Major Update Speculation Thread v12: Layoffs Edition

[Psychopath]

[QUOTE=LightFlock;39716104]The thing is, that's like the entire complaint for Demoknight. He has no explosives. If people want to be able to play the masked guy who shoots people from afar, then snorts while he laughs at his victim; why shouldn't they be allowed to?[/QUOTE]

Because unlike Demoknight, swapping to Run&Gun Spy is literally 1 loadout slot away, and you can mix it into the rest of the Spy gameplay as well.

It's very possible for an Enforcer spy to still go about stabbing people, but if he ever wants to shoot at people, he has zero reason to not do so since he has a gun that's more powerful than his stock revolver. It's a brainless and practical upgrade, you sacrifice NOTHING in order to get a damage bonus. The biggest thing you're actually losing is the option to whip out the Ambassador or one of the other non-stock revolvers. The slower firing speed, as you even said, is laughable because people pause to [i]aim[/i] between their shots. Random crits have no place in this discussion, so don't even attempt to bring those up.

For Demoknight, you sacrifice [i]what is arguably considered the most powerful weapon in the entire game[/i], just so you can run around and lop people's heads off. During TF2's development, the development team even nicknamed the demoman's projectiles as "winbombs," it is the only weapon in the entire game that has had nothing but [i]nerfs[/i] since it was added to the game in 2007, and yet people still call it overpowered. You lose this weapon for durability and melee potency.

Demoknight is a subclass, Enforcer Spy is not a subclass. Learn the difference before running your mouth.

[alsoodani]

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;39715786]The Enforcer is still like that now. Hell, the entire premise of the gun is to directly [i]reward[/i] the Spy for fighting people instead of doing what he should be doing: stealth.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=PSI Guy;39715912]Spies are proof that the game has gone far away from it's roots. You can play run and gun commando spy with Enforcer, Spycicle and Dead Ringer and get just as many, if not more kills then you would trying to be stealthy.

After all, why bother being stealthy when being obnoxious works just as well?[/QUOTE]

Though you can directly fight people with Post-nerf enforcer, it's a really poor strategy to use. You have to be disguised or cloaked to not be shot at in the first place and your first shot does less damage. It also shoots slower. If I were going Rambo style spy, it'd be with the regular revolver. The post-nerf enforcer made it into a "shit I bumped into someone, let's back away as I give damage." With the slow shooting combined with the 125 health of the class, it's a bad idea to go Rambo post-nerf with the Enforcer.

As for using the dead ringer as an excuse to allow for weapons that decrease cloak: as a major spy user, the dead ringer's cloak time is already [B]very fairly[/B] low enough. Pro: It saves you from death Con: fair trade off of short cloak Con: everyone and their grandma will be actively looking out for you or searching for you.

If you get shot by the item reducing cloak before you activate dead ringer, than you are now a temporarily useless spy. You can't pull out the dead ringer at reduced cloak. If you get hit by the item and you activate dead ringer, you might as well just suicide and give it another go, because you're about to die real fast, real soon.

The game is designed that if you appear as a spy to the enemy team, you die extremely fast (consider the HP of Spy). Sure they gave you some safe-guards (spycicle, enforcer/revolver) when you do get detected but all it generally does is prolong your death unless you are in a 1v1 situation which is almost never when the spy is in enemy territory.

That's why I feel that the Pomson is more of a BS weapon against the Spy than the Medic. Medic has a buddy to protect him while he regains that percentage. Spies just die b/c they turn useless with weak counters.

[AbeX300]

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;39716082]The gun is bad because it encourages and [i]enforces[/i] a gun-centered Spy playstyle.[/QUOTE]

That's a horrible [i]pun[/i]ishment for him. :v:

But in seriousness, while we're on the topic of changing stats:

The Spy-cicle's "protection against pyros" mechanic should be modified. As opposed to completely nullifying fire damage for a short period of time, the effect should provide resistance to afterburn, and -75% or -50% damage from fire. However, the period should be extended from 2 seconds to 3 seconds.

[LightFlock]

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;39716172]Because unlike Demoknight, swapping to Run&Gun Spy is literally 1 loadout slot away, and you can mix it into the rest of the Spy gameplay as well.

