Major Update Speculation Thread v12: Layoffs Edition - Games

[QUOTE=The Calzone;39558595]I might be in the unpopular pool on this, but I have to agree. MvM was never really that amazing to begin with once the hype wore off, and new botkiller weapons feel like such cop-outs. MvM tours should be added to accentuate actual updates, like with Christmas. It takes seemingly very little effort to create an MvM tour, considering the evident lack of playtesting on the Engineer tour's difficulty. They seem to be made on the assumption that no matter what they put out, it'll be doable by somebody. Not to mention the lack of playtesting is made even more evident by two very obvious exploits found mere hours after the update launched: the rock on Bigrock that made Sentry Busters explode if you put your sentry on it and stun-locking robot bosses with the Huntsman. Playtesters are paid to find things by exploiting every possible idea, and those two things were found by players on the first day by simply doing what comes naturally: placing a sentry on a high place and taunt-killing. Frankly, unless MvM gets an unlimited mode, anything that comes out after this point will just feel like filler.[/QUOTE] don't want to be rude but if you're bad in the normal game, you can still contribute indirectly and win but if you're bad in mvm, you get an incredible smackdown and try to blame it over the game

Like Engineers that build their dispenser in front of the sentry, blocking it from firing, and then whine that it's a hard mission. Benign Infiltration.

[QUOTE=Tiesno;39558753]normal play translates very well into MvM: if a weapon works in normal play, and more importantly, is viable in normal play, it should have no problems translating into the MvM environment[/QUOTE] A weapon that's designed for fighting individuals or small groups is not automatically going to translate well to fighting hordes of robots. We've seen this in action--if you use the Tomislav or Diamondback on a Mann Up server, your teammates aren't going to like you. I have yet to see a weapon specifically designed for use in MvM, and thus there is no data for your second statement to be based on, making it entirely without merit.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;39558769]don't want to be rude but if you're bad in the normal game, you can still contribute indirectly and win but if you're bad in mvm, you get an incredible smackdown and try to blame it over the game[/QUOTE] I don't see what this has to do with what I said. I said I find MvM to be boring and that they obviously don't playtest new MvM waves. Player skill has nothing to do with that.

[QUOTE=The Calzone;39558815]I don't see what this has to do with what I said. I said I find MvM to be boring and that they obviously don't playtest new MvM waves. Player skill has nothing to do with that.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=The Calzone;39558595]They seem to be made on the assumption that no matter what they put out, it'll be doable by somebody.[/QUOTE] I read that part as "it's too hard" and I don't understand why you're upset at the bugs being fixed. There have been a ton of problems in the real game too.

[QUOTE=Hng;39558352]I really hope there's not more MvM "updates". They're just getting stale and boring at this point.[/QUOTE] I agree, but I'm not a huge MvM fan. I enjoy playing it occasionally, but PvP is far more fun for me. Besides we need more content for PvP then MvM right now. The last time we got a PvP map not counting Ghost Fort since it's a reskin is Kong King back in August. It's time for some more regular maps. I don't care if they're Valve made, community made official or a mix of both. I feel we're over due for more regular maps.

Well, I have to admit that I did send Valve an email with my hopes/wants for TF2 in 2013. Dunno if they'll respond or not, but yeah, if you guys want a look, I can post it here.

I actually quite like MvM, but I still don't think that rehashing the same old thing over and over again is that interesting of an update. [QUOTE=1Eevee1;39558882]Well, I have to admit that I did send Valve an email with my hopes/wants for TF2 in 2013. Dunno if they'll respond or not.[/QUOTE] They won't.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;39558852]I read that part as "it's too hard" and I don't understand why you're upset at the bugs being fixed. There have been a ton of problems in the real game too.[/QUOTE] I'm not upset with bugs being fixed? Did you read what I wrote? I said that two very obvious exploits were present from launch. One was a sentry placement that caused sentry busters to explode instantly. This placement was not hard to get to nor was it illogical. It was in a very logical place to put it and probably the spot 99% of engineers first placed their sentry without thinking. The second bug was being able to stun-lock bosses with the Huntsman, which isn't a hard thing to come up with. I used those two exploits as evidence proving a lack of play-testing, as any competent playtester would have found them as fast as the players did. Yes, these bugs were fixed eventually, but they're two things that should have been caught first by playtesters since they are paid to do exactly that sort of stuff.

