TF2 Emporium 51: Not late this time edition - YOU ALL HAVE A CHAT THREAD FOR CHATTING/OFFTOPIC, USE

[dongalator]

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39468655]did you maybe mix them up, rig to the wrong ones?[/QUOTE]

hmmm, i assume i messed up the parenting process. both the 3 candies and the 3 bones are one object, so i only parented it once. how do i have each model separately parented to each bone, while keeping one smd?

[Venezuelan]

[QUOTE=skovacs1;39467881]I'm new to TF2 workshop submission, but experienced in other contexts. After much searching, piecemeal answers lead me to create a concise yet complete tutorial and I have some points I'd appreciate some help finding clarification of. Obviously any help and corrections are welcome. The English in my questions may seem somewhat chopped or awkward, but I assure you that my English is fine and that this was only done for the sake of brevity.

[B][U]Basics:[/U][/B]
The basics are pretty clear, but I'll list them generally in case I missed something.

[U]Tools (some optional)(install is clear enough for each):[/U]Source SDK
-TF2
-3D modeler
-image editor
-text editor
-SMD IO stuff
-vtfedit
-guistudiomdl
-mdldecompiler
-gcfscape

[U]Process:[/U]import appropriate smd model and rig for reference.
1.model + smoothing
2.create jigglebones + parent bones + rig
3.unwrap + bake AO etc + texture
4.export smd
5.create vmt + vtf - mapping (bump/phong/normal/alpha) and shader stuff = vtf params
6.create qc - r/b = skinfamily
7.compile mdl
8.test + iterate + LODs(model + qc)
9.itemtest?
10.kill icons? + backpack icons?
11.submit
12.???
14.profit

[U][B]Questions:[/B][/U]

Answered
[HR][/HR]-Cloaking and animated textures are present in existing vtfs. Where can I find info on this/is there any?
-Aside from jigglebone, where can I find details on physics (may involve something to do with automass and files created by itemtest)? Is there a point to setting these up or will they just be ignored anyways?
-I've seen head replacement hats. How are they done differently? Where can I find information on this?
-Each class bears multi-class items differently so must we create and include versions for each intended class in our submission?
-Styles are done by Valve? There's no way to do them client-side? So just create different models/textures separately, test and include in same submission with description/readme?

Unanswered
[HR][/HR]-Painting is really unclear to me. How do I indicate paintability? Where can I find info/tutorial?
-Misc items just cover existing base model? There's no way to replace geometry? Clothing that exposes skin not previously exposed does so above the existing base mesh? Otherwise, how?
-If the above is true, Misc rig should emulate existing rigging for tf2 characters to avoid clipping during anims? Do I only need to include the bones that I'm rigging or the whole skeleton?
-Where can I find info on custom engineer buildings?
-I've read that Valve ditches custom anims? Is there a point to any anims? idle? What about weapons that don't fit the norm (ie. different hand placement/movement/interactions needed)? Do I just write in description/readme?
-Is there a point in custom sounds or particle systems in submissions or are they ditched as well? If they may be used, where can I find information on creating them?
-Itemtest's export structure is encouraged in workshop. What about stuff not exported by itemtest? Since some stuff is going to be ignored by Valve, is there a clear guideline on what to include where, encompassing all things of relevance mentioned thus far? Is there a point to creating backpack and kill icons for example and where would I include them?
-Hours of searching ~180+ pages of workshop + store pages before starting just to make sure my ideas are not yet implemented is a pain. Is there a better way to check this or a policy about creating something that exists?[/QUOTE]

if your weapon doesn't fit normal animations, don't make it

custom sounds and particles are fine, just make sure your sounds don't use any sounds that require credit or disallow commercial use

mimic itemtest structure even if you don't use it. you'll be able to figure out where additional stuff goes as you become familiar with TF2's folder structure

search for basic keywords and if nothing comes up don't worry about it.

[editline]4th February 2013[/editline]

[QUOTE=dongalator;39468679]hmmm, i assume i messed up the parenting process. both the 3 candies and the 3 bones are one object, so i only parented it once. how do i have each model separately parented to each bone, while keeping one smd?[/QUOTE]

I don't know blender but yeah they're supposed to be rigged individually

[editline]4th February 2013[/editline]

[QUOTE=SgtR007;39468021]I don't feel like answering all of your questions, but to help you with a few:
- Paint is done in the .vmt with the following code. Paint values are in RGB format and can be found [url=http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Template:Painted_variants/Tutorial]here[/url]. There are more options for paint (ie tinting a texture versus replacing a texture's color) that can be found by looking around [url=https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Main_Page]here[/url].

