The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

[QUOTE=Frank Jaeger;41643089]Degreaser 65% faster weapon switch No afterburn[/QUOTE] then its gimmick is useless, as they won't be on fire when you switch to the reserve or the axeting [editline]30th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=ClauAmericano;41648047]I have to say I do think Axtinguisher needs some nerf, atleast...[/QUOTE] Axtinguisher is perfectly fine. It's degreaser that's rather overpowered.

[QUOTE=Suttles;41648069]Axtinguisher is perfectly fine. It's degreaser that's rather overpowered.[/QUOTE] You might be right there, but I always found the Axtinguisher to be, in my opinion, the cheapest of all weapons in the game. One hit on a flaming enemy and instant death unless he is one with high hp like Heavy. It´s like the Market Gardener but on the ground, I always hated it.

Well, lets talk about it without mentioning the degreaser. Ok. He lights you on fire, and runs at you. As he runs at you he switches weapons, being vulnerable. As he runs at you, he has no air blast or anything, and hes running point blank into you. If your reflexes aren't dead, you can just kill him easily with nearly any class. Another one He lights you on fire, air blast you, and swaps. He still has to wait to swap weapons, so hes still vulnerable. Only difference is you are either against a wall sliding down to your doom, or floating backwards away from him. You can probably fight back while hes running at you without his flamethrower out. He has no airblast. Only problem is if you are against the wall, I'd recommend watching your position around any pyro. Degreaser...degreaser completely changes this. He barely has any time without his axe or flamethrower out, allowing him to wreck your shit as he pleases.

Yeah you got a good point there. I just feel like that if the Degreaser gets a change insteed of the Axtinguisher, it will lose it´s unique ability to be quicker then the other flamethrowers. But again, you do make a good point.

[QUOTE=wari65;41643603]The flamethrower needs to be reworked at a fundamental level to make it more skill-based For starters, having a perfect damage cone like the phlog has so where you aim is where damage is actually done could do wonders for him in the long run. As someone suggested before, the flamethrower could be tweaked to work like the Tank's jet gun in (S)MNC. Along with a damage buff, this tweaked flamethrower would better encourage getting close to multiple enemies, as you now have an effective way to deal better with groups of people, but the very quick damage fall-off and smaller damage cone means that you can easily be picked off as soon as an effort is made to kill you. The degreaser after this could stay largely as it is right now, fire mechanics and all, but have a massive damage nerf to it to make it pale in comparison to the new flamethrower's direct damage. These changes would work to better make stock pyro a viable and skill based class, while allowing the degreaser to still maintain it's status as the king of combos. The big pull away from the degreaser now being the attractiveness of high DPS to multiple targets, as opposed to having to single out a single target to combo upon. If the combo mechanic still proves to be too strong, perhaps give the degreaser a marginally shorter afterburn duration, so if you aren't quick enough to act, your flames go out and you're just standing there looking like an idiot. The phlog and backburner could stay largely the same, but with the backburner having the same flame mechanic changes as the stock flamethrower. The crit angle on the backburner could also expanded, as right now it seems too insignificant of an angle for its crits to be reliable. The one other primary weapon issue with pyro I want to address is the airblast. The only thing that needs to be changed about this is to make it work more like the splash from explosions. It needs to be surfable and not stall all movement unless the person airblasted is running directly at the pyro. This would mean pyros have to be aware of their surroundings if they want to set someone up for a combo, as the opponent can otherwise escape easily by riding the airblast away. This change also has the benefit of making degreaser and its combos less reliable, and drawing people to the other flamethrowers. I've tried not to suggest making any big changes to weapons, but several small changes to make pyro more skill-based and viable, making the same results as pre-rework possible with skill and execution. Opinions?[/QUOTE] I largely agree with these ideas, the unreliability of particles is a problem that the cone would work with. With the damage and fire mechanics tweaked I dont think a massive damage nerf will be needed, but 20% would be enough. I also would decrease airblast by 10% rather than increase the backburner, I just dont find the crits unreliable.

