The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

[QUOTE=IronBar;41294021]effectively a direct upgrade[/QUOTE] This is unrelated to the content of the post, but I want to point out that IronBar is doing something very good here and that everyone should learn from it. 'Direct Upgrade' refers to an unlock with some upside (no matter how small) and no downside whatsoever. It's a convenient term for a very specific thing, but people keep misusing it and getting everyone confused. The Degreaser ha negative traits, which means that calling it a 'direct upgrade' is wrong and bad. As IronBar neatly points out, however, those traits are designed in such a way that they become insignificant to the playstyle encouraged by the positive trait, meaning that the weapon works similarly to a straight upgrade without actually being one. Describing it as 'effectively a direct upgrade' gets that point across perfectly without butchering any of the terms involved. Please do this more, people.

-snip, incredibly dumb in retrospect-

[QUOTE=IronBar;41294021]Time for more Degreaser? No? Well, you're getting it anyway! Honestly, the downsides for the Degreaser are ridiculous. You get a passive +65% weapon switch speed, which is a MASSIVE buff, since it lets you switch to any weapon in almost no time. It directly makes the Axtinguisher and other weapons better. Now the Pyro can effortlessly deal ~200 damage in less than a second just for getting into melee range and can easily airblast any time due to the short time to switch. What is the downside for this huge buff? Must be a major trade-off, right? Slightly shorter afterburn and little bit less damage on the Degreaser. What do Pyros with Degreaser usually do? Not use the Degreaser. They simply fire off one unit of ammo to set some on fire, airblast/switch to Axtinguisher/Flare Gun/etc. and use those instead. Basically, you trade a small bit of damage from the flamethrower in exchange for the ability to deal way more damage and even easier airblasting. And almost every Pyro uses it, because it's effectively a direct upgrade, since the penalty doesn't match with the huge buff. I can't really think of a good way of balancing it. Lower the switch speed bonus? Give it the Backburner's airblast penalty? Less health? Make the switch speed only have effect when switching from Degreaser to another weapon? I don't know, I'm just getting sick of seeing every Pyro being the generic Degreaser-Axtinguisher combo since it's just so effective.[/QUOTE] I use the Degreaser because it completes my set bonus and I like hitting people with the Powerjack. If you're not using your actual fire as the PYRO, you're not playing Pyro correctly. Yes, the Degreaser encourages poor Pyro play and so do the kills they get with the Axtinguisher. The problem isn't with JUST the Degreaser, or JUST the Axtinguisher. It's the two combined. Nerfing one or the other will ruin them in tandem with other weapons, while adding a conditional nerf when the two are equipped together is beyond silly. It also really doesn't help that you're complaining about the Pyro doing 200+ damage in a short period of time, [I]when the Pyro should be able to do that to begin with because he's useless at other ranges.[/I] [QUOTE=Deodorant;41294481]This is unrelated to the content of the post, but I want to point out that IronBar is doing something very good here and that everyone should learn from it. 'Direct Upgrade' refers to an unlock with some upside (no matter how small) and no downside whatsoever. It's a convenient term for a very specific thing, but people keep misusing it and getting everyone confused. The Degreaser ha negative traits, which means that calling it a 'direct upgrade' is wrong and bad. As IronBar neatly points out, however, those traits are designed in such a way that they become insignificant to the playstyle encouraged by the positive trait, meaning that the weapon works similarly to a straight upgrade without actually being one. Describing it as 'effectively a direct upgrade' gets that point across perfectly without butchering any of the terms involved. Please do this more, people.[/QUOTE] if you want examples of this, look at a LOT of melee weapons. amputator and solemn vow immediately come to mind.