 	"$blendtintbybasealpha" "1" 
 	"$blendtintcoloroverbase" "0"  

	"$colortint_base" "{130 93 69}"
	"$colortint_tmp" "[0 0 0]" 

- Physics variables for hat/misc/weapon models don't really make any appreciable difference. If you want a part of a model to look more realistic, though, jigglebones is what you need to use.
- Some models replace bodygroups (ie Apparition's Aspect, Flip Flops, etc.) If there isn't already an existing cosmetic or weapon that replaces a part of the player model, assume your model can't replace that body part either.
- All-class submissions require a different model for each class (to account for variable positioning), unless it's a simple misc like a pin or badge or something.
- Styles are done by Valve. You simply submit the alt texture/model and they do the rest.[/QUOTE]

it's not true that physics values don't make a difference, you just usually shouldn't mess with them. when I made an umbrella weapon I set the physics to fall slowly, was a neat effect imo

[dongalator]

[url]http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?107043-Rigging-One-mesh-object-or-multiple[/url]

think i figured it out. gonna test it out

[editline]4th February 2013[/editline]

also found out that you need to group objects to have them exported as one file

[skovacs1]

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39468636]they will never make another bodygroup unless you're a promo maker, bodygroup is now a dirty word at valve[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarity. Disappointing, but completely understandable. As I said, I'll devise a creative workaround.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39468636]and yes the alpha channel of the vtf determines which part is painted. also he forgot to give you the paint proxies[/QUOTE]

Ah. Yes. That's makes it clearer. So, short answer is to make an appropriate mask in the vtf, (obviously leaving the texture grayscale in the RGB channels where the mask is) and then set the appropriate proxy in the vmt.

[Venezuelan]

doesn't need to be grayscale, needs to be roughly white

[skovacs1]

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39468681]if your weapon doesn't fit normal animations, don't make it[/QUOTE]
Hrm....I appreciate the kind recommendation, but I must make these. I will have to throw my creations to the mercy of the Valve authorities.

The modifications are rather minor. For at least some of the weapons in this project, they could depend on some slight offsets to the hand positioning/angle during the anims, but would not require much else as far as changing the anims. 1 to 3 of them [I]may[/I] require a bit more in terms of customization of the anims, depending on how they look together, but I will do my best to make my square peg fit into a slightly rounder hole.

I truly do appreciate the advice. Knowing that this is strongly discouraged motivates me to find ways to make them fit moreso than if I knew I had a better chance of the potentially necessary modifications being made to the anims. They're too cool a concept not to try and I might get some leeway for these, we'll see.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39468681]custom sounds and particles are fine, just make sure your sounds don't use any sounds that require credit or disallow commercial use[/QUOTE]

Yes. Obviously copyright infringement is out. That's right there in Valve's guidelines.

I would probably create my own foley if necessary should it come to it. For this project, I don't really need the custom sounds, but I'll do some video tests and open that up to advisement once I have the results.

Particles would be a bit more interesting on some of the items, but I tried pretty hard to fit existing weapons conceptually so I don't think that will be an issue. I'll open myself up to recommendations on this when I post the results.

This question came up more from the desire to create a more comprehensive tutorial to answer others' questions in the future. Some comments I read said that this stuff is largely ignored by Valve so I didn't look too hard into the details of implementation for addition into the tutorial. Why would I waste time researching something that wouldn't be included by Valve in the end anyways? But your answer leads me to believe that it might be worth investing that time.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39468681]mimic itemtest structure even if you don't use it. you'll be able to figure out where additional stuff goes as you become familiar with TF2's folder structure[/QUOTE]

Duly noted. It seems like something people get a feel for, but I was sort of looking for a community concensus on a structure for all future inclusions so that an encompasing hard and fast rule could be created and followed for what to include and where, as itemtest doesn't create everything. This would make it easier for creators as well as for Valve as a consistent structure is a lot easier to parse and include. I'm probably asking for a lot on this one, but I figured if my tutorial was to truly be complete, such an outline would be desirable.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39468681]search for basic keywords and if nothing comes up don't worry about it.[/QUOTE]

As I've done.

In some cases, I was apparently searching for the wrong basic keywords. I didn't know to search for proxies to feed into the shader for example and searches for paintable didn't yield anything usable.

I searched for physics information, but found comments stating they would be ignored by Valve while others didn't say and others still said to include them. It's less about not finding anything than not finding anything authoritative.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39468681]it's not true that physics values don't make a difference, you just usually shouldn't mess with them. when I made an umbrella weapon I set the physics to fall slowly, was a neat effect imo[/QUOTE]

For this project, the few hats I'm making are pretty well attached to the characters and the weapons should be more or less treated as normal since most are melee weapons anyways. It's the ranged weapons that in some cases weigh less than their standard gun counterparts, but only by a small amount so I'm less concerned.

This topic is also more for tutorial purposes and again, if it would be ignored by Valve, I had no reason to include this. If you say they could well be used, then I will research more on this topic and include it in the tutorial. Thank you.

