Major Update Speculation: V8: Rise of the Machines! - Games

[QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;37429047]omg guise i cant even pley the norml difficulty its to hard!!!! we need an easy diffivuly[/QUOTE] gud crist, evn easy mud is two fukin herd, we ned a trainin mud for mvm ...Actually, I would like to see a training mode on MvM. That'll be interesting.

[QUOTE=AbeX300;37429104]gud crist, evn easy mud is two fukin herd, we ned a trainin mud for mvm ...Actually, I would like to see a training mode on MvM. That'll be interesting.[/QUOTE] That'd be pretty good, considering how different MvM is from regular gameplay, newer players may need to be introduced to it.

[QUOTE=ned_ballad;37428832]then I guess the vast majority of people complaing about this particular mission being too hard to play in public matches (including myself) are just terrible at the game? And even if they [i]are[/i] terrible at the game, it's still a problem. There's a huge jump in difficulty from normal to advanced. You can beat normal with a team of four engineers. Or run the crossbow as a primary, or do a bunch of other really silly stuff and still finish with an A+. Then you jump to advanced and you have to make sure you're getting at least As on every map, and making sure no upgrades are wasted at all. Waves get incredibly hard and suddenly the game jumps into huge ridiculous difficulty, even if the previous normal mission was a piece of cake.[/QUOTE] I agree with the huge jump in difficulty. Im just saying that even the advanced can be made when you do a wave more times. Then you know what you can expect and its beatable even with strangers. And to be honest, Im enjoying that difficulty. But I admit that there should be some "mid difficulty" Make normal easy and add new normal difficulty.

[QUOTE=AbeX300;37428787]+20% fire damage vulnerability[/QUOTE] - 20% slower load time - Cannot cause fall damage

You know what? The problem with the Amputator isn't no downsides is the core of the weapon: It was build for Medieval in mind and not for normal gameplay. Outside medieval yes is a way better bonesaw, but a nerf would fuck up the weapon for medieval.

[QUOTE==DarkStar=;37429438]You know what? The problem with the Amputator isn't no downsides is the core of the weapon: It was build for Medieval in mind and not for normal gameplay. Outside medieval yes is a way better bonesaw, but a nerf would fuck up the weapon for medieval.[/QUOTE] And we should care about the [i]delicate balance[/i] of Medieval mode, why?

[QUOTE==DarkStar=;37429438]You know what? The problem with the Amputator isn't no downsides is the core of the weapon: It was build for Medieval in mind and not for normal gameplay. Outside medieval yes is a way better bonesaw, but a nerf would fuck up the weapon for medieval.[/QUOTE] Not if you just make it a very minor nerf. I've heard some suggest on making it have a -10% damage penalty or have the taunt be longer; I think [b]either[/b] of those two would make a fitted nerf to it. Though, if it was built for Medieval, that brings up the following question: Why does the [b]Solemn Vow[/b] have only an upside? I mean, I can slightly understand the Third Degree (which I still believe needs a little nerf to it), since you lose the ability to be stealthy, but any good patient should know that his Medic is being attacked without being hurt themselves. But, the [b]Solemn Vow[/b]?

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;37429478]And we should care about the [i]delicate balance[/i] of Medieval mode, why?[/QUOTE] Because is a legit gamemode and people enjoy it? If you don't like it fine, isn't balanced at all but doing that would be a kick in the balls for the medics. [editline]27th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=AbeX300;37429479]Not if you just make it a very minor nerf. I've heard some suggest on making it have a -10% damage penalty or have the taunt be longer; I think [b]either[/b] of those two would make a fitted nerf to it. Though, if it was built for Medieval, that brings up the following question: Why does the [b]Solemn Vow[/b] have only an upside? I mean, I can slightly understand the Third Degree (which I still believe needs a little nerf to it), since you lose the ability to be stealthy, but any good patient should know that his Medic is being attacked without being hurt themselves. But, the [b]Solemn Vow[/b]?[/QUOTE] Solemn vow needs a nerf, is by far the second best meele for the medic since gives you a huge power and no downsides.

[QUOTE==DarkStar=;37429522]Solemn vow needs a nerf, is by far the second best meele for the medic since gives you a huge power and no downsides.[/QUOTE] Well I don't think it's a [b]huge[/b] power, but the fact that it's a straight upgrade does bother me. Maybe have it so that any enemy can see your health as well? [b]Edit:[/b] In honor of the page king, have three pictures of the straight upgrades. [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/b/b6/Backpack_Amputator.png/90px-Backpack_Amputator.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/51/Backpack_Solemn_Vow.png/90px-Backpack_Solemn_Vow.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/fe/Backpack_Third_Degree.png/90px-Backpack_Third_Degree.png[/img]

[QUOTE=AbeX300;37429557]Well I don't think it's a [b]huge[/b] power, but the fact that it's a straight upgrade does bother me. Maybe have it so that any enemy can see your health as well?[/QUOTE] That's not enough In my opinion, I mean whoop-de-freaking-do, you can see a Medic's health, who cares?

[QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;37429571]That's not enough In my opinion, I mean whoop-de-freaking-do, you can see a Medic's health, who cares?[/QUOTE] That's actually a huge downside when the other people aren't braindead. Medic is a high-priority target, if people know that he's low on health, they will close in to ensure a kill.

[QUOTE=AbeX300;37429557]Well I don't think it's a [b]huge[/b] power, but the fact that it's a straight upgrade does bother me. Maybe have it so that any enemy can see your health as well? [b]Edit:[/b] In honor of the page king, have three pictures of the straight upgrades. [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/b/b6/Backpack_Amputator.png/90px-Backpack_Amputator.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/51/Backpack_Solemn_Vow.png/90px-Backpack_Solemn_Vow.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/fe/Backpack_Third_Degree.png/90px-Backpack_Third_Degree.png[/img][/QUOTE] They all have serious downgrades. The first 2, neither of those are the Ubersaw or Vitasaw. And the Third Degree has the worst downgrade of them all, it's not the axtuinigsher. Anyway, lets talk about this for a sec. How often do you ACTUALLY see Medics healing with the Amputator? How often do you legit see Pyros getting a kill through Medibeams? I play pretty frequently. Maybe I'm on the wrong servers but I legit never see anyone doing that.

[QUOTE==DarkStar=;37429522]Because is a legit gamemode and people enjoy it? If you don't like it fine, isn't balanced at all but doing that would be a kick in the balls for the medics.[/QUOTE] 1 specialized game mode is no justification for blatant imbalance to be tolerated. I'm not saying that it needs some huge downside to neuter it, there is no ball kicking here. It needs [i]a[/i] downside, one that actually makes sure that the Bonesaw is not 100% pointless to equip unless the item servers are down.

[QUOTE=AbeX300;37429557]Well I don't think it's a [b]huge[/b] power, but the fact that it's a straight upgrade does bother me. Maybe have it so that any enemy can see your health as well? [b]Edit:[/b] In honor of the page king, have three pictures of the straight upgrades. [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/b/b6/Backpack_Amputator.png/90px-Backpack_Amputator.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/51/Backpack_Solemn_Vow.png/90px-Backpack_Solemn_Vow.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/fe/Backpack_Third_Degree.png/90px-Backpack_Third_Degree.png[/img][/QUOTE] What about this weapon, the no healing downside is only because medics slow you down, and can be considered an upside. The equalizer at the least has the downside of not doing as much damage as the shovel at full health. [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/17/Backpack_Escape_Plan.png[/t]

[QUOTE=Erfly;37429708]What about this weapon, the no healing downside is only because medics slow you down, and can be considered an upside. The equalizer at the least has the downside of not doing as much damage as the shovel at full health. [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/17/Backpack_Escape_Plan.png[/t][/QUOTE] That's what is considered a practical upgrade. In almost all situations that you'll use it, it's better than the Shovel. The situations where it's worse than the Shovel are easily avoided by not switching to it. The three that were posted have zero downsides whatsoever. Them not being Axtinguisher/Ubersaw are not downsides, stop using this justification.

[QUOTE=Erfly;37429708]What about this weapon, the no healing downside is only because medics slow you down, and can be considered an upside. The equalizer at the least has the downside of not doing as much damage as the shovel at full health. [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/17/Backpack_Escape_Plan.png[/t][/QUOTE] It isn't necessarily a [b]straight[/b] upgrade (but still far more useful than the Equalizer and Shovel, nonetheless).

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;37429637]1 specialized game mode is no justification for blatant imbalance to be tolerated. I'm not saying that it needs some huge downside to neuter it, there is no ball kicking here. It needs [i]a[/i] downside, one that actually makes sure that the Bonesaw is not 100% pointless to equip unless the item servers are down.[/QUOTE] Get this, Im not against a nerf for both the amputator and the vow. My problem with the amputator is for medieval mode is totally fine as weapon but for normal gameplay? Yes is a blatant upgrade, still there is atmost no point in using the amputator over the medigun; While you can heal alot of people in a sec, you rather use the medigun to get points for the uber. The best sane solution is making the amputador only for medieval mode or giving a very , very fair nerf (quite hard) I don't see what is the huge deal with the weapon outside medieval since even the bonesaw is better most of the time.

[QUOTE==DarkStar=;37429747]since even the bonesaw is better most of the time.[/QUOTE] I don't think there's any more logic to this world, anymore... Or am I just misinterpreting it?

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;37429725]That's what is considered a practical upgrade. In almost all situations that you'll use it, it's better than the Shovel. The situations where it's worse than the Shovel are easily avoided by not switching to it. The three that were posted have zero downsides whatsoever. Them not being Axtinguisher/Ubersaw are not downsides, stop using this justification.[/QUOTE] but really even if they have downsides honestly how often do you see people doing the taunt trick? (setup doesn't count. Ingame.) How often do you see a Pyro chain 2 kills together? Not often? How often do you see an Axtinguish? Pretty fucking regularly.