[QUOTE=Deodorant;41294481]This is unrelated to the content of the post, but I want to point out that IronBar is doing something very good here and that everyone should learn from it. 'Direct Upgrade' refers to an unlock with some upside (no matter how small) and no downside whatsoever. It's a convenient term for a very specific thing, but people keep misusing it and getting everyone confused. The Degreaser ha negative traits, which means that calling it a 'direct upgrade' is wrong and bad. As IronBar neatly points out, however, those traits are designed in such a way that they become insignificant to the playstyle encouraged by the positive trait, meaning that the weapon works similarly to a straight upgrade without actually being one. Describing it as 'effectively a direct upgrade' gets that point across perfectly without butchering any of the terms involved. Please do this more, people.[/QUOTE] An alternative term for this is [i]Practical Upgrade[/i]. A direct upgrade is an upgrade that is completely better in every way both on-paper and in-play. A practical upgrade is one that may look balanced on paper, but for all practical purposes it's going to be better off than the stock. [QUOTE=Unisath;41299414]I use the Degreaser because it completes my set bonus and I like hitting people with the Powerjack. If you're not using your actual fire as the PYRO, you're not playing Pyro correctly. Yes, the Degreaser encourages poor Pyro play and so do the kills they get with the Axtinguisher. The problem isn't with JUST the Degreaser, or JUST the Axtinguisher. It's the two combined. Nerfing one or the other will ruin them in tandem with other weapons, while adding a conditional nerf when the two are equipped together is beyond silly. It also really doesn't help that you're complaining about the Pyro doing 200+ damage in a short period of time, [I]when the Pyro should be able to do that to begin with because he's useless at other ranges.[/I][/QUOTE] The problem with Pyro is the stock flamethrower. Had the flame mechanics not been so laughably horrendous to begin with, no one in their mind would think of something as silly as adding a melee weapon that crits or a compressed air blast. The Pyro could have been capable of standing on its own two feet but the horrible mechanics it was built around dragged it into a pit of mediocrity where it absolutely needs these mechanics in order to even attempt to stack up against other classes. I know I've said it time and again, but I think it's worth rementioning. Flamethrower: Particles work like the Quake Lightning Gun Has range of 512 hammer units Afterburn scales in intensity based on how long the victim has been burnt No airblast Make these changes to the class and then meticulously rebalance everything else about Pyro because nothing about Pyro is balanced around being a class with a potent primary weapon. Hell they could keep the horrendously broken mechanics on the Degreaser if every other flamethrower is going to be [i]useable[/i]. The thing would have an airblast unique to it. Give the Backburner some unique alt-fire that emphasizes ambushing if you want to have an ambush-centric weapon. Make the Phlog less dumb...like the Plasma Gun from Quake but it sets people on fire. There's so much potential that the Pyro has that's been completely squandered and it's just frustrating to see go to waste.

[QUOTE] Also, as for the Market Gardener, I don't really see what was wrong with it, or how this change would solve any problem it could have. I guess now, a crit can kill a full health Soldier? I dunno, seems unneccesary to me. [/QUOTE] I'm just trying to level stuff with stock, also making the weapon shine in your own niche, like the gardener, if you're going to jump on people, now you can 1hit ko soldiers, but, if your going to derp arround on the ground, it's better to use the shovel or other melee, sorry, but I play comp and I really don't think that no random crits fix a weapon, like for example the old blut, nowdays I see medics with syringe gun. For example, Third Degree have an awesome and intresting game mechanic, really creative, but if we... [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/9/91/Item_icon_Third_Degree.png/100px-Item_icon_Third_Degree.png?t=20120630232623[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png?t=20110419094531[/IMG]Damage transfers to all players connected by Medic beams. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png?t=20110419094531[/IMG]+25% Damage to players connected by Medic beams. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png?t=20110419094531[/IMG]on hit: debuffs are shared by players connected by Medic beams. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png?t=20110419092839[/IMG]-50% Damage vs players not connected by Medic beams. Let's analise what I have done here, the weapon is by concept, an anti-pocket weapon, so the new stats fits the theme, now it does it work better, also don't diminish the victims skill, since if the medic have a fast reaction, he can switch weapons to protect himself or the pocket, also for example, a soldier can react fast an switch to equalizer/scape plan to protect the medic, but, still the patient are not being healed with leave room for harass, from both parts, since it's a situational weapon, it will perform bad out of it's niche, for other situations you have, primary and secundary, also it's not an upgrade anymore, that's the point, also the status of sharing debuffs makes the team work more intresting, since that marked for death that scout put on soldier's got on medic too if they are not very carefull, see the point ?