This is a massive shot in the dark, but... [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] [B]Flame particles linger for 0.3 seconds[/B] This might increase skill indexing by adding an element of predicting enemy movement and moving/aiming to maximize the amount of exposure, like with the Righteous Bison and Syringe Gun. I imagine that both dodging and dealing damage this way would feel intuitive pretty quickly. Of course, it might also just make the flamethrower's damage feel arbitrary and weird.

[QUOTE=ClauAmericano;41648187]Yeah you got a good point there. I just feel like that if the Degreaser gets a change insteed of the Axtinguisher, it will lose it´s unique ability to be quicker then the other flamethrowers. But again, you do make a good point.[/QUOTE] to make the degreaser balanced without changing it, you'd need to completely rework axetinguisher, all secondary weapons, ect It's too much of an upside for basically no downside.

Since we're on the topic of Degreaser+Axtinguisher again, I bring up my old suggestion again that would nerf the combo without changing the weapons at all outside of that combo: Axtinguisher is unaffected by weapon switch changing stats.

[QUOTE=DatWut?;41648466]Since we're on the topic of Degreaser+Axtinguisher again, I bring up my old suggestion again that would nerf the combo without changing the weapons at all outside of that combo: Axtinguisher is unaffected by weapon switch changing stats.[/QUOTE] That would solve degreaser + axtinguisher for good And I suggest this for the bushwacka (Same Stats) -No random crits

[QUOTE=R.M.T.B.;41648504]That would solve degreaser + axtinguisher for good And I suggest this for the bushwacka (Same Stats) -No random crits[/QUOTE] i get a crit every bushwacka hit, and if i dont...they already pissed themselves making it much easier

[QUOTE=Suttles;41648720]i get a crit every bushwacka hit, and if i dont...they already pissed themselves making it much easier[/QUOTE] Well once everyone here agrees on stats we can send it to valve in a email

[QUOTE=DatWut?;41648466]Since we're on the topic of Degreaser+Axtinguisher again, I bring up my old suggestion again that would nerf the combo without changing the weapons at all outside of that combo: Axtinguisher is unaffected by weapon switch changing stats.[/QUOTE] There is no problem with the combo though, pyro still has to get into melee range to do so. A range where he is destroyed by any combat class.

[QUOTE=Suttles;41648069]Axtinguisher is perfectly fine. It's degreaser that's rather overpowered.[/QUOTE] Axtinguisher isn't fine as long as a major downside of any other pyro melee is "not an axtinguisher"

[QUOTE=Drury;41650594]Axtinguisher isn't fine as long as a major downside of any other pyro melee is "not an axtinguisher"[/QUOTE] Personally, I prefer the powerjack, that speed boost and overheal on kill is so satisfying, otherwise I use the third degree.

I also prefer not to use OP items. But equip rates are equip rates.

The Degreaser is only OP because of the Axtinguisher, and the Axtinguisher is only OP because of the Degreaser. It seems like adding "Not effected by increased weapon switch time" on the Axtinguisher would only hurt the combo and nothing else. I don't see why people think it's a bad idea.

I believe both weapons are OP, axtinguisher isn't going to become any less viable when degreaser gets nerfed.

[QUOTE=Drury;41651045]I believe both weapons are OP, axtinguisher isn't going to become any less viable when degreaser gets nerfed.[/QUOTE] It's just... the downside of the Axetinguisher is completely negligible unless you're fighting another Pyro. You're supposed to be setting everything on fire within range anyway (unless a quick shot from your shotgun is enough), so why would you even have to worry about the 50% less base damage and no random crits?

what if the axestinguisher did only double damage and then unlit the opponent? that way you would have to ensue you'd done at least a reasonable amount of damage before the final blow, or you'd have to deal with a weakened but still alive and angry player.

