Stuff that annoys you in TF2: Constructor doesn't make this thread Edition

[TheCalzone]

[QUOTE=NateDude;35586025]How about we remove the Degreasers Airblast, or atleast remove it's ability to knock back PLAYERS.

That way you can still quick-switch-(actual-skill) projectiles coming towards you, but not fuck up players with the Reserve Flare-Stinguisher.[/QUOTE]

how about that doesn't solve the problem because the Flare-Stinguisher is the problem

[NateDude]

You can still fuck them up, but the desoriantation is [B]completely fucking overkill,[/B] and I MAIN PYRO.

[editline]15th April 2012[/editline]

[QUOTE=The Calzone;35586043]how about that doesn't solve the problem because the Flare-Stinguisher is the problem[/QUOTE]

No? Well, the Flare's crits are, but the Axtinguisher actually is fair to an extent. The pyro found you, and you didn't notice. Without airblast, he can't disorient you to shit.

And adding on that:

[B]Axtinguisher[/B]
-100% Critical Hits Vs. Non burning players.
+100% Critical Hits Vs. Burning players who have been on fire for [U]3 seconds.[/U]
-50% Damage Vs. Non burning players.

So you atleast have a chance.

[Hell-met]

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;35582097]Shit like this:

[t]http://filesmelt.com/dl/2012-04-15_000021.jpg[/t]

Is fucking unacceptable.[/QUOTE]

friends playing together in a team-oriented game

how dare they

[shadowscion]

[QUOTE=NateDude;35586051]
+100% Critical Hits Vs. Burning players who have been on fire for [U]3 seconds.[/U]
[/QUOTE]

So then people can return to bitching about "W+M1"?

[GastricTank]

I've been seeing some more Degreaser+Axetinguisher hate again on here.

I necessarily don't like how people think it's balanced and fair because "You can simply just not get in their flamethrower range, boom, countered." That's like saying "Never get in a Sniper's line of sight, or never get caught when you're a Spy". It's bound to happen eventually, there is nothing you can do about out-of-the-blue occurrence.

If he is actually ambushing, good for him, as the Pyro is doing his job. Although, as stated before, he has changed into a psudo-Spy for taking out key targets in a seconds time. But if you simply bump into the Pyro head on without warning, you should at least have a chance to fight back, although this usually isn't the case, as the reaction time is so limited. During the time you are being puffed in the air, you have a split second to assess the situation, turn if needed, and adjust your aim, and shoot, and pray that the Pyro has low enough HP that you'll kill him in 1 or 2 shots, provided you actually hit him, as you probably won't get any more in. Not exactly sporting, it's too much to fight against 1 on 1.

As for W+M1'ing, there really isn't anything to complain about. It at least gives you a fighting chance (more than a split seconds time, without being immobilized) against the Pyro, and is often out-maneuvered.

At least charging Demomen have to re-charge their insta-crit abilities, even if there are some bugs in the system. And Dr. Enforcicle Spies are no more than pests running around picking up all the ammo boxes.

[Slapdown3]

[QUOTE=NateDude;35586051]
Axtinguisher
-100% Critical Hits Vs. Non burning players.
+100% Critical Hits Vs. Burning players who have been on fire for [U]3 seconds.[/U]
-50% Damage Vs. Non burning players.

So you atleast have a chance.[/QUOTE]

Those are some pretty good stats
Here I have an idea too

[b]The Axtinguisher[/b]
Shit
Stats
All
The
Way

There, since its shit no one will ever play pyro because it takes 3 seconds to kill someone with the flamethrower anyways
Whats the point of the degreasers switch speed if they don't need to switch for three seconds anyways? They are just going to use the backburner and kill you in 2.98 seconds compared to 2.99.

[Hell-met]

axtinguisher by itself is fine. The standard switch time is long enough to get blasted to bits in before you land a hit.

the degreaser is the one to blame. A good way to understand why the degreaser is unbalanced is to think of it this way : what if all classes had a primary unlock that did the same thing? A scattergun, rocketlauncher, minigun, grenadelauncher, shotgun, syringun, sniper or revolver that have +65% switch time at the cost of -5% damage.

It would be downright broken and overpowered on literally every single character. But since it's for pyro, apparentely it's okay.

[Eriorguez]

The Degreaser needs EXTENSIVE damage nerf, to the point that it wouldn't be a viable way as a standalone weapon, its only power being combos, AND shorter afterburn duration, so you need to act fast. Maybe even have its afterburn not damage enemies, just light them on fire.

But then I dunno how the Gas Jockey set will behave...

Would moving the bullet vulnerability to it from the set would help?

[GastricTank]

Ah, thinking up fixed stats for the Degreaser and/or Axetinguisher is really difficult.

Maybe the Degreaser could de-buff crit boosts on the Pyro's other weapons?