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;41300232] The problem with Pyro is the stock flamethrower. Had the flame mechanics not been so laughably horrendous to begin with, no one in their mind would think of something as silly as adding a melee weapon that crits or a compressed air blast. The Pyro could have been capable of standing on its own two feet but the horrible mechanics it was built around dragged it into a pit of mediocrity where it absolutely needs these mechanics in order to even attempt to stack up against other classes. I know I've said it time and again, but I think it's worth rementioning. Flamethrower: Particles work like the Quake Lightning Gun Has range of 512 hammer units Afterburn scales in intensity based on how long the victim has been burnt No airblast Make these changes to the class and then meticulously rebalance everything else about Pyro because nothing about Pyro is balanced around being a class with a potent primary weapon. Hell they could keep the horrendously broken mechanics on the Degreaser if every other flamethrower is going to be [i]useable[/i]. The thing would have an airblast unique to it. Give the Backburner some unique alt-fire that emphasizes ambushing if you want to have an ambush-centric weapon. Make the Phlog less dumb...like the Plasma Gun from Quake but it sets people on fire. There's so much potential that the Pyro has that's been completely squandered and it's just frustrating to see go to waste.[/QUOTE] From your post, i didn't understand what exactly is bad with the default flamethrower. What is so horrendous in flame mechanics? Why is a melee weapon that correlates really well with the primary weapon silly? Why is airblast silly? Why do you think pyro has no match against other classes in vanilla situation? What is different in your suggestion in terms of ground "Flame stuff" mechanics, except for some "Remove airblast, tweak afterburn" suggestion? Instant damage on click? Shorter( seemingly ) range?Why? Pyro is fine as a class, even without an airblast, possessing a undeniably good damage, frying stuff in seconds even without the buff or the comp. blast, very good hp/damage ratio, allowing for high survivability, and a decent speed. The pyro serves the purpose of ambusher/chaos inflictor pretty well in my humble opinion. About the degreaser... it's a crutch. It's one of the weapons that should be nerfed to hell. I also agree that is should be viewed as a combo weapon, because of the weapon change speed. I'd say that is should be given CONSIDERABLY less damage( 4 dmg/particle? ) and probably tweaking the percentage of the change speed. That's probably all we can do without completely changing the weapon's behavior.

[QUOTE=hawk18727;41301317]Pyro is fine as a class, even without an airblast, possessing a undeniably good damage, frying stuff in seconds even without the buff or the comp. blast, very good hp/damage ratio, allowing for high survivability, and a decent speed. The pyro serves the purpose of ambusher/chaos inflictor pretty well in my humble opinion.[/QUOTE] You are incorrect. Pre-Pyro update, there was nothing potent about the Pyro that wasn't already in the hands of other classes. The only redeeming things unique to the Flamethrower are a lingering 60 damage and projectiles that penetrate through players and buildings. The latter has been subjected to a powercreep as well as general awareness of players rising, rendering it's "panic-inducing" abilities laughable at best. The penetration is easily mitigated by not standing right next to each other, which is really easy when player competency rises. So even before anything is added in this update, nothing about the Pyro is threatening except against poor players. "Undeniably good damage" pretty much confirms that you know little of the class as a whole. The Flamethrower deals less potential DPS than the Syringe Gun, a weapon used primarily in self-defense by a healing class. If that's not cluing you into the fact that the Flamethrower is awful at doing damage, I don't know what is. The entire reason that the flamethrower has such pitiful DPS is because it's so easy to use at an entry level. But once you reach any amount of competency, the flamethrower particles are so low-range, low-damage, and low-reliability that you're way better off using another class. Having no forms of burst damage or mobility makes the Pyro a horrendous ambusher compared to Scout and Spy. Every other class in the game is a more potent ambusher in the game bar Medic: Scout, Demoman, Soldier, and Spy all have the power and tools of mobility to do lots of damage. Heavy, Sniper, and Engineer all have damage on their side if they get the drop on someone. What does Pyro have? 60 extra damage after the Pyro gets killed that might not even live its full 10 seconds if the victim has a Medic with him or knows where the health sources are. This is in a 1v1 ambush situation too, so his particles penetrating the victim are completely irrelevant, if you do get a 1v2 ambush, you're even less likely to survive, but maybe you'll get lucky to tag both of them for 60 damage after you die. That's not a worthy tradeoff for the Pyro. And another thing, the Pyro was never intentionally designed to be an ambush class. Back in 1996 when the first Team Fortress came out, Pyro was literally the guy with a flamethrower. The class hasn't changed over the course of 10 years (other than removing his incendiary rocket launcher and napalm grenades) and he was shoehorned into his "role" in 2007. He wasn't even very good at it due to lack of burst damage. In the same timeframe, the Scout and Medic got complete overhauls so they'd work better in the context of TF2, Pyro didn't get such treatment. I want you to try to play Pyro in a competent environment without once touching your secondary fire or using anything other than the shotgun or fireaxe. I want you to see just how horrible the Flamethrower is on its own as a weapon. The reason I called the non-fire mechanics silly is because they are. Just think about it: [i]Why would anyone ever think of adding such a mechanic to a class that has a potent and useable primary weapon?[/i] Honestly, think about it. If you can't wrap your mind around it, I'll make it simpler. Imagine Stock Scout, he's rather balanced and capable as an ambush and general combat class. Now imagine giving him an airblast. Seems downright ridiculous, right? He's completely fine already, why would he need even more of an advantage? This is where Pyro is different from the other classes. Other classes don't need added things in order to stay competitive with other classes. Pyro [i]needs[/i] these things just to stay even remotely competitive, and even then he's still getting destroyed by competent players even when the Pyro himself is competent. Ask any high-level Pyro and they'll offer similar sentiments as I have.

