The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

I don't agree with the idea of buffing the pyro and leaving the degreaser+axtinguisher as it is. That's not how you balance overpowered classes.

Don't nerf the gas jockey set again.

[QUOTE=ASIC;41505200]Don't nerf the gas jockey set again.[/QUOTE] The set would not be nerfed by that at all, as powerjack's speed bonus would make up for the speed penalty degreaser gives with those stats.

[QUOTE=OffTheRoad;41505265]The set would not be nerfed by that at all, as powerjack's speed bonus would make up for the speed penalty degreaser gives with those stats.[/QUOTE] That's only when it is active. It would mess up the "spirit" of the set even more. [editline]18th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=PSI Guy;41500432]Stock Pyro [B]115% movement speed Firing flamethrowers reduces your speed over time, up to -25% speed for firing over 10 seconds[/B] [/QUOTE] Why would you make using the flamethrower make you slower?

[QUOTE=ASIC;41505336]That's only when it is active. It would mess up the "spirit" of the set even more. [editline]18th July 2013[/editline] Why would you make using the flamethrower make you slower?[/QUOTE] But the degreaser stats clearly say that using it would not be affected by the firing mechanic unlike other flamers.

[QUOTE=OffTheRoad;41505360]But the degreaser stats clearly say that using it would not be affected by the firing mechanic unlike other flamers.[/QUOTE] I know but that messes up the normal flamethrowers.

[QUOTE=ASIC;41505387]I know but that messes up the normal flamethrowers.[/QUOTE] How is that related to nerfing gas jockey set? I'd see that as a buff rather than a nerf.

So you want a pyro running at scout speeds with powerjack

[QUOTE=C4rnage;41505410]So you want a pyro running at scout speeds with powerjack[/QUOTE] Hmm, never took that into consideration... I'll just shut up now.

As a person who uses the Loose Cannon a lot, I was wondering if there was anything wrong with it that needs fixing? With the introduction of the DONK mechanic, minicrits are possible, but sometimes the Minicrits only deal roughly 40 damage on top of the ~50 damage from the hit of the cannonball? Even when the projectile doesn't hit any surfaces, it still apears to be doing miniscule damage, most of the time doing less damage than the default 'nade launcher despite the Loose Cannon (supposedly) rewarding the player with more damage by having more timing and skill compared to that of the default. Or is that just me?

I always thought the detonator was stupid, so what did I decide to do? Think of my own stats for it of course! [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/d/d1/Detonator_RED.png/250px-Detonator_RED.png?t=20111123021656[/IMG] -10% range -25% damage +Leaves a small amount of fire burning on the ground after detonation A downgraded version of what this guy did.. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/b/ba/TFC_p_ic.png/120px-TFC_p_ic.png?t=20111215083447[/IMG]

[QUOTE=GastricTank;41505494]As a person who uses the Loose Cannon a lot, I was wondering if there was anything wrong with it that needs fixing? With the introduction of the DONK mechanic, minicrits are possible, but sometimes the Minicrits only deal roughly 40 damage on top of the ~50 damage from the hit of the cannonball? Even when the projectile doesn't hit any surfaces, it still apears to be doing miniscule damage, most of the time doing less damage than the default 'nade launcher despite the Loose Cannon (supposedly) rewarding the player with more damage by having more timing and skill compared to that of the default. Or is that just me?[/QUOTE] It's supposed to deal 25% more damage than the regular launcher, but i have a feeling it doesn't, considering the grenade launcher outdamages it most of the time(and the loch'n'load is a lot better and more reliable if you don't have issues connecting it) Maybe the -50% on the explosion counts even after hitting a player?

The Detonator is amazing and needs no fixing Higher jumps and the ability to reliably set anyone on fire from any distance, as well as to set crowds on fire, are really, really nice.

[QUOTE=PSI Guy;41500432]Stock Pyro [B]115% movement speed Firing flamethrowers reduces your speed over time, up to -25% speed for firing over 10 seconds[/B] Degreaser [B]+65% weapon switch bonus No slowdown from firing flamethrower -15% movement speed on wearer -10% damage penalty -33% afterburn damage penalty[/B] Axtinguisher [B]While weapon is out: 100% critical hits against burning players -10% movement speed on wearer -50% damage penalty against non-burning players[/B] There. Stock pyro buffed with a rework to the flamethrower, Degreaser remains the same as it is now, Axtinguisher is stronger without the Degreaser but weaker with it.[/QUOTE] Too much speed and the slowdown mechanic is stupid, it will make flaming groups impossible. Pyro needs changes to flamethrower mechanics more than speed effects.