This would force those who wish to "sting" to use the other, much more forgiving Flamethrowers.

[AlphaAGENT]

[QUOTE=Fillmore;35585754]Probably it's the "shield charge needs to recharge" thing. Imagine a Demoknight who can just pull out crits out of his black ass everytime he feels like it.[/QUOTE]

[img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/c3/Item_icon_Splendid_Screen.png/100px-Item_icon_Splendid_Screen.png[/img]
[img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/9/98/Item_icon_Persian_Persuader.png/100px-Item_icon_Persian_Persuader.png[/img]

[Bazkip]

Can we all just unanimously agree that it's overpowered and that we hate and and move on?
I'm starting to get tired of this thread being only about the Degreaser and Axtinguisher

[DainBramageStud]

[QUOTE=Hell-met;35586094]friends playing together in a team-oriented game

how dare they[/QUOTE]

It would be more fun for everyone involved if they split themselves evenly between the teams. I'm not objecting to them having fun, I'm objecting to them having fun at the expense of everyone else on the server, including the other people on blue.

[marioinatophat]

[QUOTE=Hell-met;35586298]axtinguisher by itself is fine. The standard switch time is long enough to get blasted to bits in before you land a hit.

the degreaser is the one to blame. A good way to understand why the degreaser is unbalanced is to think of it this way : what if all classes had a primary unlock that did the same thing? A scattergun, rocketlauncher, minigun, grenadelauncher, shotgun, syringun, sniper or revolver that have +65% switch time at the cost of -5% damage.

It would be downright broken and overpowered on literally every single character. But since it's for pyro, apparentely it's okay.[/QUOTE]

I don't even see the Axtinguisher as a very important weapon, I mean, it does grant a very quick and powerful kill, but I can do just the same with degreaser/shotgun, so why not use an actual useful tool like the Homewrecker that will actually help your team? :v:

[shadowscion]

[QUOTE=Bazkip;35586621]Can we all just unanimously agree that it's overpowered and that we hate and and move on?
I'm starting to get tired of this thread being only about the Degreaser and Axtinguisher[/QUOTE]

No, because it isn't.

[FuryBlitz]

This was said before but people who taunt after they kill. I was sniper and just sniping my own business but a sniper headshot me and [b]taunted[/b]. I say to him, "you shouldnt have done that son" and he replies with "oh you're a tough guy." I proceeded to dominate him. We later solved our differences and it was a good round after that.

[NateDude]

Alright, actually, let me think of some reworks for most pyro Weapons.

[B]Phlogistinator[/B]
[i]No Ammo: Instead, an Overheat bar, which prevents you from flaming for 5 seconds after flaming for 8 seconds, and cools down in 2 seconds. [i]This encourages pausing and not just constantly flaming.[/i]
[i]Mmph bar fills when 300 Damage is done, and once activated, forces Pyro to taunt. The Taunt gives him a 40% Damage reduction, and a ring of fire appears around his feet to indicate it. During and After the taunt, he has the HP Regeneration of a Medic until Mmph runs out. For 3 Seconds, the Flamethrower Crits. For 8 Seconds afterwards, the Flamethrower Minicrits. During the Mmph time, it cannot overheat.
[-]No Airblast
[-]-10% Damage

[B]Degreaser[/B]
[+]+50% Weapon Switch Speed
[+]+10% Direct Damage
[-]-35% Afterburn Time
[-]-25% Afterburn Damage
[-]-Cannot Reflect Players

[B]Backburner[/B]
[+]+100% Criticals from the back. [I]Back hitbox is widened.[/I]
[-]+100% Airblast Cost
[-]Airblasted Projectiles do not Minicrit.
[i]Axtinguishing Players with the Airblast reduces that Airblasts cost by 50%

[B]Stock Flamethrower[/B]
[I]Hidden Changes:
[+]Particle Damage is changed to [url=http://i.imgur.com/TGICe.png]this.[/url] (Applys to all Flamethrowers)[/I]

[B]Reserve Shooter:[/B]
-stats untouched-

[B]Flare Gun[/B]
[-]-25% Afterburn Time
[i]Burning targets Minicrit if hit with the Flare.
[+]+25% Damage

[B]Detonator[/B]
[-]+25% Self Damage
[-]Does not Minicrit burning targets.
[i]Alt-Fire: Flare explodes, setting targets ablaze.
[I]Hidden Changes:
[+]Flare Jumping buffed to former Glory
On Setting 2+ Targets Ablaze at once: Minicrit
On Setting 5+ Targets Ablaze at once: Full Crit[/I]

[B]ManMelter[/B]
[i]Alt-Fire: Creates a Vacuum that removes a Friendly's Afterburn, granting the weapon one garunteed Mini-crit
[+]Does not Require Ammo
[-]Does not Minicrit Burning Targets
[I]Hidden Changes:
[i]Added an Animation to indicate when it's ready to fire again.[/I]

[B]Axtinguisher[/B]
[-]-100% Critical Hits Vs. Non burning players.
[-]+100% Critical Hits Vs. Burning players who have been on fire for 3 seconds. Before 3 seconds have passed, Minicrits burning players.
[-]-50% Damage Vs. Non burning players.