It's very possible for an Enforcer spy to still go about stabbing people, but if he ever wants to shoot at people, he has zero reason to not do so since he has a gun that's more powerful than his stock revolver. It's a brainless and practical upgrade, you sacrifice NOTHING in order to get a damage bonus. The biggest thing you're actually losing is the option to whip out the Ambassador or one of the other non-stock revolvers. The slower firing speed, as you even said, is laughable because people pause to [i]aim[/i] between their shots. Random crits have no place in this discussion, so don't even attempt to bring those up.

For Demoknight, you sacrifice [i]what is arguably considered the most powerful weapon in the entire game[/i], just so you can run around and lop people's heads off. During TF2's development, the development team even nicknamed the demoman's projectiles as "winbombs," it is the only weapon in the entire game that has had nothing but [i]nerfs[/i] since it was added to the game in 2007, and yet people still call it overpowered. You lose this weapon for durability and melee potency.

Demoknight is a subclass, Enforcer Spy is not a subclass. Learn the difference before running your mouth.[/QUOTE]

I just want to state first, as of your last sentence, this is a debate, not an arguement. : )

Sure, it's not entirely sub, but Valve can easily sort a way to "add more uniqueness". Demoknight can still have explosives for one, so I must admit it would be an interesting, and unique addition if there was an actual "butterknife" added, granting some sort of primary bonus, while swapping in whatever changes make the enforcer reasonable without rooty, but also reasonable for rooty if you use the "butterknife".

For example, the charge'n'targe. The Eyelander has it's uses without the charge, but it's more effective with the Charge.

[Psychopath]

[QUOTE=alsoodani;39716189]Though you can directly fight people with Post-nerf enforcer, it's a really poor strategy to use. You have to be disguised or cloaked to not be shot at in the first place and your first shot does less damage. It also shoots slower. If I were going Rambo style spy, it'd be with the regular revolver. The post-nerf enforcer made it into a "shit I bumped into someone, let's back away as I give damage."[/QUOTE]

As said above, people pause to [i]aim[/i] between shots unless they're in a position where they're going to die within half a second anyway. The firing speed penalty is laughable at best. The Ubersaw is treated the same way.

Also, it's very easy to drop your disguise without alerting people to your presence, just disguising as a friendly spy will strip your cardboard mask from your face. If you don't want to fumble around with that, just slash the knife once and swap to the gun. The downside of having lower damage while disguised is a joke since it's so easy to ditch the disguise status in favor of free extra damage.

[LightFlock]

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;39716248]As said above, people pause to [i]aim[/i] between shots unless they're in a position where they're going to die within half a second anyway. The firing speed penalty is laughable at best. The Ubersaw is treated the same way.

Also, it's very easy to drop your disguise without alerting people to your presence, just disguising as a friendly spy will strip your cardboard mask from your face. If you don't want to fumble around with that, just slash the knife once and swap to the gun. The downside of having lower damage while disguised is a joke since it's so easy to ditch the disguise status in favor of free extra damage.[/QUOTE]

Would it be reasonable to meet both "playstyles" in the middle? An Enforcer that can back you up if you miss your stab, but also one that's still reasonable at damage output? Or would that be considerably overpowered, considering you can then run most classes with a fair chance if you miss your stab.

[AbeX300]

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;39716172]It's a brainless and practical upgrade, you sacrifice NOTHING in order to get a damage bonus.[/QUOTE]

Okay, wait, I'm gonna have to stop you [b]right there[/b].

It is [b]nowhere[/b] near an upgrade. +20% damage bonus alongside 20% slower firing speed. Do the math; 1.2x damage divided by 1.2x attack interval equals 1. As for the Revolver, 1.0x damage divided by 1.0x equals 1, which is obvious.

In fact, if anything, it's a [b]slight[/b] downgrade, considering that the damage bonus does not apply when disguised, and you lack the ability to get in cheap critical shots.

I fully support your idea of swapping from "damage bonus undisguised" to "damage bonus disguised", but I figured that the damage would be increased from there.

So it'd be like this:

[+] +30% damage bonus while disguised
[-] 20% slower firing speed
[-] No random critical hits

I can deal with that.