[QUOTE=AbeX300;41435384]And maybe also retweaking the jump-boost mechanic for the Winger, assuming we want to stick with that mechanic and leave the damage and clip size differences alone. Instead of a measly +25% jump height on the first jump while active, have it affect on all additional jumps, and either make it a passive ability, or leave it as an active attribute but raising the number to +40%. I decided to use the 2Fort's bridge's roof for this, and at +40%, you are able to go from the ground to the roof by crouch double-jumping. [t]http://i.imgur.com/tJlvmx0.jpg[/t] [b]Note:[/b] I used sv_gravity to try to test this, and the thing is, sv_gravity 600 is [b]slightly[/b] lower than the Winger's +25% jump height. So in theory, +40% might [b]barely[/b] allow you to double-jump up there without needing to crouch.[/QUOTE] Also apparently the most informative fix idea I've made.

[QUOTE=GastricTank;41505494]As a person who uses the Loose Cannon a lot, I was wondering if there was anything wrong with it that needs fixing? With the introduction of the DONK mechanic, minicrits are possible, but sometimes the Minicrits only deal roughly 40 damage on top of the ~50 damage from the hit of the cannonball? Even when the projectile doesn't hit any surfaces, it still apears to be doing miniscule damage, most of the time doing less damage than the default 'nade launcher despite the Loose Cannon (supposedly) rewarding the player with more damage by having more timing and skill compared to that of the default. Or is that just me?[/QUOTE] i agree, overall i feel the weapon is kinda weaker than before. Before you could do quite damage with mid-long range shots, since it had reverse damage fall off. now without reverse damage fall off and 1second shorter fuse, you cant do long range shots. the problem of the donk mechanic is: since the cannon ball direct hit will knockback the enemy,unless you make the cannon ball explode nearly at the exact time you direct hit the enemy, the knockback will lower the donk damage since its a splash damage. they should increase the splash damage when it didnt hit any surface, and lower even more when it hits a surface

[QUOTE=OceanGovernor;41506791]Too much speed and the slowdown mechanic is stupid, it will make flaming groups impossible. Pyro needs changes to flamethrower mechanics more than speed effects.[/QUOTE] I was really hoping the last update would have a "Move Those Classes Up" post about tweaking some of the more fundamental class functionality, with the highlight on the Pyro's flamethrower. Clearly my hopes were too high. What problems exactly do people have with the flamethrowers as they work currently? Range, kill speed, randomness, skill ceiling, ambush potential (or general versatility)? Do people want to try to preserve or get rid of the pseudo-aoe functionality of afterburn? I've always been partial to the idea of a hitscan cone loosely based on a Quake-style lightning gun but trading range for a wider beam. The idea is to increase flamethrower effective range from close to medium while removing some of the randomness of the current particle system. I remember the lightning gun being fairly balanced and well-liked so it seemed like a good base to start from. You can tweak the width of the cone to adjust skill ceiling. Probably retain penetration (anything in the cone gets hit) for theme, although it can be sacrificed for balance. Increase the range over the current flamethrower based on what effective range you want the weapon to have. Perhaps add a quick damage ramp-up? Something like: damage per tick increases proportionally with fire damage done to the target in the last x seconds, with max damage reached in y seconds-worth of steady burn or something (mechanically, think of how crit chance works currently). I'd guess allowing any fire damage to work towards the ramp-up would be bad (incentivizing multiple pyros instead of each being self-contained seems like a balance headache) but perhaps your own flares should count. Or perhaps the whole ramp-up idea is unnecessary. It just seemed like a good lever for tweaking strength that fit thematically with being in a fire. Pyros too good/bad at ambushing? Lengthen/shorten ramp-up time. Kill speed too high/low? Tweak ramp-up time and bottom/top-end damage. Afterburn lowers the skill floor and increases utility, but complicates the rest of the balancing. Worth it? Also, I don't think any of this is originally my idea. Probably just things I've seen somewhere or other over the years and liked the sound of. Sorry if I'm swiping your idea.

Small idea for the Dead Ringer: Grants the Eternal Reward/Wanga Prick Spy a disguise if he triggers the Dead Ringer.