[Venezuelan]

they basic keywords thing was in response to your last question

[skovacs1]

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39468837]doesn't need to be grayscale, needs to be roughly white[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't the paint come out a solid colour multiplied by white? Shouldn't there at least be the appropriate AO (which would be on a scale of gray) +/- some minor painting for adding depth and variety where appropriate (without adding noisy details, of course)(There's a tutorial on matching Valve style tf2 textures that I read through on the topic) which to avoid colour conflicts in multiplication would also benefit from no saturation?

[dongalator]

[t]http://puu.sh/1XgTa[/t]

yay, I did it! thanks guys. although, the wrapper ends clip with his body a bit. might have to make them a bit smaller.

[Venezuelan]

[QUOTE=skovacs1;39469045]Wouldn't the paint come out a solid colour multiplied by white? Shouldn't there at least be the appropriate AO (which would be on a scale of gray) +/- some minor painting for adding depth and variety where appropriate (without adding noisy details, of course)(There's a tutorial on matching Valve style tf2 textures that I read through on the topic) which to avoid colour conflicts in multiplication would also benefit from no saturation?[/QUOTE]

I didn't think saturation affects multiplication too much but I don't know much about this sort of thing. but yeah I just wanted to make sure you didn't think you should have it just any color so long as it's grayscale

[skovacs1]

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39469010]they basic keywords thing was in response to your last question[/QUOTE]

Ah. Sorry. I missed that from your reply. My mind must have been thinking of something else and freudian slipped in a misunderstanding.

In that case, I did try that. It works well enough to eliminate namespace overlap, but sadly, with creative naming and/or descriptions or worse, a lack of both or either, search results tend to be inconclusive when searching for conceptual parity.

[Venezuelan]

I always include a bunch of tags in my submissions. if others don't do the same, it's their fault really

[skovacs1]

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39469093]I didn't think saturation affects multiplication too much but I don't know much about this sort of thing. but yeah I just wanted to make sure you didn't think you should have it just any color so long as it's grayscale[/QUOTE]

That's really what saturation is. Saturation can be considered for the purposes of this discussion as variance from grayscale. Something with 0 saturation has R=G=B and is therefore grayscale and anything else is not. Saying it can be just any color as long as it is grayscale is sort of confused as grayscale necessitates the absence of color. A better way of putting it would be to say that it could be any grayscale value.

It can affect multiplication and it can really be any value for the purposes of painting, although to remain consistent with tf2 aesthetic, there are bounds. Also, depending upon which additional color parameters you are applying in the vmt as that determines how things are painted, it could be completely irrelevant what values you have there in the RGB channel.

You have essentially 3 values to be concerned with: base RGB, base alpha, paint RGB. The painting funtion is most likely something like (pardon my rough pseudo):

(1-n)*base + n*paint, if $blendTintByBaseAlpha, n = alpha, else n = $blendTintColorOverBase (which defaults to 0)

This will mask based on n and will replace the base entirely with the paint where the n is 1 and will ignore the paint where the n is 0 and will blend the two elsewhere. If using alpha, this would be based on the mask. In this function, both the base and paint could be relevant, depending on your mask so we're both right if you think of it that way depending on our mask.

[Venezuelan]

I know what saturation and grayscale are, I never said it has to be grayscale, and that it's okay to have saturation as long as it's grayscale

but yeah, I meant color in the broad broad sense, it's not semantically correct but you get my point

I know that having saturation affects multiplication, I just don't think it causes a notable issue and needs to be entirely removed

most of the time what people will do is texture the item normally, sample the lightest color, use its RGB as the default paint color, and apply it in a new layer with the paint mask applied to it and setting it to divide

[skovacs1]

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39469412]I know what saturation and grayscale are, I never said it has to be grayscale, and that it's okay to have saturation as long as it's grayscale

but yeah, I meant color in the broad broad sense, it's not semantically correct but you get my point[/QUOTE]

I didn't mean to offend if I did. I was merely trying to ensure clarity in our communications. I think I got your point, but I thought it best to be thorough as you did say "[you] don't know much about this sort of thing" and "I just wanted to make sure you didn't think you should have it just any color so long as it's grayscale" was kind of a confusing sentence.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39469412]I know that having saturation affects multiplication, I just don't think it causes a notable issue and needs to be entirely removed[/QUOTE]

True enough. As long as it is not overly saturated, the paint colors should not be affected enough to be out of place and the mask also plays a role in that too. When I said, "leaving it grayscale," meaning that I wouldn't add color, I was thinking about something else and was wrong.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;39469412]most of the time what people will do is texture the item normally, sample the lightest color, use its RGB as the default paint color, and apply it in a new layer with the paint mask applied to it and setting it to divide[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I'll give that a try.

