The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

[QUOTE=Drury;40767717][t]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/542961221295585804/975908A63D1C634C9BE24418C8774AD9CD433B7D/[/t] Just tested with bots. There's no attribute for critical hit penetration, sadly. 173dmg quickscopes, I could get used to this. I found that with smg equipped, I can just headshot a demo/pyro and then snipe them down with smg, even a single bullet instakills them at that point. I imagine things would get interesting with cleaner's carbine and actual crit-dependent stats.[/QUOTE] Was there no way to make the extra damage apply on critical hits or was it a headshot-specific thing? The primary difference there would be is if it would have synergy with the Cleaner's Carbine (headshot + cleanup, then swap to Machina for a crit bodyshot, then swap back to cleanup again, etc) or give a reason to panic-Kritz a Machina Sniper. Also since mini-crits are crits, it could boost the potency of Jarate + Machina.

[QUOTE=PSI Guy;40767534][B]Stock Flamer[/B] +Can now airblast your own flames to grant triple range and deal mini-crit damage +Otherwise the same[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l13LHEPyEyY[/media] [editline]24th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Psychopath12;40767846]Was there no way to make the extra damage apply on critical hits or was it a headshot-specific thing? The primary difference there would be is if it would have synergy with the Cleaner's Carbine (headshot + cleanup, then swap to Machina for a crit bodyshot, then swap back to cleanup again, etc) or give a reason to panic-Kritz a Machina Sniper. Also since mini-crits are crits, it could boost the potency of Jarate + Machina.[/QUOTE] Ye it was headshot specific. Strangely enough there is no such thing as "crits are even more critical," I guess they're hardcoded to be 300% so hard it's impossible to change with a simple attribute. Existing weapons just sorta go around that by giving the weapon an increase in base damage, but special decrease specifically in case of not meeting crit reward criteria (e.g. axtinguisher) [editline]24th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Drury;40704592]The Razorback +gets "fixed" in every post +blocks a single backstab attempt +makes funny sounds when someone gets close So you at least know there's a spy. It's probably not going to help you without SMG or Jarate, but at least it's something.[/QUOTE] I just had an idea, what if it automatically shorted out cloaking devices in a radius of 5 meters around you instead? This way they wouldn't be able to simply slip past you unnoticed, and you'd hear them decloak.

[t]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/540709683556727937/2680CD2AE19DD4FBE609B990A475039B0BC244E9/[/t] Also got around to doing this 70% sentry resistance is a bit too much, I could see it working with 40%. 70% is pretty much "sentry? what sentry?" mode. 40% doesn't always let you charge at lvl3's and nor does it let you just walk by the sentry, completely ignoring it. Therefore you have to come up with smart ways to approach it quickly, yet you don't instantly die/fly away if it targets you.

I still think the Homewrecker should be split into one (buffed) sentry-protecting item and one (buffed) sentry-wrecking weapon. Sentry damage resistance and knockback resistance sounds like good traits for the latter.

I feel the strange homewrecker should count buildings destroyed, not kills.

[QUOTE=Dat Lobo;40769804]I feel the strange homewrecker should count buildings destroyed, not kills.[/QUOTE] There's Strange Parts for that.

Mini-Sentry nerf: Strange Part: Mini-Sentries Destroyed added to game

[QUOTE=Drury;40749933]But the thing about minis is that they can't be simply taken down for good like normal ones, they get re-built in 3 seconds. That way you can build them wherever and lock areas that you normally wouldn't be able to. And shouldn't be able to.[/QUOTE] two rockets or a sticky. you have four of the first, and four of the second. you only need one if you got the direct hit. really, minis are OP when people ignores them long enough to get themselves killed by them. they're cheap because they also get destroyed really quick, wich also drains your metal really fast (and any engie using them for defense is as worthless as the scrap metal they drop) still getting problems? get a red tape recorder, rename it as "minisentry patch" and watch the engie become extremely defenseless since he will either have to remove the sapper and get himself killed trying to wrench that little baby or wait for it to get destroyed and get himself killed because he's a sore idiot who relied too much on the thing. if anything, removing things like the bullet knockback would make them EVEN more op because you'd be even more vulnerable since there wouldn't be nothing pushing you out of its firing range.(no, if you were way depper into its range you'd be dead anyway). engies wasting metal on minisentries rather than dispensers is just an issue with each player.

