[QUOTE=ned_ballad;40142828]they might not know they're broken[/QUOTE]
You best be jokin'
[QUOTE=Zeos;40143597]You best be jokin'[/QUOTE]
it's this attitude that makes bugs last years. Always assume they don't know the bug exists.
[editline]3rd April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pie_Tony;40143561]I still thought they did until neo corrected me last week.[/QUOTE]
what's weird is they still bother noting in the schema if a hat/misc should drop on death, implying to me they still think it works, or are at least aware that it's something they want to fix eventually.
...Surely they've at least played the game to know that the LnL is broken. It's been two years and you can see it after firing [I]two[/I] shots out of it.
[QUOTE=Limie Pie;40143573]It looks like another Adult Swim promo for me.
Also: joined some weird server where revenge crits were kept forever. Even after death and building another sentry... That was horrible.[/QUOTE]
that was the idea. i doubt they would accept it, but i still want to finish it.
[QUOTE=Zeos;40143648]...Surely they've at least played the game to know that the LnL is broken. It's been two years and you can see it after firing [I]two[/I] shots out of it.[/QUOTE]
Most people haven't noticed it. Almost every time someone mentions that the LnL is broken, someone says "how?".
[QUOTE=Limie Pie;40143573]
Also: joined some weird server where revenge crits were kept forever. Even after death and building another sentry... That was horrible.[/QUOTE]
That would be a good MvM upgrade.
[QUOTE=Fine Hats;40143945]That would be a good MvM upgrade.[/QUOTE]
All-class character upgrade: "Death does not effect meter progress, counters, stickies placed, etc"
You wouldn't lose heads as Demo or Sniper, Uber progress as Medic, Accumulated crits as Engie, Pyro or Spy, babyface boost as Scout, stickies placed as Demo, or rage obtained as Soldier.
Can one of the wiki people like Armisael help me find out the cause of weird guillotine crits?
sometimes it full crits for seemingly no reason with no stun. It seems to be related to assists and medic healing beams.
MvM Giants get critted all the time by it.
caught on tape [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v412W1CdGrA&t=1m13s"]here[/URL]
needs research. Bugs the hell out of me.
Am I weird for thinking that the cleaver should only crit taunting targets?
Would make it a lot more satisfying to use, to say the least.
the cleaver really doesn't even need that sandman gimmick to be useful and fun. They could probably drop it at no real change to the weapon
Which is why I suggested crit on taunting opponent. Mini-crit at long range would remain though.
It rarely happens, so when it does it's both effective [i]and [/i] extremely satisfying, without tying it to a combo that you're pretty much forced to use to make the most of it.
the long-range thing is a gimmick aswell. You need to hit somebody at the longest range the knife can reach before touching the ground, which will never happen outside of random spam or luck.
why crit against taunts? the guy is not moving, you can just use your primary or melee on him.
That would be a good strange part, taunting enemies killed. Inversely, a taunt kills strange part would be great, too.
tbh the guillotine seems to me magnetized to cloaked spies, because i can't tell you how many times i've stunned someone tossed the guillotine only to have it hit a cloaked spy or another person.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;40146374]the long-range thing is a gimmick aswell. You need to hit somebody at the longest range the knife can reach before touching the ground, which will never happen outside of random spam or luck.
why crit against taunts? the guy is not moving, you can just use your primary or melee on him.[/QUOTE]
like 99% of kills from the Cleaver are good ol' fashioned regular hits anyway, it seems kind of pointless to even carry these two stats that nobody really uses or cares about and the weapon obviously doesn't need.
The Sandman shouldn't exist period. Natascha was nerfed for essentially stun-locking opponents, so why should the Sandman continue to allow Scout free kills?
What bothers me is that people have begun to treat the Sandman/Cleaver as a single weapon.
On a server I helped moderate, I decided to perform a bit of an experiment to confirm this. I temporarily banned the Sandman, and suddenly nobody used the cleaver anymore. "No combo? Fuck that."
I really just don't think it should be like that. It's the same reason Degreaser/Axetinguisher bugs me - A weapon's use should be based on its own merits, not an end-all combo it's a part of.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;40146471]The Sandman shouldn't exist period. Natascha was nerfed for essentially stun-locking opponents, so why should the Sandman continue to do allow Scout free kills?[/QUOTE]
because the natascha is just point and shoot, the sandman requires projectile timing and arc knowledge
I don't think I've ever used the Sandman with the Cleaver; The cleaver hasn't really left my loadout since it came out. I don't like the sandman (and I have a strange festive bat), but the cleaver is still a great secondary for finishing off people and causing folks to retreat.
You won't believe the people that completely stop moving forward and run backwards once they get hit with a cleaver.
Personally I use it with the Babyface and the Fan O' War.
It's great for getting boost from really long range, and hitting a foe with the fan and then the cleaver hurts a [i]lot, [/i] especially if you continue pelting them with the blaster from afar.
If pulled off correctly it can rip through a Heavy in seconds while maintaining mobility and distance advantage.