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;41651005]The Degreaser is only OP because of the Axtinguisher, and the Axtinguisher is only OP because of the Degreaser. It seems like adding "Not effected by increased weapon switch time" on the Axtinguisher would only hurt the combo and nothing else. I don't see why people think it's a bad idea.[/QUOTE] I don't like the idea because it's a balance change that applies to one weapon and it's only to counteract just the Degreaser. It just seems like such an adhesive strip fix but something like it needs to happen.

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;41651849]I don't like the idea because it's a balance change that applies to one weapon and it's only to counteract just the Degreaser. It just seems like such an adhesive strip fix but something like it needs to happen.[/QUOTE] 'Here, have these two weapons that are designed pretty much solely to synergize with each other. Wait, they synergize with each other? Shit! Let's add a stat so eliminate that synergy!' I still personally don't find puff-n-sting overpowered. I definitely die to it more often than I die to regular flamethrower or afterburn damage, but less often than I die to, say, stickyspam. I'm inclined to believe the Pyro in general is UP and puff-n-sting is balanced. Still, the majority seems to find the tactic overpowered, so let's assume that's the case. I think one important thing to decide here is whether it's just the Axtinguisher-Degreaser combo that's overpowered, or whether the weapon is overpowered when used with the Flare Gun and Reserve Shooter as well. If it's the latter, it seems like a simple case of the weapon being too good at what it's doing, which from what I can see could be fixed in one of two ways. - Lowering the percentage on the switch speed buff, making the weapon weaker and blander. - Adding a new downside unrelated to damage output; The damage penalties encourage Degreaser users to stick to crit combos but doesn't affect them as long as they do. Something like a health penalty would 'compensate' for the added utility. Though, again, I'd prefer it if the other flamethrowers got buffed so that giving up regular burn damage for faster crit combos would be a fair tradeoff. I think wari65's idea of designing the other flamethrowers around damaging multiple people is a great one.

[QUOTE=Deodorant;41652166]'Here, have these two weapons that are designed pretty much solely to synergize with each other. Wait, they synergize with each other? Shit! Let's add a stat so eliminate that synergy!' I still personally don't find puff-n-sting overpowered. I definitely die to it more often than I die to regular flamethrower or afterburn damage, but less often than I die to, say, stickyspam. I'm inclined to believe the Pyro in general is UP and puff-n-sting is balanced. Still, the majority seems to find the tactic overpowered, so let's assume that's the case. I think one important thing to decide here is whether it's just the Axtinguisher-Degreaser combo that's overpowered, or whether the weapon is overpowered when used with the Flare Gun and Reserve Shooter as well. If it's the latter, it seems like a simple case of the weapon being too good at what it's doing, which from what I can see could be fixed in one of two ways. - Lowering the percentage on the switch speed buff, making the weapon weaker and blander. - Adding a new downside unrelated to damage output; The damage penalties encourage Degreaser users to stick to crit combos but doesn't affect them as long as they do. Something like a health penalty would 'compensate' for the added utility. Though, again, I'd prefer it if the other flamethrowers got buffed so that giving up regular burn damage for faster crit combos would be a fair tradeoff. I think wari65's idea of designing the other flamethrowers around damaging multiple people is a great one.[/QUOTE] I'm sure they designed the Degreaser to synergize with the Powerjack which at the time had a 25% damage bonus. I believe the Axtinguisher synergy was a "happy accident." Regardless I do agree with you that they should buff the other flamethrowers instead of nerfing the Degreaser or something like that.

