The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

[QUOTE=OceanGovernor;41619358]I also think pyro is in a bad place but for very different reasons. Pyro right now has the lowest skill ceiling next to engineer, primarily due to his terribly weak primary. It is easy to apply some afterburn with but hard to kill anything with the fall-off and particles. Sadly afterburn has so many counters, including the pyro itself, that it is largely inconsequential except as a set up for a crit or mini-crit, only available through unlocks however. In addition airblast itself has no skill indexing at all, its just hit button to stop ubers, hardly helping the pyro's ceiling. Valve needs to look at this primary and increase its effectiveness ,make it a threat so it isn't matched in dps by the syringe gun, while also adding in the ability for skill that weapons such as the rocket launcher or grenade launcher provide. Make him the combat class he was meant to be and get rid of unlock band-aids like the powerjack.[/QUOTE] Okay, and how do you plan to make flamethrower a good weapon to play against. That is something I'd love to know.

[QUOTE=Drury;41623395]Okay, and how do you plan to make flamethrower a good weapon to play against. That is something I'd love to know.[/QUOTE] I have a few ideas 1.Remove ability to extinguish afterburn with airblast 2.Reduce push force on players when airblasting 3. increase airblast push on stickies or change team on airblast like other projectiles and set them on a timer to detonate 4.Increase damage per particle to 8 5.Increase damage falloff to encourage higher damage when closer to enemies but low damage at the edges, similar to a scattergun

[QUOTE=OceanGovernor;41625588]I have a few ideas 1.Remove ability to extinguish afterburn with airblast 2.Reduce push force on players when airblasting 3. increase airblast push on stickies or change team on airblast like other projectiles and set them on a timer to detonate 4.Increase damage per particle to 8 5.Increase damage falloff to encourage higher damage when closer to enemies but low damage at the edges, similar to a scattergun[/QUOTE] 1. Makes Pyro a "noob class" again. It'd take one of the Pyros key abilities which makes the experienced players distinguishable from the new ones. Also: "Strange Part: Allies Extinguished". You'd fuck those over who applied it to their weapons. 2. Why? I can only see it change for the worse when Degreaser+Axtinguisher Pyros use it. 3. I kind of agree with that. 4. The damage is fine as it is on the stock. And if you increased the stock's damage, the Degreaser would end updeling more damage also, unless the percentage of damage the Degreaser deals would be increased. 5. Can't really judge on that, no idea why.

It's funny. Because afterburn has become increasingly less and less threatening, the afterburn downside on the Degreaser is becoming less and less of a downside. It's like Valve wants it to vastly outdo the other Pyro primaries.

[QUOTE=OceanGovernor;41625588]I have a few ideas 1.Remove ability to extinguish afterburn with airblast 2.Reduce push force on players when airblasting 3. increase airblast push on stickies or change team on airblast like other projectiles and set them on a timer to detonate 4.Increase damage per particle to 8 5.Increase damage falloff to encourage higher damage when closer to enemies but low damage at the edges, similar to a scattergun[/QUOTE] I feel like afterburn also needs to be redone in the opposite direction. It's not really [i]that[/i] easy to put out, much less than getting re-lit. One thing that really sucks about afterburn is that you are guaranteed to get lit when you fight a pyro, no matter how careful you are. I'd be okay with less things extinguishing afterburn and it being stronger overall IF it weren't so cheap. A spycicle-ish fire immunity for like, half a second on all targets, or only getting lit when getting hit spontaneously by x fire particles. This way you wouldn't get lit by a random fire particle by a W+M1 pyro, only if it gets really hot around you. Also, it'd nerf those puff'n'sting tards hard. They'd have to BBQ people for a short time in order to light them on fire, giving them a chance to fight back.

[QUOTE=DatWut?;41625731]1. Makes Pyro a "noob class" again. It'd take one of the Pyros key abilities which makes the experienced players distinguishable from the new ones. Also: "Strange Part: Allies Extinguished". You'd fuck those over who applied it to their weapons. 2. Why? I can only see it change for the worse when Degreaser+Axtinguisher Pyros use it. 3. I kind of agree with that. 4. The damage is fine as it is on the stock. And if you increased the stock's damage, the Degreaser would end updeling more damage also, unless the percentage of damage the Degreaser deals would be increased. 5. Can't really judge on that, no idea why.[/QUOTE] 1.Afterburn will never be useful for anything outside of set-up if pyro is his own greatest counter 2.Primarily because of ubers, right now any pyro can stall ubers with little to no skill, even a few seconds can ruin an uber that took minutes of work to build. 4/5 Damage right now is on par with syringe gun, if you stand with your flamethrower up the butt of an opponent. Increasing damage and increasing falloff results in a weapon that melts up close but farther away deals small damage at most, useful for only applying afterburn.