[QUOTE=C4rnage;41507108]i agree, overall i feel the weapon is kinda weaker than before. Before you could do quite damage with mid-long range shots, since it had reverse damage fall off. now without reverse damage fall off and 1second shorter fuse, you cant do long range shots. the problem of the donk mechanic is: since the cannon ball direct hit will knockback the enemy,unless you make the cannon ball explode nearly at the exact time you direct hit the enemy, the knockback will lower the donk damage since its a splash damage. they should increase the splash damage when it didnt hit any surface, and lower even more when it hits a surface[/QUOTE] That's the whole point of the DONK mechanic. It rewards you with having precise aim AND timing by making it explode just after the cannonball hits them. But either players count as a surface (explaining why even the DONK damage is miniscule) or the weapon is worded in a way that is confusing and doesn't reflect its actual stats. If some weapon mechanics pro could tell me how this works that would be great, considering it's my favorite weapon to use by far.

[QUOTE=Toastradamus;41508178]I was really hoping the last update would have a "Move Those Classes Up" post about tweaking some of the more fundamental class functionality, with the highlight on the Pyro's flamethrower. Clearly my hopes were too high. What problems exactly do people have with the flamethrowers as they work currently? Range, kill speed, randomness, skill ceiling, ambush potential (or general versatility)? Do people want to try to preserve or get rid of the pseudo-aoe functionality of afterburn? I've always been partial to the idea of a hitscan cone loosely based on a Quake-style lightning gun but trading range for a wider beam. The idea is to increase flamethrower effective range from close to medium while removing some of the randomness of the current particle system. I remember the lightning gun being fairly balanced and well-liked so it seemed like a good base to start from. You can tweak the width of the cone to adjust skill ceiling. Probably retain penetration (anything in the cone gets hit) for theme, although it can be sacrificed for balance. Increase the range over the current flamethrower based on what effective range you want the weapon to have. Perhaps add a quick damage ramp-up? Something like: damage per tick increases proportionally with fire damage done to the target in the last x seconds, with max damage reached in y seconds-worth of steady burn or something (mechanically, think of how crit chance works currently). I'd guess allowing any fire damage to work towards the ramp-up would be bad (incentivizing multiple pyros instead of each being self-contained seems like a balance headache) but perhaps your own flares should count. Or perhaps the whole ramp-up idea is unnecessary. It just seemed like a good lever for tweaking strength that fit thematically with being in a fire. Pyros too good/bad at ambushing? Lengthen/shorten ramp-up time. Kill speed too high/low? Tweak ramp-up time and bottom/top-end damage. Afterburn lowers the skill floor and increases utility, but complicates the rest of the balancing. Worth it? Also, I don't think any of this is originally my idea. Probably just things I've seen somewhere or other over the years and liked the sound of. Sorry if I'm swiping your idea.[/QUOTE] The problems with the flamethrower are explained better than I can here by BlueWarrior [url]http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3153630[/url]