Got a few questions for everyone: Is the Short Circuit meant to be as situational as the Razorback? Should it be kept this way? It has potential to be something fun and useful, but would it hurt balance if it was buffed a little bit? You use metal to get rid of explosives that could have probably been easily avoided. The metal cost makes you tied to a dispenser, except repairing a building uses less metal. On top of that, the Wrangler is more versatile, dependable tool. Using it as a support tool with another Engineer is probably the best bet, but even then it's probably better to be doing other things. That's my take on it. What do you guys say? Should it be kept the same, or should it be given more edge?

i've used it in mvm and it does wonders agaisnt waves of projectile spammers, let alone giant crit soldiers. but it kills your metal so fast(even on mvm) that you're better off using that supply on your repairs. I remember i even sugested that it should work much like the manmelter does, albeit with a shorter reload time. otherwise, you could just resort to your gunslinger or your pistol(or you know, turtling).

[QUOTE=Inigo Montoya;40772214]Got a few questions for everyone: Is the Short Circuit meant to be as situational as the Razorback? Should it be kept this way? It has potential to be something fun and useful, but would it hurt balance if it was buffed a little bit? You use metal to get rid of explosives that could have probably been easily avoided. The metal cost makes you tied to a dispenser, except repairing a building uses less metal. On top of that, the Wrangler is more versatile, dependable tool. Using it as a support tool with another Engineer is probably the best bet, but even then it's probably better to be doing other things. That's my take on it. What do you guys say? Should it be kept the same, or should it be given more edge?[/QUOTE] Metal cost per shot should be lowered, or it should be retooled to allow an Engie to keep up an anti-projectile "bubble" at the cost of say, 10 or 20 metal per second. I actually have a loadout which is specifically for assisting my fellow Engineers (RR for long-range healing of buildings out of my reach, Short Circuit for defending a nest from ubered demomen, and Gunslinger for some supporting of the front line), and when the Short Circuit actually works it's a thing of beauty.

IIRC, the short circuit is a monster in payload if you are attacking because you can keep basically all spam off of the cart. Never actually used it, but still.

[QUOTE=DatWut?;40770428]There's Strange Parts for that.[/QUOTE] I mean as its main attribute, so it levels off that, not off kills, which it's practically useless for. People laugh when they see a pyro pull that out for attack.

[QUOTE=Metaru;40772144]two rockets or a sticky. you have four of the first, and four of the second. you only need one if you got the direct hit. really, minis are OP when people ignores them long enough to get themselves killed by them. they're cheap because they also get destroyed really quick, wich also drains your metal really fast (and any engie using them for defense is as worthless as the scrap metal they drop) still getting problems? get a red tape recorder, rename it as "minisentry patch" and watch the engie become extremely defenseless since he will either have to remove the sapper and get himself killed trying to wrench that little baby or wait for it to get destroyed and get himself killed because he's a sore idiot who relied too much on the thing. if anything, removing things like the bullet knockback would make them EVEN more op because you'd be even more vulnerable since there wouldn't be nothing pushing you out of its firing range.(no, if you were way depper into its range you'd be dead anyway). engies wasting metal on minisentries rather than dispensers is just an issue with each player.[/QUOTE] If you waste two rockets on a mini, you end up with two rockets, which is not enough to take down the engineer. I find myself in this situation too often. And minis take a soldier with full hp down in 4 seconds. Just enough to kill the engineer, then you can't do anything to stop the sentry from killing you (as you have like 1-2 seconds left to locate and destroy it before you die)(if I got an eurocent each time I posthumously destroyed a mini I'd be rich enough to bribe Gaben to nerf them personally). That assuming there's nobody around except you two and the engineer is AFK (not shooting at you). Most of the time you get hit by something else, then you die in a single second to the mini. Yep, you can't do much against minis as a class you like to play, you have to adjust your loadout to force the engineer to rageswitch, which is outright silly. When minis come to play, one of you always ends up playing a class they never intended to. So please don't use "direct hit or red tape" argument, it's getting old and it's not even a real one. Instead let's focus on finding ways to make minis manageable by other classes, because at this point they counter too many. About knockback, it's like it's calibrated to be outright frustrating. Not strong enough to push you away when you get caught by accident, but strong enough to completely blow you off your course while rocketjumping (and as a result you can't even fly past the death zone around the minisentry). I wonder how many more times will I have to argue about minis with people who don't play roamer classes. They never have a clue what it's like being countered by it and raise weird arguments that don't even make sense.