Really, pyro is more a support-combat role than anything else. Keep fire off your team-mates and just support pushes, kill spies and help team-mates kill dudes. He's alright in 1v1, but you do need to use other weapons and abilities. Pyro is basically the Miscellaneous class, doing all the stuff that no other class has business doing. I have no idea why I enjoy playing as him so much, nor why I do well at all.

[b]Soda Popper[/b] – Re-Work [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/f1/Item_icon_Soda_Popper.png/100px-Item_icon_Soda_Popper.png?t=20120630234309[/img] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] 50% Firing Speed [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] 25% Reload Speed [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] [b]Build “Hype” by killing enemies[/b] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] [b]Takes about 3 kills or 9 assists to fill “Hype”[/b] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] When “Hype” is full, unleash Mini-Crits [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] 66% Smaller Clip Size [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] No Random Critical Hits [b]Hidden Attribute: When “Hype” is activated, scout will cheer loudly[/b] [b]Shortstop[/b] -nerf [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/8/84/Item_icon_Shortstop.png/100px-Item_icon_Shortstop.png?t=20120630234226[/img] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] Low Damage Fall-Off [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] Pistol Range [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] Single Reload [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] 34% Clip Size [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] 20% Slower Reload Speed [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] [b]15% Slower Firing Speed[/b] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] Uses Secondary Ammo Reserve [b]Baby Face’s Blaster[/b] -buff [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/e/e6/Item_icon_Baby_Face%27s_Blaster.png/100px-Item_icon_Baby_Face%27s_Blaster.png?t=20120630233443[/img] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] 40% Accuracy Bonus [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] On Hit: Build Boost [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] Run at up to double speed at maximum boost [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] 30% damage penalty [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] 35% base movement speed [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] [b]Double Jump[/b] resets boost [b]Winger[/b] -buff [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/4e/Item_icon_Winger.png/100px-Item_icon_Winger.png?t=20120630234717[/img] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] 15% Damage Bonus [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] [b]20% Faster Weapon Switch Speed[/b] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] [b]25% Accuracy Bonus[/b] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] [b]50% Smaller Clip Size[/b] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] [b]No Random Critical Hits[/b] [b]Sun-on-a-Stick[/b] - buff [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/0/06/Item_icon_Sun-on-a-Stick.png/100px-Item_icon_Sun-on-a-Stick.png?t=20120630233913[/img] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] 100% Critical Hits vs Burning Players [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] [b]Hit Yourself and Teammates to Cauterize Bleeding and Dry Yourself of Mad Milk, Jarate and Water[/b] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] 25% Damage Penalty