[QUOTE=Bynine;41625842]It's funny. Because afterburn has become increasingly less and less threatening, the afterburn downside on the Degreaser is becoming less and less of a downside. It's like Valve wants it to vastly outdo the other Pyro primaries.[/QUOTE] It's not an entirely uncommon theory that Valve has used unlocks to "band-aid fix" the problems Pyro has

[QUOTE=Drury;41615965]I've never said I hate on 6v6. I just voiced my opinion about that argument which keeps coming up a lot lately and is absolutely absurd. Also, whether intentionally or not, you sound extremely elitist. You see, some people play on pubs not because they're not good enough to play competitively, but because they don't want to for whatever reason. You have high skill pubs too, you see, where skilled people play instead of lobbies (again for whatever reasons)(*cough*tryhard dicks*cough*). So for your information, pub games still have their rules, they're not dumpholes where rats randomly throw shits at each other, and pyros are extremely unpleasant to play against there, much like everything that's effective at dealing large amounts of damage at whatever range and whatever pace without needing much skill to use (a description fitting most of the "bad" or "overpowered" weapons). A vast majority of TF2 playerbase plays there, so it would make sense for Valve to pay attention to those people, in order to keep most of their customers happy, not just a small elite class.[/QUOTE] he didn't even say that you're just be insecure as fuck over nothing [editline]28th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=OceanGovernor;41625588]I have a few ideas 1.Remove ability to extinguish afterburn with airblast 2.Reduce push force on players when airblasting 3. increase airblast push on stickies or change team on airblast like other projectiles and set them on a timer to detonate 4.Increase damage per particle to 8 [B]5.Increase damage falloff to encourage higher damage when closer to enemies but low damage at the edges, similar to a scattergun[/B][/QUOTE] this is exactly how the Tank class in Monday Night Combat and Super MNC works, it works well

Sometimes i think the old airblast jump idea isnt that bad and could improve pyro as a class.

So yeah Liberty Launcher -25% damage +40% more rocket push force Good?

[QUOTE=C4rnage;41635595]Sometimes i think the old airblast jump idea isnt that bad and could improve pyro as a class.[/QUOTE] What flamethrowers do you think would get the most out of a built-in advanced mobility system? Phlog and Backburner? and what flamethrowers would have the least amount of airblast jumps? Phlog and Backburner?

Hey don't dis the backburner. It's CAN airblast.

The backburner is now a decent sidegrade. Damn shame the standard for the slot is slighty underpowered AND it has a straight upgrade. And somewhat still attracks the ire of people who can't take being ambushed, where it kills as fast as a scout or a bunch of stickies...

[QUOTE=R.M.T.B.;41635656]So yeah Liberty Launcher -25% damage +40% more rocket push force Good?[/QUOTE] Asking people to voice their opinions

[QUOTE=R.M.T.B.;41639950]Asking people to voice their opinions[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=TectoImprov;41616756]I feel like they got it half right with the Liberty Launcher with the latest patch, just give his rockets for push force and you have a rocket launcher that can send enemies flying so you can attack with the Reserve Shooter, and you have rockets that deal less damage to yourself when rocket jumping when going for a Market Gardener kill.[/QUOTE] :v:

maybe instead of airblast you could flame jump like the old tf? but then give the degreaser a stat making it unable to use it.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41639922]The backburner is now a decent sidegrade. Damn shame the standard for the slot is slighty underpowered AND it has a straight upgrade. And somewhat still attracks the ire of people who can't take being ambushed, where it kills as fast as a scout or a bunch of stickies...[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Eriorguez;41639922]straight upgrade[/QUOTE] :(

Well, tell me how the Degreaser's downside hinders its usage as the vanilla Flamethrower plus something more, then?

A 10% damage penalty is nothing. You're hardly going to not get any kills you would get with the regular Flamethrower. I wouldn't mind a bigger damage penalty on the thing so that it had an actual, noticeable downside...

I will say it again, it needs an on-wearer penalty.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41641027]I will say it again, it needs an on-wearer penalty.[/QUOTE] Lower movespeed? Lower max health? Increased fire/explosive/bullet vulnerability? A +50% explosive vulnerability on-wearer would be really interesting. Airblast perfectly or die a horrible death.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41641027]I will say it again, it needs an on-wearer penalty.[/QUOTE] What if Degreaser wielders get a penalty of all their crits dealing only double damage rather than triple?

I still think it was it, and not the powerjack, the one that should have the damage vulnerability (no random crits was a neat penalty, but the GOTTAGOFAST 195 crits that heal you are oh so worth dying to many things). A 20% damage vulnerability for the degreaser, so you die to quickscopes MAY work. But, again, synergy with the Powerjack would be my priority for it, as well as focusing on it not being overpowered with the Axtinguisher, which is a perfectly fine weapon with other primaries, or the Flare Gun, which is one of the better examples of sidegrade in the game.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41640446]Well, tell me how the Degreaser's downside hinders its usage as the vanilla Flamethrower plus something more, then?[/QUOTE] With the way particles work it is about 17% less effective against enemies with direct flaming, numbers round up on each particle. However with afterburn being such a neutered effect that downside is not really a downside. Degreaser is Valve's band-aid for the pyro, most notably pre-pyromania when there was no damage penalty and up to the set bonus removal update when degreaser could also give you the 10% speed buff.