Disciplinary Action + Bigger range! (demo sword range?) I just hate to walk behind another soldier 1 feet away attacking him and hearing f%&#*@# voice of proper hit, and game is like "NOPE! No hit! Sound lies!"

It actually already has a slightly longer range than demo swords as a hidden attribute.

But it somehow doesnt work, maybe that range works only for damage, not buff. I had so many situations that I heared hit but no buff...

It has a 15% longer range than usual soldier meelees, it just doesn't tell The reason you hear a hit but nothing happens is because teammates aren't lagcompensated as well as enemies

The Disciplinary Action has a larger range for enemies then it does allies for some reason. Both are extended, though.

Does half-zatoichi have extended range on soilder?

No it has the range of a normal melee, both on demo and soldier.

An idea from the SPUF forums to make the Eviction Notice more interesting. +50% Firing Speed on left hand(alt fire) -60% Damage penalty on left hand (alt fire). +60% Damage on right hand. -50% firing speed on right hand. Not sure on numbers, but the idea of making Heavy's cosmetic left and right punches do something strikes me as a ton of fun.

[QUOTE=Fine Hats;40777037]An idea from the SPUF forums to make the Eviction Notice more interesting. +50% Firing Speed on left hand(alt fire) -60% Damage penalty on left hand (alt fire). +60% Damage on right hand. -50% firing speed on right hand. Not sure on numbers, but the idea of making Heavy's cosmetic left and right punches do something strikes me as a ton of fun.[/QUOTE] Problem is that third person animations don't separate your punch choices, it just cycles through left and right. So other people wouldn't be able to tell what fist you chose.

[QUOTE=Dr. Doughnut;40777071]Problem is that third person animations don't separate your punch choices, it just cycles through left and right. So other people wouldn't be able to tell what fist you chose.[/QUOTE] That doesn't seem that hard to change though, certainly not any harder than making the stats themselves [editline]25th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Drury;40775097]I wonder how many more times will I have to argue about minis with people who don't play roamer classes. They never have a clue what it's like being countered by it and raise weird arguments that don't even make sense.[/QUOTE] The exact basis of your argument is the reason why it's irrelevant, it's for a single play style, roamer soldier, it's as stupid as me someone else saying, "nerf sentries, it's too hard to take them down when i run Kritz"

[QUOTE=Drury;40775097]I wonder how many more times will I have to argue about minis with people [I]who don't play roamer classes.[/I] They never have a clue what it's like being countered by it and raise weird arguments that don't even make sense.[/QUOTE] oh please, cry me a river. you went ahead on your own instead of get support from your team. you traded firepower and defense for mobility. if a mini killed you, it was because it was meant to kill you because you were alone. minis sure sound op as hell when the context you put them is basically 1v1. of course the engie will will you if he's paying attention, thats the whole fucking point of combat sentries after all: to stay close to them and being able to be around at any time, something the regular sentry isnt even close to be able. its one of the greatest drawbacks people had when playing engineer outside of defense: either you have the time to get it to lvl 2 or you were fucked. you dont want to get killed when rocket jumping over a sentry? why the fuck would you rocket jump over a sentry to begin with.

[QUOTE=Metaru;40786107]oh please, cry me a river. you went ahead on your own instead of get support from your team. you traded firepower and defense for mobility. if a mini killed you, it was because it was meant to kill you because you were alone. minis sure sound op as hell when the context you put them is basically 1v1. of course the engie will will you if he's paying attention, thats the whole fucking point of combat sentries after all: to stay close to them and being able to be around at any time, something the regular sentry isnt even close to be able. its one of the greatest drawbacks people had when playing engineer outside of defense: either you have the time to get it to lvl 2 or you were fucked. you dont want to get killed when rocket jumping over a sentry? why the fuck would you rocket jump over a sentry to begin with.[/QUOTE] I think the problem here is the lack of a proper skill-vs-reward ratio. When I play roamer Pyro and come across a GS engie, I am not skilled enough kill both the Engineer and mini before dying. In fact, I'm usually not even skilled enough to even take out the Engineer before dying. Does this make me a bad Pyro? I guess. If come up against a skillful Scout or Pyro or whatever, I'm probably fucked, and that's how it should be. The problem is, Gunslinger Engineers can easily outclass me[I] even if they themselves are much worse[/I]. Creating a minisentry requires you to press a couple buttons, and that's it. There's no aiming, basically no timing and barely any tactical positioning involved. Countering a minisentry requires you to locate and kill two targets, one of which moves and one of which is tiny as hell, in less than five seconds. That doesn't make sense. And yeah, of course it's possible to take out minisentries when you have your teammates to support you. What does that prove? If a certain item makes one player so powerful that it takes several players to counter it, that seems pretty close to the definition of unbalanced. By the way I'm saying this as someone who partially mains Gunslinger Engineer.