[QUOTE=AbeX300;37429755]I don't think there's any more logic to this world, anymore...[/QUOTE] Why? One of your main goals is getting the uber ready, the amputator is just a crutch weapon outside medieval.

[QUOTE==DarkStar=;37429747]My problem with the amputator is for medieval mode is totally fine as weapon but for normal gameplay? Yes is a blatant upgrade, still there is atmost no point in using the amputator over the medigun; While you can heal alot of people in a sec, you rather use the medigun to get points for the uber.[/quote] Situations where charging an uber is not as important as keeping everyone alive. Ubercharge is meaningless for a dead team and an ubercharge is more potent if you have more than just 1 person pushing. [quote] The best sane solution is making the amputador only for medieval mode or giving a very , very fair nerf (quite hard)[/quote] No weapons will be restricted by game mode, end of story. And making reasonable downsides is not a difficult task in the slightest -- even something as subtle as slower swing speed. [quote] I don't see what is the huge deal with the weapon outside medieval since even the bonesaw is better most of the time.[/QUOTE] What?

[QUOTE==DarkStar=;37429783]Why? One of your main goals is getting the uber ready, the amputator is just a crutch weapon outside medieval.[/QUOTE] But what makes the Bonesaw [b]better[/b] than the Amputator? [QUOTE=Psychopath12;37429809]What?[/QUOTE] My thoughts exactly.

[QUOTE=AbeX300;37429813]But what makes the Bonesaw [b]better[/b] than the Amputator? My thoughts exactly.[/QUOTE] The taunt, which really isn't worth it.

[QUOTE=SomePony;37429835]The taunt, which really isn't worth it.[/QUOTE] How is the Bonesaw's taunt [b]BETTER[/b] than the Amputator's taunt? They are both almost the exact same thing, the only difference being that the Amputator's taunt [b]heals[/b], and the Bonesaw doesn't.

[QUOTE=Sardonus;37429779]honestly how often do you see people doing the taunt trick? (setup doesn't count. Ingame.) How often do you see a Pyro chain 2 kills together? Not often? How often do you see an Axtinguish? Pretty fucking regularly.[/QUOTE] Medics seldom melee other people due to the high risk involved for such a fragile class. I've seen a number of medics using the taunt to save 3 people at once around a corner, it's a decent triage item if your team can cover you while you taunt. Just because you don't see that happening doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Most pyros don't use the Third Degree is why you don't see chain kills. They would rather have reliable damage than a mechanic that is dependent on meleeing someone who has a medibeam connecting them to someone. The fact that you see more axtinguishes means absolutely nothing. That's like saying that you see more Minigun kills than GRU kills -- one is potent and designed for killing in combat, the other serves a completely different purpose. In the Third Degree's case, it's to disrupt a healing beam while pressuring everyone who is connected, the killing is icing on that cake. The problem with the Third Degree is that it's trying to be an offensive weapon, but the Pyro already has good enough offensive melees, it's just too difficult to create one that can compete, offensively.

[QUOTE=AbeX300;37429813]But what makes the Bonesaw [b]better[/b] than the Amputator? My thoughts exactly.[/QUOTE] The amputator outside medieval contradicts the two most [b]basic[/b] goals and rules for any Medic: - Keep yourself alive the longest possible avoiding any wrong move (aka taunting). - Always rack up points for your uber. Then, the weapon is a direct upgrade for the bonesaw? Sure thing and should be nerfed. But why someone would use the weapon for normal gameplay? I don't know. At least Im never touch the amputator outside medieval because is pointless.

[QUOTE=AbeX300;37429557]Well I don't think it's a [b]huge[/b] power, but the fact that it's a straight upgrade does bother me. Maybe have it so that any enemy can see your health as well? [b]Edit:[/b] In honor of the page king, have three pictures of the straight upgrades. [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/b/b6/Backpack_Amputator.png/90px-Backpack_Amputator.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/51/Backpack_Solemn_Vow.png/90px-Backpack_Solemn_Vow.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/fe/Backpack_Third_Degree.png/90px-Backpack_Third_Degree.png[/img][/QUOTE] You know, I once posted an idea for a good re-baancing of the Medic melee weapons, people seemed to like those.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;37429870]*stuff*[/QUOTE] That, and it's usually faster to just run into the Medic+patient combo with a flamethrower and hope for the best.

[QUOTE=DatWut?;37429887]You know, I once posted an idea for a good re-baancing of the Medic melee weapons, people seemed to like those.[/QUOTE] Please, for the love of god, tell us your re-balancing suggestions. Maybe that'll put the debating to an end. [QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;37429900]That, and it's usually faster to just run into the Medic+patient combo with a flamethrower and hope for the best.[/QUOTE] I can see that. Though, the fact that you can just swipe a critical hit on the patient to instantly kill the healer (which is obviously not possible to do with a Fire Ax) is just terrifying.

Quick question: "Why are we comparing the Amputator to the Bonesaw" I barely see folks using the Amp's taunt outside of Medieval mode, if anything they tend to have the Amp and the crossbow to get the 1+ health per second and heal at a longer range towards teammates.