[QUOTE=Hng;39558888] They won't.[/QUOTE] Yeah after the blog post about supporting community map makers I sent them an email telling them how they should really also support community map makers by adding more maps and suggesting maps to add and they never responded to me. I also asked a question about the Mecha Update artwork (asking them if they would sell it as a poster on the Valve store since I'm a Godzilla fan and I would love to buy it) hoping they would at least respond to that but they didn't.

[QUOTE=The Calzone;39558903]I'm not upset with bugs being fixed? Did you read what I wrote? I said that two very obvious exploits were present from launch. One was a sentry placement that caused sentry busters to explode instantly. This placement was not hard to get to nor was it illogical. It was in a very logical place to put it and probably the spot 99% of engineers first placed their sentry without thinking. The second bug was being able to stun-lock bosses with the Huntsman, which isn't a hard thing to come up with. I used those two exploits as evidence proving a lack of play-testing, as any competent playtester would have found them as fast as the players did. Yes, these bugs were fixed eventually, but they're two things that should have been caught first by playtesters since they are paid to do exactly that sort of stuff.[/QUOTE] It's entirely possible that the playtesters missed it--things like that happen. It's almost like they're people too, and make mistakes just like us!

[QUOTE=mjcabooseblu;39558964]It's entirely possible that the playtesters missed it--things like that happen. It's almost like they're people too, and make mistakes just like us![/QUOTE] Playtesters get paid to walk up against every wall and try to find ways to break the game. Something as obvious as placing a sentry on an obvious place to put it breaking mini-sentries would have been found. It just makes sense to place it in that spot. Most players like to place their senties in high places and in corners because they believe they can see more from higher up and that corners are easier to defend. The rock on Bigrock is both a corner and a high place and can be easily accessed, so it's a spot a lot of players would instinctively go for. Either the playtesters were insanely thick to miss trying to place a sentry there or they did not exist in the first place.

The worst part is that you can still get a sentry in the right spot that makes it busterproof. It's kinda hard to do, but I've seen it.

We all know the real reason why Valve places emphasis on MvM. Not only is it a facile task to generate an MvM wave, but it requires far less playtesting and balance. Valve is lazy.

[QUOTE=HerSilverHammer;39553825]Picture 3 actually has a Gaming Heads logo on it. Sorry![/QUOTE] Dammit Then it will worth 200€ and they will only make 50

[t]http://i.imgur.com/v39BLr2.jpg[/t] My backpack is ready.

[QUOTE=Hng;39559303][t]http://i.imgur.com/v39BLr2.jpg[/t] My backpack is ready.[/QUOTE] No it's not. I don't see strange jags...

It's there, that's just the crafting stuff. [img]http://puu.sh/21kyN[/img]

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;39559166]We all know the real reason why Valve places emphasis on MvM. Not only is it a facile task to generate an MvM wave, but it requires far less playtesting and balance. Valve is lazy.[/QUOTE] Yes. A company that continually provides content for a game that's been out over five years, ON TOP OF their newer titles, is "lazy." [B]That is a logically sound thing to say.[/B]

[QUOTE=mjcabooseblu;39559378]Yes. A company that continually provides content for a game that's been out over five years, ON TOP OF their newer titles, is "lazy." [B]That is a logically sound thing to say.[/B][/QUOTE] It is very logically sound to say. Yes, they put out new content often. Most of the time, though, the new content is not up to snuff and lazy shortcuts are taken and oversights are made. Were this any other big-name company doing the same things, they'd get constant shit for it. If an item in Call of Duty or Battlefield had a weapon that went through the hand of the player in a majorly noticable way, it would probably be openly mocked on Kotaku or IGN. In TF2, though, because it's valve, we get shit like this: [img]http://puu.sh/21kL4[/img] [img]http://puu.sh/21kLn[/img] But no complaining about it! It was FREE. See this? [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/e/e4/Red-Tape_Recorder_1st_person_red.png[/t] [t]http://puu.sh/21kNa[/t] Is it unreasonable for these visual issues to be fixed? It was free! Shut up you entitled baby! Basically what I'm getting at is that Valve is not immune to criticism just because they put out content often. Sure, they aren't obligated to give us anything, but that does not give them permission to give us half-finished crap and then never finish it, especially considering the amount of money the make from this game.