[QUOTE=OzzyCockroach;40146573]because the natascha is just point and shoot, the sandman requires projectile timing and arc knowledge[/QUOTE]
If it achieves the same infuriating result, then it doesn't matter how it's approached. As a matter of fact, I always found 2010 Natascha to be far more tolerable than the Sandman; at least the Natascha allowed you to shoot back.
And in all honesty, it isn't even that difficult to hit someone with.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;40145719]Can one of the wiki people like Armisael help me find out the cause of weird guillotine crits?
sometimes it full crits for seemingly no reason with no stun. It seems to be related to assists and medic healing beams.
MvM Giants get critted all the time by it.
caught on tape [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v412W1CdGrA&t=1m13s"]here[/URL]
needs research. Bugs the hell out of me.[/QUOTE]
From what I've observed, the "stun" doesn't only account for sandman stuns.
It also accounts for airblast, Force-A-Nature, and Natascha. It's most noticeable when Guillotine bleeding suddenly becomes a crit when the victim is being hit by one of those, of course it's rarer to get the contact crit unless you have a teammate working with you.
As for the giant bots, I'm assuming that it's because the slower movespeed is coded in the same way the stun slowdown is.
I find Natascha and the Sandman to be failures of the weapon balance process. Valve's philosophies that the core functionality of a weapon needs to be maintained through balance have basically barred either of these weapons for having any sort of chance of being fun to use. Slow is pretty bad. It was stated it was bad when it came out. Stun is even worse. But these things are core functionality, so they have to be balanced around them, rather than just gutting them and making brand new weapons.
Like the Sandman could maybe evolve into blurring and confusing the view of the player, rather than outright stunning. Afterburn already does this somewhat, make the effect scale with ball distance and the mechanic could seemingly work.
For natascha, possibly knockback? Maybe pushes people back when they're airborne? Turn it into an anti-air mobility item? I don't know, this one is harder to figure out ways to still have the "feeling" of slow without really being slow.
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;40146580]I don't think I've ever used the Sandman with the Cleaver; The cleaver hasn't really left my loadout since it came out. I don't like the sandman (and I have a strange festive bat), but the cleaver is still a great secondary for finishing off people and causing folks to retreat.
You won't believe the people that completely stop moving forward and run backwards once they get hit with a cleaver.[/QUOTE]
Same goes with boston basher.
I'd definitely support Natascha having a large amount of knockback instead of slowdown. It'd be perfect for Heavy's core purpose: Defense and area denial.
It'd push foes backwards more than they can walk forward (unless they're a Scout), so it'd be perfect for point clearing and securing areas. It'd scale with distance too, of course...
[QUOTE=Armisael;40146877]they could also do a control inversion (ie, forward key goes back, left key goes right, your mouse is up-down and left-right inverted). You'd have to be careful.[/QUOTE]
This sounds cool, but you just know that people would come up with keybinds that would reverse their controls to right themselves when stunned. It'd have to be somewhat randomized each time (W goes left, Space crouches, etc.) to combat that.
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;40146756]For natascha, possibly knockback? Maybe pushes people back when they're airborne? Turn it into an anti-air mobility item? I don't know, this one is harder to figure out ways to still have the "feeling" of slow without really being slow.[/QUOTE]
The stock minigun already has some pretty hefty knockback on in-air targets, since you don't have the ground sapping it all away immediately. It's a surprisingly effective way to deal with bombing soldiers, actually.
Stick an "apply z velocity" "10" and an "apply look velocity" "150" would also be an interesting test.
And yeah, the sandman's also a dumb weapon. Screen blur sounds like it might be interesting - they could also do a control inversion (ie, forward key goes back, left key goes right, your mouse is up-down and left-right inverted). You'd have to be careful.
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;40146756]Like the Sandman could maybe evolve into blurring and confusing the view of the player, rather than outright stunning. Afterburn already does this somewhat, make the effect scale with ball distance and the mechanic could seemingly work.[/QUOTE]
blurring the players view would be worse and would stray further away from valves core views around game design. Plus, it would just be easy to mod out the effects of blurred vision.
I really don't understand the problem with the Sandman.
At short range, The scout can do much more damage in 2 meatshots in the same time it takes to pull out the sandman, aim, stun opponent, switch back to scattergun.
At long range, You're either an idiot or unlucky to be hit by a small projectile that flies in a predictable arc.
[QUOTE=Barobax;40146936]I really don't understand the problem with the Sandman.
At short range, The scout can do much more damage in 2 meatshots in the same time it takes to pull out the sandman, aim, stun opponent, switch back to scattergun.
At long range, You're either an idiot or unlucky to be hit by a small projectile that flies in a predictable arc.[/QUOTE]
But at mid range, you get stunned, and you're done. Even with the small amount of stun time, it's more than enough to kill you if you're not a Soldier or Heavy before you're back in firstperson for long.
It's only made worse by the Guillotine, which means the stun might as well be death for anybody.
The problem is that being crippled and turned into an almost guaranteed kill because a scout managed to hit you with a high speed, low visibility projectile at mid range is terrible.
Basically the same reasons natascha was terrible.
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