[B]Backscratcher[/B]
[+]Health Gained from Medkits increases as Health Lowers
[-]Health Gained from Medics/Dispensers decreases as Health Lowers
[+]+30% Damage Done

[B]Homewrecker[/B]
-stats unchanged due to demand-

[B]Third-Degree[/B]
[i]Damages all players connected Via medibeams
[i]On third Consecutive hit: Full Critical
[-]No random critical hits
[-]-10% Damage Done

[B]Powerjack[/B]
[i]On Kill: +75 Health is Gained. Can overheal.
[-]No random crits.

[B]Sharpened Volcano Fragment:[/B]
[i]On hit: Set's enemy Ablaze
[-]No Random Criticals
[-]-10% Damage is done

[H2]As someone who Mains as Pyro, these changes will benefit both Pyro Players and their enemies![/H2]

[Bazkip]

There's nothing wrong with the Flare Gun, you leave that alone

[QUOTE=unrezt;35586656]No, because it isn't.[/QUOTE]

Not entirely but we do talk about it far too often

[NateDude]

[QUOTE=Bazkip;35586864]There's nothing wrong with the Flare Gun, you leave that alone

Not entirely but we do talk about it far too often[/QUOTE]

Full crits is a problem.

And if it's not to much to ask, what do you guys think of my changes? Comments/Criticism? I think they're balanced, but as someone who main's Pyro, making weapons weaker is difficult. I don't like to think I made them weaker, but more fair, by changing up many of their core elements.

[Hell-met]

flaregun is okay. A very short-range shotgun blast (which will happen because you can pin people to walls) deals 70-80, which is nearly the same as the flaregun without all the downsides that come with the latter.

interestingly the flaregun is the only weapon in the game to have gained countless buffs without any negative fix.

[NateDude]

[QUOTE=Hell-met;35586962]flaregun is okay. A very short-range shotgun blast (which will happen because you can pin people to walls) deals 70-80, which is nearly the same as the flaregun without all the downsides that come with the latter.

interestingly the flaregun is the only weapon in the game to have gained countless buffs without any negative fix.[/QUOTE]

What if someone slapped on Removing or Reducing damage fall off on it? That might even it out. (Reffering to my only-minicrits-version).

[Bazkip]

[QUOTE=NateDude;35586899]Full crits is a problem.

And if it's not to much to ask, what do you guys think of my changes? Comments/Criticism? I think they're balanced, but as someone who main's Pyro, making weapons weaker is difficult. I don't like to think I made them weaker, but more fair, by changing up many of their core elements.[/QUOTE]

A full crit that only does 90 damage and requires you to properly aim in order to achieve.

It really isn't a problem.

[wlzshroom]

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;35586382]The Degreaser needs EXTENSIVE damage nerf, to the point that it wouldn't be a viable way as a standalone weapon, its only power being combos, AND shorter afterburn duration, so you need to act fast. Maybe even have its afterburn not damage enemies, just light them on fire.

But then I dunno how the Gas Jockey set will behave...

Would moving the bullet vulnerability to it from the set would help?[/QUOTE]

when not in conjunction with the axtinguisher, the degreaser is actually mostly subpar. i mainly play gas jockey pyro (i got a strange medic gun and a dirty attendant in return for a genuine something-or-other, shit trade but it was like a year ago) and a majority of my points either come from assists or shotty/reserve-shooter kills.

i almost never use the powerjack but it's an alright weapon if i need that extra health

[Slapdown3]

[QUOTE=NateDude;35586802]
:words:
[H2]As someone who Mains as Pyro, these changes will benefit both Pyro Players and their enemies![/H2][/QUOTE]

Almost all of those are the worst ideas I have ever heard of, why in the hell would you nerf the homewrecker?
THE ONLY WEAPON THAT ACTUALLY SUPPORTS ANY OTHER CLASS IS MADE WORSE?
IT WASN'T MADE TO ATTACK, ITS DEFENSIVE! HOW COULD YOU DESECRATE SUCH A BEAUTIFUL WEAPON!?

Backscratcher nerf is good, great job.
Third-Degree, great buff even though its impossibly situational and is almost a complete buff on nocrit servers.

None of the other weapons would benefit the pyro, only their enemies.
Making a weapon weaker is not fixing it, THATS A NERF.

And nocrit stats make no difference if you're on a good server.