[QUOTE=Mentlegen;41241644]Alright so I was playing with the Quick-Fix earlier and was inspired to try and fix it. [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/50/Item_icon_Quick-Fix.png/100px-Item_icon_Quick-Fix.png?t=20120630233648[/img] +Mega-Heal heals the Medic +Mega-Heal shortens effects (Afterburn, Bleed-out, etc) Basically, it makes the Mega-Heal pretty damn useful and slightly more on par with the Ubercharge. Hear me out a bit on the effects though. First off, one of my main problems with the Quick-Fix is that it doesn't stop or shorten afterburn. The Ubercharge instantly puts out afterburn on effect, so why not the Mega-Heal? The Quick-Fix is about getting your guys back out there, and it's annoying that I can't just heal the guy and be on my way to the next injured patient. I know people are against weakening afterburn, but it's going to be put out anyways. It's not going to out-damage the fucking Quick-Fix's heal rate. Second off, why does it not self-heal the Medic? Seriously, what the fuck were they thinking? I'm not asking for vulnerability, but if I don't have a heal patient and I need to run I'm fucking screwed because my Mega-Heal doesn't fucking heal me. If anything, I would just really like it to heal me as I run away. That's the biggest problem for me. There's no reason why it doesn't just do that. The Ubercharge gives you invulnerability, why doesn't the Mega-Heal give me a fast regeneration? Just my two cents, as I like to use the weapon on Defense with another Medic. It's not very good on its own, but these might help it out a bit in that respect. [sp]Also, possibly have it slowly suck up Mad Milk and Jarate to shorten those effects too? That would be a pretty interesting use.[/sp][/QUOTE] I always thought the 300% heal affected the Medic self-healing. Are you telling me that it doesn't? Or by "heals the Medic" you mean to give it the same effect as the Phlog's Mmmph?

-damn I'm stupid-

[QUOTE=kibbleknight;41351149]Scout[/QUOTE] Why did you nerf two scatterguns that aren't OP and then buff the one that's a balanced sidegrade? Soda Popper is a stupid concept but not overpowered. In fact, it's pretty inferior to the normal scatter unless you're a robot who never misses your scatter shots. Shortstop is just generally really there. It's an OK weapon, but definitely not in need of a nerf. BFB is an incredibly viable sidegrade, the only issue of course being its map-situationalness.

I have a problem with direct upgrades. I mean, of course no one would use a bonesaw when you can have the übersaw, and just giving the ability to see the enemy's health to it, like the solemn vow, would be weird, but I really feel bad when I see my s. Fire axe sitting in my backpack and knowing that I'll never use it because I can always have a third-degree. Who knows maybe giving these weapons a little 5%~10% bonus damage, pretty please?

[QUOTE=Omninerd;41351225]I always thought the 300% heal affected the Medic self-healing. Are you telling me that it doesn't? Or by "heals the Medic" you mean to give it the same effect as the Phlog's Mmmph?[/QUOTE] The Quick-Fix does not affect the Medic's self-heal. Also, I am talking about Mega-Heal. (The Quick-Fix's ubercharge) Basically, the Ubercharge lets the Medic uber himself to escape certain death, but the Mega-Heal does not heal the Medic unless he is healing someone during the Mega-Heal. This is basically Valve's way of saying "FUCK YOU!" to Medic's who use the Quick-Fix. [editline]7th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=VintageCat;41351283]So, 6.5 bullets?[/QUOTE] How the fuck do you get 6.5 bullets out of 12? Half of 12 is 6 dude. :v:

[QUOTE=Mentlegen;41351602]The Quick-Fix does not affect the Medic's self-heal. Also, I am talking about Mega-Heal. (The Quick-Fix's ubercharge) Basically, the Ubercharge lets the Medic uber himself to escape certain death, but the Mega-Heal does not heal the Medic unless he is healing someone during the Mega-Heal. This is basically Valve's way of saying "FUCK YOU!" to Medic's who use the Quick-Fix. [/QUOTE] You'd be able to have perpetual healing + knockback resistance if you Megaheal yourself, Ubersaw someone, swap back and repeat. [editline]7th July 2013[/editline] Yeah it's a silly reason to not have it apply to yourself but it's still a reason.