I wish Valve would just accept community fixes for little things like those items clipping (and LODs for items that don't have them). Let people know they aren't going to get paid besides maybe a community version of the weapon they fix. If Valve absolutely has to pay them maybe give them like $100 to their Steam wallet.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;39559507]I wish Valve would just accept community fixes for little things like those items clipping (and LODs for items that don't have them). Let people know they aren't going to get paid besides maybe a community version of the weapon they fix. If Valve absolutely has to pay them maybe give them like $100 to their Steam wallet.[/QUOTE] I seriously don't see the issue with them just adding a stipulation that their fixes will be 100% charitable and that they won't pay them, maybe give them a Community version of the item they fix. There are so many easy ways for them to do it, there's no excuse for them to do it. Also, I quite like mjcabooseblu's exquisite rebuttal of a dumb rating and absolutely zero rebuttal whatsoever. I hate the rating system on this website, it discourages discussion and gives people an easy way out of actually presenting their opinions in a way that can be responded to.

An eloquent reply would be wasted. You obviously care about this much more than me, so you're free to have whatever opinion you feel entitled to. Personally, instead of complaining about clipping errors, I'll try to enjoy the game. I think at the end of the day, one of us will have had a better time.

[QUOTE=mjcabooseblu;39559558]An eloquent reply would be wasted. You obviously care about this much more than me, so you're free to have whatever opinion you feel entitled to. Personally, instead of complaining about clipping errors, I'll try to enjoy the game. I think at the end of the day, one of us will have had a better time.[/QUOTE] That is an insanely petty response and I am equally petty for replying to it. "Shut up and enjoy it" and "It'd be a waste of time to reply" is not a valid counter-argument. Valve frequently takes shortcuts and is lazy with what they put out, they are rude to their contributors to the point that it took Neo's item fixed were actively ignored for two years and he had to contact a new employee on his first day on the job in order for them to be implemented, and they very blatantly do little to no playtesting when it comes to MVM updates. They are not immune to criticism and it is very hard to just "shut up and enjoy it" when they have so much going against them. I've seen the attention to detail that Valve affords to their other games, which is why the things they do with TF2 offends me so much. You may be able to turn your head away and ignore it, but I'm not the sort of person to do that. Valve is an awesome company which is exactly why I get so upset when I see the sort of things they do to their game and the way they treat they've been ignoring community input and contributors lately.

Well, let's have a look at some of the more... interesting changes made. Pomson - Instead of removing the damned drains, they removed penetration. At this rate, you might as well split the damn thing into two shotguns, one that drains, and one that penetrates. Red Tape Recorder - Um... maybe try testing it internally, before releasing the update? Cow Mangler - Reflect makes it a crit. Rescue Ranger - Reflect darts can headshot. Some patches have some very odd little bugs. Take February 2012, where they prevented Mac users from being able to play TF2 thanks to some little problem introduced. Only took them 3 weeks to fix it. I know that some bugs are not easy to replicate. But a bug that makes TF2 crash 100% of the time, that has been introduced with a patch... should be fairly easy to replicate. I'm not expecting miracles, I just want them to care.

I want them to fix up that mat_viewportscale thing. Such a wondrous gift. Was that even supposed to be TF2 implemented?

[QUOTE=TheDrunkenOne;39556895]All I want from NECA is a 1:1 scale Gunslinger. [sp]Then cut off my hand and wear it pretending I'm Radigan Conagher[/sp][/QUOTE] Unfortunately you won't be able to move it's "amazing points of articulation" at all

I hate how Valve have gone from, "Genuine promos will be tradable once the game is out", to, THEYLL BE TRADABLE EITHER TOMORROW OR 3 MONTHS FROM NOW OK BYE.

[QUOTE=Cape;39559632]I want them to fix up that mat_viewportscale thing. Such a wondrous gift. Was that even supposed to be TF2 implemented?[/QUOTE] I'm not doubting you but what is wrong with it exactly? Is it the weird black bars in the deathcam?

[QUOTE=Yukinari;39559853]I hate how Valve have gone from, "Genuine promos will be tradable once the game is out", to, THEYLL BE TRADABLE EITHER TOMORROW OR 3 MONTHS FROM NOW OK BYE.[/QUOTE] If you're refering to Scribblenauts, it's because the game is not yet released in Europe. You can still pre-purchase it there and get the hat.