[QUOTE=wlzshroom;35587236]if anything that the pyro has needs a nerf, it's definitely the phlog. i did some testing and you need to do around 300 damage to fill up the bar which is a little ridiculous for guaranteed crits and a health refill. and WHY does doing the taunt to initiate it make you near invincible? it that's the only thing that's taken out of it i'd be quite happy[/QUOTE]

The Phlogistinator requires 225 fire damage which means you have to roll with a det or flare gun or risk close range combat without a proper way to escape if anything goes wrong, no airblast is probably the biggest nerf you can give to a flamethrower. The health refill and invulnerability only affect the taunt which is about two seconds, if you're impatient you are going to end up thinking you can kill a taunting phlog.
I've used the phlog for about 180 hours on my pyro and I can safely say it has more downsides than any other flamethrower but one awesome ability, the ability to be actually useful without having to depend on secondaries or melee.
I've found a few weaknesses so I'll share, Phlog pyros can't do shit to demomen or soldiers without them first getting in range, Phlog pyros can't even phase a heavy without crits nor can they escape from them without airblast and they can't kill other pyros using stock, backburner or degreaser since they all do more damage.

And I've mentioned this before but, if you're out of range of the phlogistinator its the same as it having no crits since it can't hit you at all, the crits don't affect secondaries.

[wlzshroom]

if anything that the pyro has needs a nerf, it's definitely the phlog. i did some testing and you need to do around 300 damage to fill up the bar which is a little ridiculous for guaranteed crits and a health refill. and WHY does doing the taunt to initiate it make you near invincible? it that's the only thing that's taken out of it i'd be quite happy

[Guitarplayer213]

[QUOTE=wlzshroom;35587236]if anything that the pyro has needs a nerf, it's definitely the phlog. i did some testing and you need to do around 300 damage to fill up the bar which is a little ridiculous for guaranteed crits and a health refill. and WHY does doing the taunt to initiate it make you near invincible? it that's the only thing that's taken out of it i'd be quite happy[/QUOTE]

Yeah but compare the phlog to the normal degreaser combos. Its harder to successfully w m1 than it is to use a combo or something. The crits aren't that bad, sure they're annoying, but no more than getting axetinguished in the back. The only change I would think would be good would be increased fire damage necessary. And I think Nate said something about an overheat meter, that'd be cool too.

[NateDude]

All good points. I'll tweak the stats a bit. For now, I found an interesting thread on SPUF (Don't hurt me) that has a good way to increase Pyro's damage output without changing his Flamethrower's actual damage.

[QUOTE=chzchan;30298267][url="http://k003.kiwi6.com/hotlink/56rq98udkz/08_sunnyside.mp3"][size=1]Thrrrrreeaaaad music.[/size][/url]

Okay, since my other thread wasn't [I]interesting[/I] enough, I decided to get off my ass and actually write this out.

Damage fall-off for the Flamethrower is calculated using "particle lifetime." The longer the flame particle is in existence, the less damage it does.

I've been reading arguments concerning this. I see some people think that it'd be okay if the Flamethrower had no damage fall off. I don't think that's a good idea. It'd just give more people something to complain about. I have also seen suggestions involving decreased damage fall-off or decreased particle lifetime and increased particle speed. That seems like a bit too much to ask for.

I've come up with something that, although subtle, would really change things around concerning the Pyro's damage output within its domain without really changing the way particles move/act or particle base damage.

See, the damage calculation for the flame particles right now is strictly linear. This means that damage changes at a static rate based on flame particle lifetime.

[url="http://i.imgur.com/TGICe.png"]What I am suggesting is a change to this.[/url] I want this rate to change as the lifetime increases. The rate of change will start out slow, but pick up speed as the particle reaches the end of its life.

What this would do is extend the range at which the Pyro can deal good damage without a flat increase to the base damage. As you saw in the graph above, the starting and ending damage values stay exactly the same.

[url="http://i.imgur.com/Istpl.png"]With this change, the change in the Pyro's domain would look like this.[/url]

That's about it.[/QUOTE]

[Totenkreuz]

The plong should have 600 damage requirement like the buff banner.

[NateDude]

[QUOTE=Totenkreuz;35587496]The plong should have 600 damage requirement like the buff banner.[/QUOTE]

The Buff Banner should have the 300 Damage Requirement like the Phlog.

[Slapdown3]

[QUOTE=NateDude;35587518]The Buff Banner should have the 300 Damage Requirement like the Phlog.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Totenkreuz;35587496]The plong should have 600 damage requirement like the buff banner.[/QUOTE]

Phlog requires 225 damage and affects the pyro, Buff Banner influences anyone near the soldier and can cause way more damage than a pyro. +doesn't make the soldier a sitting duck.

[Totenkreuz]

Guess you're right, but still the current number is still too low. If one heavy encounter can give you crits there's a problem.