[QUOTE=kibbleknight;41351149] [b]Shortstop[/b] -nerf [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/8/84/Item_icon_Shortstop.png/100px-Item_icon_Shortstop.png?t=20120630234226[/img] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] Low Damage Fall-Off [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] Pistol Range [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] Single Reload [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] 34% Clip Size [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] 20% Slower Reload Speed [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] [b]15% Slower Firing Speed[/b] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] Uses Secondary Ammo Reserve [/QUOTE] Whats wrong with the shortstop?

[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/a/a4/Item_icon_Ali_Baba%27s_Wee_Booties.png/63px-Item_icon_Ali_Baba%27s_Wee_Booties.png?t=20120630235003[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/4c/Item_icon_Bootlegger.png/63px-Item_icon_Bootlegger.png?t=20111014012113[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/0/0f/Item_icon_Razorback.png/63px-Item_icon_Razorback.png?t=20120701003219[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/44/Item_icon_Darwin%27s_Danger_Shield.png/63px-Item_icon_Darwin%27s_Danger_Shield.png?t=20120630231406[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/0/01/Item_icon_Cozy_Camper.png/63px-Item_icon_Cozy_Camper.png?t=20120701012345[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/7/7c/Item_icon_Invis_Watch.png/63px-Item_icon_Invis_Watch.png?t=20120630234343[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/0/00/Item_icon_Cloak_and_Dagger.png/63px-Item_icon_Cloak_and_Dagger.png?t=20120630233141[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/b/b7/Item_icon_Dead_Ringer.png/63px-Item_icon_Dead_Ringer.png?t=20120630233616[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/1/10/Item_icon_Enthusiast%27s_Timepiece.png/63px-Item_icon_Enthusiast%27s_Timepiece.png?t=20120630234610[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/f6/Item_icon_Quackenbirdt.png/63px-Item_icon_Quackenbirdt.png?t=20121117164907[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/9/98/Item_icon_Persian_Persuader.png/100px-Item_icon_Persian_Persuader.png?t=20120630232234[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/c3/Item_icon_Splendid_Screen.png/63px-Item_icon_Splendid_Screen.png?t=20120630233508[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png?t=20110419092839[/IMG] Removed from Medieval Mode whitelist [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/a/a9/Item_icon_Half-Zatoichi.png/100px-Item_icon_Half-Zatoichi.png?t=20120630234146[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png?t=20110419092839[/IMG] Cannot be equipped by Demoman in Medieval Mode And now for something somewhat unrelated [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/a/a9/Item_icon_Half-Zatoichi.png/100px-Item_icon_Half-Zatoichi.png?t=20120630234146[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png?t=20110419094531[/IMG] Has same range as other swords [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png?t=20110419092839[/IMG] No random crits

are you drunk

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;41351695]You'd be able to have perpetual healing + knockback resistance if you Megaheal yourself, Ubersaw someone, swap back and repeat. [editline]7th July 2013[/editline] Yeah it's a silly reason to not have it apply to yourself but it's still a reason.[/QUOTE] But what about the Uber and the Vaccinator? Both apply the effect on the Medic. Even the Kritz, even useless without patient, is applied. Plus a Sniper, a crit boosted heavy hitter or a Spy can take the Medic down with the Mega-Heal on himself. It's not like he's invincible. And sometimes, knockback resistance is a bad thing. I often use Sentry push-back to escape from it and Mantreads don't allow me to. Neither is it immune to airblast. Speaking of which, there is nothing right now that counters the Airblast. I remember the Beta having a Fist of Steel with Airblast immunity. I still think they should add the attribute to a future weapon or on a current one (ex: FoS, Mantreads, Full Boost BFB)