[QUOTE=DalekGhostler;41505554]I always thought the detonator was stupid, so what did I decide to do? Think of my own stats for it of course![QUOTE=DalekGhostler;41505554] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/d/d1/Detonator_RED.png/250px-Detonator_RED.png?t=20111123021656[/IMG] What detonator need it's the TF2 beta jumps back. In the modern TF2, all classes have situational unlocks, witch make some classes step into other classes territory, like for example. ability to self heal or other teamates (Medic territory): Scout (Mad Milk and aguably Shortstop) Soldier (Black Box, Concheror, Half-Zatoichi) Pyro (Powerjack, Phlogistinator and aguably Back Scrather) Demoman (Half-Zatoichi and aguably Eyelander) Heavy (almost every secundary sloth unlock) Engy (Dispenser) Medic (Blutsauger, all secundary and Amputator) Sniper (Cozy Camper) Spy (Kunai) Ability to set on fire (Pyro territory) Soldier (Cow Mangler Alt fire) Heavy (Huo-Long fire ring) Sniper (Huntsman with the sources of fire being (Bison Soldier / Pomson Engy / Any Pyro Flamer / Medieval Torches) Ability to have superior movement (Scout and aguably Soldier and Demo) Scout (Crit-a-cola, Baby Face Blaster, Boston Basher, Winger, Atomizer, FaN and aguably Shortstop) Soldier (Concheror, Gunboats, Diciplinary Action, Scape Plan and aguably Rocket Jumper and Begar's Bazooka) Pyro (only 3 weapons, with Powerjack, Detonator and it's very expensive low jumps, and Scorch Shot, if, it's jumping ability can be taken into seriouly) Demoman (Shield charges, Eyelander buffs and sticky jumper) Heavy (GRU and Buffalo Steak) Engy (wrangler and sentry jumps maybe) Medic (Overdose speed buff and Quick-Fix special movement features) Well, I think that Detonator should be kept in the same matter, but with it's old TF2 Beta jumping capabilities. Some items have misplaced buffs like Powerjack having speed boost and healing abilities at the cost of being super dangerous to be used, in the past, I used it primary to "feed from light classes" so I could kept healed all the time, now, it's a mess, because it's a "rollout tool" so dangerous to be drawn in combat, that actualy can get you killed, so nobody probably will use it's healing feature. [editline]18th July 2013[/editline] [IMG]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9pcroYOdZ1r9do10o1_500.jpg[/IMG] Level 100 Gas Jockey Rebirth [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png?t=20110419094531[/IMG]Gives 15% permanent Speed boost. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png?t=20110419094531[/IMG]Gives 33% faster weapon switch. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png?t=20110419094531[/IMG]25% less airblast time gap. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png?t=20110419092839[/IMG]+10% bullet damage vulnerability on wearer. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png?t=20110419092839[/IMG]Deals 15% less damage. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png?t=20110419092839[/IMG]Mini-crits where it would normally Crit for all weapon sloths. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png?t=20110419092839[/IMG]Reflected projectiles are not mini-crit boosted. I sugest removing the new messed stats from the powerjack and make a new primary for pyro where we could have at least partialy, the old gas jockey set in a form of weapon, since melees like axtinguisher could be used, Mini-crits where it would normally Crit for all weapon sloths, protect from damage burst abuse, and other melees like Back Scrather become more desired, like detonator instead of flare gun, for even more mobility, other than that is almost the old same gas jockey set.

[QUOTE=lastshark;41466058]I didn't like how they got rid of the extra rocket laser thing in it was the only reason I used because it was really good for jumping because you could still have the 4 shots, but now it is just worse than the stock because the charge isn't that good and I can't fight buildings[/QUOTE] The Charge Shot can be used to disable buildings, but that's only useful with strong communication.

[B]Reserve Shooter[/B] [I]Now mini-crits during explosive jumping as well[/I] Soldiers don't really get much use of the RS ironically, since it's their shotgun, so I thought I'd suggest this.

snip

Take the +1 hp per second from the medic set and give it to the bonesaw. Bonesaw buffed and worth using.

How they should have fixed the danger shield: +26 health. Survive quickscopes, stomp snipers.

[QUOTE=xNickston;41518736]How they should have fixed the danger shield: +26 health. Survive quickscopes, stomp snipers.[/QUOTE] But with the current way you also survive "quickscopes". And the Danger Shield is more viable in the open when using the Huntsman. I stood more chances against Heavies when I used it earlier today. The way they did it is fine.

[QUOTE=DatWut?;41518760]But with the current way you also survive "quickscopes". And the Danger Shield is more viable in the open when using the Huntsman. I stood more chances against Heavies when I used it earlier today. The way they did it is fine.[/QUOTE] The way they did it was stupid, the explosive weakness changes nothing due to the +25 and being able to survive quickscopes but still dish them out totally fucks up Sniper vs Sniper They should have done what they did for Spy, get rid of the effect entirely and come up with some new attribute to put on the Sleeper or Shield as compensation [editline]19th July 2013[/editline] Pretty big blight on an otherwise good update IMO, don't know what they were thinking

The shield needs a more supportive use, the use of the Sleeper in the set is to debuff, the Bushwacka has its use with the Jarate shots, the shield is just a generic buff/debuff item. It needs to be made more tied in with the set while still keeping a use outside of it.

[QUOTE=Shadoxa;41520846]The shield needs a more supportive use, the use of the Sleeper in the set is to debuff, the Bushwacka has its use with the Jarate shots, the shield is just a generic buff/debuff item. It needs to be made more tied in with the set while still keeping a use outside of it.[/QUOTE] No item should be explicitly designed to be utilized in a set. Otherwise we get shit like the Cladflksfdjlsdkfjdf Mor which is only useful with shields. Like it or hate it, passive items are there to augment the player's other slots. The Gunboats augment well with the rocketlaunchers, enabling greater mobility. The Razorback and Cozy Camper augment the sniper's rifles by giving him peace of mind while he's trying to focus on his job, the Danger Shield, even pre-buff, did that as well by allowing him to not die.