[sp]I'm sorry about this habit of writing loooong posts (this one is marginally longer than my flamethrower rant), but I feel it's the best way to explain these balance ideas in enough detail to be properly understood in the same way I'm trying to convey them[/sp] The problem with balancing melee weapons is that comparing them to the stock at all doesn't work. Look at the classes and what melee weapons they got first. Scout - Sandman Soldier - Equalizer (now split) Pyro - Axtinguisher Demo - Eyelander Heavy - KGB Engi - Gunslinger Medic - Ubersaw Sniper - Shiv Spy - YER Let's call the melee weapons that aren't the YER, gunslinger, eyelander, and shiv, utility unlocks. These utility unlocks had a large usefulness after they were added, and there was almost no reason not to use them. This is what Valve wanted, for melee weapons to not be a joke of a weapon slot. Valve hadn't anticipated how good some of these utility unlocks were, so as more melee weapons were added, these new unlocks quickly fell into the useless category. In the case of the equalizer, it was just way too good comparatively, so it was split. Again recently, the escape plan was deemed to good, and it was nerfed to better show the usefulness of the soldier's other melee weapons. The axtinguisher held its status until the homewrecker came around as the perfect sidegrade. The axtinguisher and homewrecker were more or less perfectly balanced in their utilities, with homewrecker being more focused on teamwork, while the axtinguisher allowed more of a lone-wolf role. The powerjack afterwards would be a bit less than balanced as a sidegrade to these. It also supported the lone-wolf role, and traded the OHK effect of the Axtinguisher for a slightly higher base damage along with a health bonus on kill. But it simply wasn't the axtinguisher. It wasn't as good at this lone-wolf role. The problem that we run into with the axtinguisher also comes around at this time in the TF2 life cycle, as the degreaser is now in the game along with the powerjack. The degreaser combo with the powerjack served to make the the combo more effective as a lone wolf than the axtinguisher alone. The powerjack itself could have been appropriately balanced to compete with the axtinguisher and homewrecker. The switch speed bonus however might have created a situation similar to the original equalizer. The weapon switch speed would prove FAR too useful of a utility than the killing or helping power of the axtinguisher or homewrecker respectively. An approriate way to balance this might have been to only switch faster when switching to the powerjack. This would create the intended effect for the powerjack, while keeping its utility with other weapons non-existant. This would have been a best case scenario for balancing the pyros weapons among themselves. However throughout all this, pyro is still very weak in his combat ability compared to other classes. To alleviate this, Valve decided to take a risk and make the degreaser a utility unlock for the flamethrower. They succeeded, and there is largely no reason not to run the degreaser compared to the stock flamethrower. The situation here is that the flamethrower is a primary weapon, so making a utility unlock for it makes pyro itself stronger as a class. Now I don't know if Valve considered the degreaser + powerjack better than the degreaser + axtinguisher in their theorycrafting or playtesting that they may or may not have done, but the point stands that the axtinguisher is sooooooooo much better than the powerjack at working with the degreaser. So then we have to answer the question which has no precedent compared to the other melee weapons the pyro has in the larger spectrum of inter-class balance compared to the pyro itself's balance among weapons: Is the degreaser + axtinguisher combo OP, or just not fun to play against?(see: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g[/url] ) Due to pyro's still weak nature in competitive play, I think I can say with certainty that it's the former. The degreaser + axtinguisher falls into the same category as pre-nerf sandman and pre-nerf natascha. The weapons themselves are not inherently OP. They are simply not fun to play against. The combo itself is perfectly balanced to compete with other classes in terms of firepower. It sounds good on paper. But it's not fun to play against. There's also another point I want to make, connecting back to the original utility unlocks. The utility unlocks for every other class did not exist to make melee weapons stronger. They provided a use that made the primary and secondary weapons of a class stronger in exchange for swapping to the melee weapon or a short amount of time. The axtinguisher at this point has flipped this entire idea on its head. The degreaser is now the utility unlock that makes the axtinguisher stronger. One thing that needs to happen to balance pyro as a class is to sort out his weapons as balanced with eachother, rather than his relation to other classes. The pyro has not followed the same unlock model that fits with every other class. As time has shown, this has led to the pyro being the absolute weakest class, needing band-aids to fix this problem instead of majorly overhauling pyro itself. Without making the pyro OP, Valve has tried to band-aid him as much as possible throughout the years to raise him to the status of the other classes, which created a frankenstein's monster of a class which does not have its priorities for balance in order. At this point, I doubt Valve would be willing to consider a major reworking of the flamethrowers like I previously stated, along along with major stat changes for melee unlocks in order to conform the pyro to the model of other 8/9 classes have of "melee weapons being utility unlocks to aid the usefulness of the primary and secondary weapons." So unless a major rework is in the works, it's useless to suggest any changes to the axtinguisher or degreaser. Doing so will only hurt the pyro as a class due the crutch that these weapons serve in order to keep the class on the same level as the others. [sp]I want to go on about how this same utility unlocks concept has affected the equalizer/escape plan, but that's for another post, as this one is already way too long[/sp]