[QUOTE=Arthamus;41351922]are you drunk[/QUOTE] Sometimes I wish I was

[QUOTE=ASIC;41351755]Whats wrong with the shortstop?[/QUOTE] It's problems are unfixable really. They made a kiting weapon to the class that's already fucking amazing at kiting and didn't think about how it changed everything. I have described it as "TFC scout on steroids" because it is -- TFC scout was fast and weak, he got his kills on people who were chasing him but couldn't catch him. He was primarily the flag runner. Tf2 scout changed him around to be an in-your-face assault class and kiting with the pistol being primarily used to finish off people who are chasing after him. He's way more mobile nowadays out the gate, whereas TFC scout had a limited supply of conc grenades to use. tl;dr midrange Scout is already hard to touch if he has any idea how to dodge. Making a weapon that is both most-effective and potent in that range just makes it all-around frustrating for the victim who can't chase after him. There are reasons why the Pistol isn't too great at killing except on weakened players at that range.

[QUOTE=Mr. Jelly;41351870][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/a/a4/Item_icon_Ali_Baba%27s_Wee_Booties.png/63px-Item_icon_Ali_Baba%27s_Wee_Booties.png?t=20120630235003[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/4c/Item_icon_Bootlegger.png/63px-Item_icon_Bootlegger.png?t=20111014012113[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/0/0f/Item_icon_Razorback.png/63px-Item_icon_Razorback.png?t=20120701003219[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/44/Item_icon_Darwin%27s_Danger_Shield.png/63px-Item_icon_Darwin%27s_Danger_Shield.png?t=20120630231406[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/0/01/Item_icon_Cozy_Camper.png/63px-Item_icon_Cozy_Camper.png?t=20120701012345[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/7/7c/Item_icon_Invis_Watch.png/63px-Item_icon_Invis_Watch.png?t=20120630234343[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/0/00/Item_icon_Cloak_and_Dagger.png/63px-Item_icon_Cloak_and_Dagger.png?t=20120630233141[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/b/b7/Item_icon_Dead_Ringer.png/63px-Item_icon_Dead_Ringer.png?t=20120630233616[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/1/10/Item_icon_Enthusiast%27s_Timepiece.png/63px-Item_icon_Enthusiast%27s_Timepiece.png?t=20120630234610[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/f6/Item_icon_Quackenbirdt.png/63px-Item_icon_Quackenbirdt.png?t=20121117164907[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/9/98/Item_icon_Persian_Persuader.png/100px-Item_icon_Persian_Persuader.png?t=20120630232234[/IMG][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/c3/Item_icon_Splendid_Screen.png/63px-Item_icon_Splendid_Screen.png?t=20120630233508[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png?t=20110419092839[/IMG] Removed from Medieval Mode whitelist [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/a/a9/Item_icon_Half-Zatoichi.png/100px-Item_icon_Half-Zatoichi.png?t=20120630234146[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png?t=20110419092839[/IMG] Cannot be equipped by Demoman in Medieval Mode And now for something somewhat unrelated [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/a/a9/Item_icon_Half-Zatoichi.png/100px-Item_icon_Half-Zatoichi.png?t=20120630234146[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png?t=20110419094531[/IMG] Has same range as other swords [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png?t=20110419092839[/IMG] No random crits[/QUOTE] "Oh no! That Sniper is using the Cozy Camper in Medieval mode! He gains 2 health per second, there is no way my melee weapon can out-damage that!"

[QUOTE=Mentlegen;41352115]"Oh no! That Sniper is using the Cozy Camper in Medieval mode! He gains 2 health per second, there is no way my melee weapon can out-damage that!"[/QUOTE] It's more of the principle of the thing. Why does that one guy get to use his entire loadout while everyone else is stuck with their melees?

Also I'd like to clarify by the second Zatoichi one, I mean in addition to its current stats

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;41352236]It's more of the principle of the thing. Why does that one guy get to use his entire loadout while everyone else is stuck with their melees?[/QUOTE] It could be fixed by making more passive weapons. [editline]8th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=kibbleknight;41351149] [b]Baby Face’s Blaster[/b] -buff [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/e/e6/Item_icon_Baby_Face%27s_Blaster.png/100px-Item_icon_Baby_Face%27s_Blaster.png?t=20120630233443[/img] [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] 40% Accuracy Bonus [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] On Hit: Build Boost [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t] Run at up to double speed at maximum boost [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] 30% damage penalty [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] 35% base movement speed [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t] [b]Double Jump[/b] resets boost [/QUOTE] This wouldn't contribute much except lower the skill floor of a good enough weapon.