[LightFlock]

[QUOTE=AbeX300;39716289]Okay, wait, I'm gonna have to stop you [b]right there[/b].

It is [b]nowhere[/b] near an upgrade. +20% damage bonus alongside 20% slower firing speed. Do the math; 1.2x damage divided by 1.2x attack interval equals 1. As for the Revolver, 1.0x damage divided by 1.0x equals 1, which is obvious.

In fact, if anything, it's a [b]slight[/b] downgrade, considering that the damage bonus does not apply when disguised, and you lack the ability to get in cheap critical shots.

I fully support your idea of swapping from "damage bonus undisguised" to "damage bonus disguised", but I figured that the damage would be increased from there.

So it'd be like this:

[+] +30% damage bonus while disguised
[-] 20% slower firing speed
[-] No random critical hits

I can deal with that.[/QUOTE]

This sounds completely useless to me.

1. While disguised, when the enemy "doesn't notice" you you might aswell be using the Ambassador to get much healthier damage.

2. Currently, it's a "oh look you failed your stab" revolver, looking at those stats, it means completely nothing of that now.

[AbeX300]

[QUOTE=LightFlock;39716306]
1. While disguised, when the enemy "doesn't notice" you you might aswell be using the [U]Ambassador to get health damage[/U].[/QUOTE]

What.

[alsoodani]

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;39716248]If you don't want to fumble around with that, just slash the knife once and swap to the gun. The downside of having lower damage while disguised is a joke since it's so easy to ditch the disguise status in favor of free extra damage.[/QUOTE]

I have the impression that the time spent slashing, switching to the enforcer, and the firing with slower shots was less advantageous [B]vs.[/B] than just shooting the regular revolver straight from disguise to shoot someone.

Edit: Guess I need to test those two methods again, as I currently favor the regular revolver.

[LightFlock]

[QUOTE=AbeX300;39716313]What.[/QUOTE]

That is the absolute stupidest brainderp I have done. I was saying you might aswell use the ambassador for "much healthier damage".

[Barobax]

Major Update Speculation Thread v12: Theory Fortress 2

[alsoodani]

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;39715493]Regarding the supposedly new Adult Swim items posted a few pages back, I would like to see some items from superjail. I was thinking the hat, the glasses and the suit of the warden for spy.[/QUOTE]

You forgot someone:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/31BzJyR.png[/IMG]

[E_K_M]

[img]http://filesmelt.com/dl/assfaggots1.jpg[/img]
i guess more skullgirl hats?

[A B.A. Survivor]

Valve's TF2 Weapon Balancing Guide:
1. If there is a positive attribute that meaningfully separates a weapon from others, add enough negative attributes so that the positive one is canceled out and no one cares about it
2. +/- 10% is good enough to be considered a new weapon
3. Remember, when in doubt, no random critical hits!

[01271]

[QUOTE=AbeX300;39716289]Okay, wait, I'm gonna have to stop you [b]right there[/b].

It is [b]nowhere[/b] near an upgrade. +20% damage bonus alongside 20% slower firing speed. Do the math; 1.2x damage divided by 1.2x attack interval equals 1. As for the Revolver, 1.0x damage divided by 1.0x equals 1, which is obvious.

In fact, if anything, it's a [b]slight[/b] downgrade, considering that the damage bonus does not apply when disguised, and you lack the ability to get in cheap critical shots.
[/QUOTE]

[img] http://filesmelt.com/dl/Untitled-1651.png[/img]

[The Baconator]

I want a Space Ghost mask for Heavy or Spy

And a Brak mask for like Heavy or Scout

[Psychopath]

[QUOTE=LightFlock;39716306]2. Currently, it's a "oh look you failed your stab" revolver, looking at those stats, it means completely nothing of that now.[/QUOTE]

That may have been the intention, but it's being used exclusively by players who do one of the following:

*Never disguise in the first place, just running and shooting like a Scout.
*Get caught way too often and just resort to self defense, getting few stabs at all, and the ones they get are on oblivious players.

It disturbs the meta of the Spy class. As a stealth class, being caught should be something that you never want to happen. It's a risk-reward game where the reward is a swift death, either for the victim or the Spy -- he's fragile for a reason. Trying to play through Metal Gear Solid without caring about being caught will make you lose, why should Spy get an exception?