The function as I listed it is a masked replacement which, based on the parameter descriptions of $blendTintByBaseAlpha and $blendTintColorOverBase, fits. For that function, base can really just be treated like any texture and you can let the alpha do the work.

When I said, grayscale, I was thinking of a lighting function for some reason. Lighting functions are often multiplicative and would give us something like base*lightColor for example (for lighting, there's a lot more to the equation with regard to albedo, bump, normal, spec, etc, but that's not the point). Saying that it should be mostly white really threw me as that further fits with the function being multiplicative and then I got really confused. It could well be multiplicative: base*(1-n + n*paint) which would warrant a lighter color where paint is to be applied, but then why would the description of blendTintColorOverBase be described as replacement unless it was using one function for one case and the other for the other case. It's been a long day on my end. I'm sorry.
:suicide:

[Metaru]

[QUOTE=Bapaul;39459107][IMG]http://puu.sh/1WOnH[/IMG]
Ching chong cheng chang chang ching[/QUOTE]

i had a approach on the same concept.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/xOXcFm5.png[/IMG]

[void~]

[QUOTE=MultiTrip;39467311][URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=124934630"]cool arms

[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/1119411831355846852/C2DD3BCD15847F6A1A108FA88BE7376CBFA26E2C/[/img]

[t]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/1119411831355853725/37DF0A5C2BBFF237ECA7E9B53AC10F8166D28107/[/t]
[/URL]

click these armz[/QUOTE]

Oh honey, you used only used one arm in the texture, didn't you?

those look mirrored, the heavy's right arm is a backwards "HEAVY" something, right?

I'm sure you can spare the tiny amounts of data to skin both arms, then you can more variation.

[editline]4th February 2013[/editline]

also I got a twitter now and will occasionally post all sorts of shit like workshop submissions and portfolio junk and works in progress and stuff like that to it, so if you want to follow me, hit me up on that shit underneath my avatar here

[DMY]

[QUOTE=Void Skull;39469698]
those look mirrored, the heavy's right arm is a backwards "HEAVY" something, right?
[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure those screens show an old version of the texture, that's since been changed to just 3 stars which is mirror friendly. It said "HEAVY YVAEH", which looked the same on both sides, but also looked silly.
Now that I think about it, that might be why the arm colour looks a little mismatched, too. I think that got fixed when that change was made.

[Rexic]

I think a paintable band style for the demo fro would be cool. Was a skin that does that ever made?

[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR78EIllq2i-BpeNfpKtwJjM4bYnpSdkdzumnd0L4j2lnM923g5Og[/IMG]

[SUB][SUB]Pageking[/SUB][/SUB]

[Bapaul]

[IMG]http://puu.sh/1XkPR[/IMG]
Apparantly this is a movie reference

[kenshin6]

This is my best concept yet

[img]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/52618319/paintballmask_concept1.jpg[/img]

[Teh Kiyoshi]

[QUOTE=Frying Dutchman;39464471]OP updated once again with more mods and less human error.

[sp]If I did fuck up something in OP, notify me asap and I'll hit it with a wrench[/sp][/QUOTE]

[url=http://tf2.gamebanana.com/skins/123725][img]http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/tehkiyoshi/demo_promod_zps5d8e9a9e.png[/img][/url]

Just to let you know.
You didn't (or forgot maybe?) put this in OP

[Ax3l]

[QUOTE=Bapaul;39470313][IMG]http://puu.sh/1XkPR[/IMG]
Apparantly this is a movie reference[/QUOTE]

Goddamnit. I was going to do that. :(

[MrMarioman]

I'm back from my holiday, if anyone wants a demonstration video for their done first, now is your time to speak.

[alexdom]

[QUOTE=Ax3l;39470499]Goddamnit. I was going to do that. :([/QUOTE]

was doing it to >.<

[Constructor]

[QUOTE=Bapaul;39470313][IMG]http://puu.sh/1XkPR[/IMG]
Apparantly this is a movie reference[/QUOTE]
Django?

[Hecates]

[QUOTE=Bapaul;39470313][IMG]http://puu.sh/1XkPR[/IMG]
Apparantly this is a movie reference[/QUOTE]

needs cool beard.

[Constructor]

-snip lion-

[mat500]

[QUOTE=Ax3l;39470499]Goddamnit. I was going to do that. :([/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=alexdom;39470705]was doing it to >.<[/QUOTE]

me too with alexdom

[DatGmann]

[URL="http://puu.sh/1XoAv"] [IMG]http://puu.sh/1XoAX[/IMG][/URL][URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=124871585"][IMG]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3430278/Modding/Workshop Promo Extention.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL="http://puu.sh/1XoBB"] [IMG]http://puu.sh/1XoBW[/IMG][/URL][URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=124878516"][IMG]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3430278/Modding/Workshop Promo Extention.png[/IMG][/URL]
Tell me if there's any kinds of errors.