[QUOTE=davidrb18;41354128]It could be fixed by making more passive weapons.[/QUOTE] "This quadruple chocolate cake doesn't taste good." "Put more chocolate on it." In all honesty though, I don't think there's any hope for Medieval. I stopped playing that game mode who knows how long ago.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;41301639]You are incorrect. Pre-Pyro update, there was nothing potent about the Pyro that wasn't already in the hands of other classes. The only redeeming things unique to the Flamethrower are a lingering 60 damage and projectiles that penetrate through players and buildings. The latter has been subjected to a powercreep as well as general awareness of players rising, rendering it's "panic-inducing" abilities laughable at best. The penetration is easily mitigated by not standing right next to each other, which is really easy when player competency rises. So even before anything is added in this update, nothing about the Pyro is threatening except against poor players. "Undeniably good damage" pretty much confirms that you know little of the class as a whole. The Flamethrower deals less potential DPS than the Syringe Gun, a weapon used primarily in self-defense by a healing class. If that's not cluing you into the fact that the Flamethrower is awful at doing damage, I don't know what is. The entire reason that the flamethrower has such pitiful DPS is because it's so easy to use at an entry level. But once you reach any amount of competency, the flamethrower particles are so low-range, low-damage, and low-reliability that you're way better off using another class. Having no forms of burst damage or mobility makes the Pyro a horrendous ambusher compared to Scout and Spy. Every other class in the game is a more potent ambusher in the game bar Medic: Scout, Demoman, Soldier, and Spy all have the power and tools of mobility to do lots of damage. Heavy, Sniper, and Engineer all have damage on their side if they get the drop on someone. What does Pyro have? 60 extra damage after the Pyro gets killed that might not even live its full 10 seconds if the victim has a Medic with him or knows where the health sources are. This is in a 1v1 ambush situation too, so his particles penetrating the victim are completely irrelevant, if you do get a 1v2 ambush, you're even less likely to survive, but maybe you'll get lucky to tag both of them for 60 damage after you die. That's not a worthy tradeoff for the Pyro. And another thing, the Pyro was never intentionally designed to be an ambush class. Back in 1996 when the first Team Fortress came out, Pyro was literally the guy with a flamethrower. The class hasn't changed over the course of 10 years (other than removing his incendiary rocket launcher and napalm grenades) and he was shoehorned into his "role" in 2007. He wasn't even very good at it due to lack of burst damage. In the same timeframe, the Scout and Medic got complete overhauls so they'd work better in the context of TF2, Pyro didn't get such treatment. I want you to try to play Pyro in a competent environment without once touching your secondary fire or using anything other than the shotgun or fireaxe. I want you to see just how horrible the Flamethrower is on its own as a weapon. The reason I called the non-fire mechanics silly is because they are. Just think about it: [i]Why would anyone ever think of adding such a mechanic to a class that has a potent and useable primary weapon?[/i] Honestly, think about it. If you can't wrap your mind around it, I'll make it simpler. Imagine Stock Scout, he's rather balanced and capable as an ambush and general combat class. Now imagine giving him an airblast. Seems downright ridiculous, right? He's completely fine already, why would he need even more of an advantage? This is where Pyro is different from the other classes. Other classes don't need added things in order to stay competitive with other classes. Pyro [i]needs[/i] these things just to stay even remotely competitive, and even then he's still getting destroyed by competent players even when the Pyro himself is competent. Ask any high-level Pyro and they'll offer similar sentiments as I have.[/QUOTE] you're my favorite TF2 section poster

[QUOTE=GastricTank;41354193]"This quadruple chocolate cake doesn't taste good." "Put more chocolate on it." In all honesty though, I don't think there's any hope for Medieval. I stopped playing that game mode who knows how long ago.[/QUOTE] Nobody I know played medieval more than once.

[QUOTE=Magmacow358;41354343]Nobody I know played medieval more than once.[/QUOTE] You should get to know me

Late question: What's with the "fix the loch-n-load"?