Degreaser 65% faster weapon switch No afterburn

Why not make Pyro worth playing without the Degreaser before we go nerfing it? Seriously, stock pyro is terrible compared to stock scout, stock soldier etc.

Lads, we here at the Weapon Fixing Megathread need to stop beating around the bush and fix the stock Flamethrower (and perhaps the Fire Ax, but that's less important.) We've been talking about it far too long without reaching any conclusive answers. First, we need to[B] identify the problem.[/B] Next, we need to [B]suggest solutions to the problem.[/B] Finally, we need to [B]decide the best solution.[/B] I'm all ears.

The flamethrower needs to be reworked at a fundamental level to make it more skill-based For starters, having a perfect damage cone like the phlog has so where you aim is where damage is actually done could do wonders for him in the long run. As someone suggested before, the flamethrower could be tweaked to work like the Tank's jet gun in (S)MNC. Along with a damage buff, this tweaked flamethrower would better encourage getting close to multiple enemies, as you now have an effective way to deal better with groups of people, but the very quick damage fall-off and smaller damage cone means that you can easily be picked off as soon as an effort is made to kill you. The degreaser after this could stay largely as it is right now, fire mechanics and all, but have a massive damage nerf to it to make it pale in comparison to the new flamethrower's direct damage. These changes would work to better make stock pyro a viable and skill based class, while allowing the degreaser to still maintain it's status as the king of combos. The big pull away from the degreaser now being the attractiveness of high DPS to multiple targets, as opposed to having to single out a single target to combo upon. If the combo mechanic still proves to be too strong, perhaps give the degreaser a marginally shorter afterburn duration, so if you aren't quick enough to act, your flames go out and you're just standing there looking like an idiot. The phlog and backburner could stay largely the same, but with the backburner having the same flame mechanic changes as the stock flamethrower. The crit angle on the backburner could also expanded, as right now it seems too insignificant of an angle for its crits to be reliable. The one other primary weapon issue with pyro I want to address is the airblast. The only thing that needs to be changed about this is to make it work more like the splash from explosions. It needs to be surfable and not stall all movement unless the person airblasted is running directly at the pyro. This would mean pyros have to be aware of their surroundings if they want to set someone up for a combo, as the opponent can otherwise escape easily by riding the airblast away. This change also has the benefit of making degreaser and its combos less reliable, and drawing people to the other flamethrowers. I've tried not to suggest making any big changes to weapons, but several small changes to make pyro more skill-based and viable, making the same results as pre-rework possible with skill and execution. Opinions?

[QUOTE=wari65;41643603]The flamethrower needs to be reworked at a fundamental level to make it more skill-based For starters, having a perfect damage cone like the phlog has so where you aim is where damage is actually done could do wonders for him in the long run. As someone suggested before, the flamethrower could be tweaked to work like the Tank's jet gun in (S)MNC. Along with a damage buff, this tweaked flamethrower would better encourage getting close to multiple enemies, as you now have an effective way to deal better with groups of people, but the very quick damage fall-off and smaller damage cone means that you can easily be picked off as soon as an effort is made to kill you. The degreaser after this could stay largely as it is right now, fire mechanics and all, but have a massive damage nerf to it to make it pale in comparison to the new flamethrower's direct damage. These changes would work to better make stock pyro a viable and skill based class, while allowing the degreaser to still maintain it's status as the king of combos. The big pull away from the degreaser now being the attractiveness of high DPS to multiple targets, as opposed to having to single out a single target to combo upon. If the combo mechanic still proves to be too strong, perhaps give the degreaser a marginally shorter afterburn duration, so if you aren't quick enough to act, your flames go out and you're just standing there looking like an idiot. The phlog and backburner could stay largely the same, but with the backburner having the same flame mechanic changes as the stock flamethrower. The crit angle on the backburner could also expanded, as right now it seems too insignificant of an angle for its crits to be reliable. The one other primary weapon issue with pyro I want to address is the airblast. The only thing that needs to be changed about this is to make it work more like the splash from explosions. It needs to be surfable and not stall all movement unless the person airblasted is running directly at the pyro. This would mean pyros have to be aware of their surroundings if they want to set someone up for a combo, as the opponent can otherwise escape easily by riding the airblast away. This change also has the benefit of making degreaser and its combos less reliable, and drawing people to the other flamethrowers. I've tried not to suggest making any big changes to weapons, but several small changes to make pyro more skill-based and viable, making the same results as pre-rework possible with skill and execution. Opinions?[/QUOTE] You I like you

[QUOTE=PSI Guy;41643137]Why not make Pyro worth playing without the Degreaser before we go nerfing it? Seriously, stock pyro is terrible compared to stock scout, stock soldier etc.[/QUOTE] I have to say I do think Axtinguisher needs some nerf, atleast...