3 shots with the revolver is what it takes to down a light class that is onto the Spy's game. It takes about the same amount of time for those light classes to kill him. The beefier classes can tank that damage while churning out more damage in return, as such it's much riskier to try to take those classes head-on.

Admittedly, the Ambassador did disrupt this metagame that the Spy had by allowing the Spy to assassinate players with a well-placed shot to the cranium. The lengthy cooldown between headshots and the damage penalty made it a very slow-going gun, where patience rewards with higher damage output. This still places risk onto the Spy as he has to either wait for the cooldown or try to gun it with a weaker gun. This was accepted because it rewarded aim.

Enforcer disrupts the meta in the same way, except it doesn't require aiming at a specific part of the hitbox, just hit the target and it does boosted damage. Taping the firing button down does nothing in terms of risk assessment on the Spy's part, it's just hit or miss compared to the Ambassador's headshot, weakshot, missed headshot, miss weakshot. The Enforcer doesn't add any sort of strategy or thought to the Spy like a good sidegrade should. L'Etranger makes you mindful of cloak management, Diamondback encourages getting aggressive towards enemy buildings, Ambassador is the assassination with aim gun, and Revolver is the gold standard.

Like almost all of the Uber Update weapons, the Enforcer is uninspired and offers little if anything good to the metagame.

[PSI Guy]

enforser 2.0

+100% damage bonus while disguised
-40% firing rate
-25% damage penalty while undisguised

there. good for one shot catching people offguard, shit otherwise. numbers can be adjusted.

[alsoodani]

[QUOTE=PSI Guy;39716498]enforser 2.0

+100% damage bonus while disguised
-40% firing rate
-25% damage penalty while undisguised

there. good for one shot catching people offguard, shit otherwise. numbers can be adjusted.[/QUOTE]

With those stats it should be renamed "The Cornered Spy".

[Mr. Magoolachub]

the scout should have a gun with one bullet with which to shoot himself

[AbeX300]

[QUOTE=Mr. Magoolachub;39716638]the scout should have a gun with one bullet, with which to shoot himself[/QUOTE]

The Boston Blaster? :v:

[E_K_M]

[QUOTE=Mr. Magoolachub;39716638]the scout should have a gun with one bullet, with which to shoot himself[/QUOTE]
scout: [b]PERSONA[/b]
[t]http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/16500000/Persona-3-shin-megami-tensei-16599043-1920-1200.jpg[/t]

[CapitalismHo!]

[QUOTE=Mr. Magoolachub;39716638]the scout should have a gun with one bullet, with which to shoot himself[/QUOTE]

"Strange Counter: How Many Scouts You've Made Suicide"
a new purpose in life

[Revolver Osha]

So about those skullgirl hats.

How many do you think we'll get? Will it be one of those ones where they add like 5 hats and 3 weapons with stats? Thated be pretty cool.

[Psyke]

[img]http://puu.sh/28qYh[/img]

Word must have got out about the exclusive hat.

[zipziggy]

why not just give everything back to how it was and just add increased cloak drain rate so it has a real downside with ALL the watches, even the crutchringer

[jimbobjoe1234]

[QUOTE=psyke;39716792][img]http://puu.sh/28qYh[/img]

Word must have got out about the exclusive hat.[/QUOTE]

Throwing in the words [I]free[/I] and [I]hat[/I] is a great way to gain support. Also the word [I]exclusive[/I] might also have helped.

[alsoodani]

[QUOTE=psyke;39716792][img]http://puu.sh/28qYh[/img]

Word must have got out about the exclusive hat.[/QUOTE]

I could never justify buying a console just for this game, so I'm just super glad it's coming to PC.

I used to be a huge Marvel vs Capcom 2 fan back in the day, so to have a game with that style coming to PC is great.

[brokenCrown]

[QUOTE=psyke;39716792][img]http://puu.sh/28qYh[/img]

Word must have got out about the exclusive hat.[/QUOTE]

I'd say a quarter of that are people who want the hat. You don't believe how big the fanbase for this game is for a Xbox Live indie fighting game.