[QUOTE=Metaru;40786107]oh please, cry me a river. you went ahead on your own instead of get support from your team. you traded firepower and defense for mobility. if a mini killed you, it was because it was meant to kill you because you were alone. minis sure sound op as hell when the context you put them is basically 1v1. of course the engie will will you if he's paying attention, thats the whole fucking point of combat sentries after all: to stay close to them and being able to be around at any time, something the regular sentry isnt even close to be able. its one of the greatest drawbacks people had when playing engineer outside of defense: either you have the time to get it to lvl 2 or you were fucked. you dont want to get killed when rocket jumping over a sentry? why the fuck would you rocket jump over a sentry to begin with.[/QUOTE] It is the only real counter to roamer classes, and by roamer classes I mean pyro, scout, spy, soldier, demoman, anyone who goes ahead of their team to take care of things that their team isn't able to take care of, such as picking off medics and strong players. It is a kind of teamwork and it is needed for game balance. And minis counter every single one of those classes effortlessly. It's overpowered and annoying at once, two most major reasons to nerf an item.

Considering DatWut's ambition to compile the 'results' of this thread in a mail to Valve, should we start trying to sum up some of the debate on the most discussed weapons? Here's what I've gathered from the Axtinguisher/Degreaser discussion, for example; there seems to be a relative consensus (which I personally disagree with, but that's beside the point) that the Axtinguisher/Degreaser combo is unfair, but a lot of people seem to think both weapons are basically ok on their own. The two most popular suggested tweaks are: [B]1)[/B] Move the Degreaser's weapon switch speed bonus to the Gas Jockey's Gear set and move the GJG speed bonus to the Degreaser in return. [B]2)[/B] Replace the Axtinguisher's 50% damage penalty against non-burning players with a 30% general damage penalty. Correct me if you think I've gotten the consensus wrong. There's also a fair number of tweaks on various weapons throughout the thread that have 10+ positive ratings and no negative ratings. Should we consider those agreed upon?

The issue isn't the axtinguisher, there's no reason to nerf it as it'll become useless for pyros [U]not[/U] using the degreaser Everything can easily be fixed by making all fire-boosted crits into mini-crits while having the degreaser equipped, aka flaregun and axtinguisher only deals mini-crits instead of crits The flaregun still deals extra damage, axtinguisher is still useful because of the +50% damage bonus, kritz/random crits/etc still deal proper damage It's not a radical change like a speed boost or complete stat retweak, so it's more likely to pass too

[QUOTE=Deodorant;40788087]Considering DatWut's ambition to compile the 'results' of this thread in a mail to Valve, should we start trying to sum up some of the debate on the most discussed weapons? Here's what I've gathered from the Axtinguisher/Degreaser discussion, for example; there seems to be a relative consensus (which I personally disagree with, but that's beside the point) that the Axtinguisher/Degreaser combo is unfair, but a lot of people seem to think both weapons are basically ok on their own. The two most popular suggested tweaks are: [B]1)[/B] Move the Degreaser's weapon switch speed bonus to the Gas Jockey's Gear set and move the GJG speed bonus to the Degreaser in return. [B]2)[/B] Replace the Axtinguisher's 50% damage penalty against non-burning players with a 30% general damage penalty. Correct me if you think I've gotten the consensus wrong. There's also a fair number of tweaks on various weapons throughout the thread that have 10+ positive ratings and no negative ratings. Should we consider those agreed upon?[/QUOTE] I feel like those people at Valve should somehow realize they need to care about these things and even though they hate reading, this thread should be an exception. We have people here who actually play the game arguing about things that grind their gears and it's only like 8 pages long, they must have written essays longer than that get their job. If there's anything on the internet they have to read it is this thread, and if there's anything they should think about it is the both sides of arguments that have taken place here. There are so many diverse opinions on what needs nerfing and how and the people who disagree with them are the most vocal, therefore you're never going to end up with an universal sheet of stat suggestions to send to Eric Smith so he could "forward it to appropriate people"