[QUOTE=wari65;41652477]snip[/QUOTE] Personally I think once flamethrower is reworked into a weapon that kills people, axt complaints will fall as people realize the pyro can kill with his primary and not just his secondary and melee. Axt is just the damage the pyro needs in the wrong package.

It's pretty funny that you mentioned the Degreaser/Axtinguisher being just like Natascha and the Sandman, wari65, because the reason nobody likes them is because they all focus on restricting the enemy's movement and then beating them to death while they're unable to respond. Being unable to have any control in the situation you're in is frustrating and dull and doesn't make for good gameplay. That's the main reason the combo is given such contempt. The person that suggested we change airblast's effects on enemy players to maintain the enemy's speed has a great idea. Also, another little suggestion - how about certain afterburn-extinguishing techniques, like airblasts, Jarate, and Mad Milk, only carve five seconds out of the duration instead of immediately getting rid of it? Water would still be immediate, of course, but doing this might make afterburn a little scarier again...

[QUOTE=wari65;41643603]The flamethrower needs to be reworked at a fundamental level to make it more skill-based For starters, having a perfect damage cone like the phlog has so where you aim is where damage is actually done could do wonders for him in the long run. As someone suggested before, the flamethrower could be tweaked to work like the Tank's jet gun in (S)MNC. Along with a damage buff, this tweaked flamethrower would better encourage getting close to multiple enemies, as you now have an effective way to deal better with groups of people, but the very quick damage fall-off and smaller damage cone means that you can easily be picked off as soon as an effort is made to kill you. The degreaser after this could stay largely as it is right now, fire mechanics and all, but have a massive damage nerf to it to make it pale in comparison to the new flamethrower's direct damage. These changes would work to better make stock pyro a viable and skill based class, while allowing the degreaser to still maintain it's status as the king of combos. The big pull away from the degreaser now being the attractiveness of high DPS to multiple targets, as opposed to having to single out a single target to combo upon. If the combo mechanic still proves to be too strong, perhaps give the degreaser a marginally shorter afterburn duration, so if you aren't quick enough to act, your flames go out and you're just standing there looking like an idiot. The phlog and backburner could stay largely the same, but with the backburner having the same flame mechanic changes as the stock flamethrower. The crit angle on the backburner could also expanded, as right now it seems too insignificant of an angle for its crits to be reliable. The one other primary weapon issue with pyro I want to address is the airblast. The only thing that needs to be changed about this is to make it work more like the splash from explosions. It needs to be surfable and not stall all movement unless the person airblasted is running directly at the pyro. This would mean pyros have to be aware of their surroundings if they want to set someone up for a combo, as the opponent can otherwise escape easily by riding the airblast away. This change also has the benefit of making degreaser and its combos less reliable, and drawing people to the other flamethrowers. I've tried not to suggest making any big changes to weapons, but several small changes to make pyro more skill-based and viable, making the same results as pre-rework possible with skill and execution. Opinions?[/QUOTE] please make a thread about this on the balance section of SPUF [url]http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=545[/url] I think Valve actually sometimes checks this. prepare for some dissenters though so subscribe to said thread

please, dear god, never suggest situational nerfs for weapons it is literally the silliest thing that you could possibly do, because you're basically admitting that there's a problem but instead of fixing the problem you're just removing it I had to switch back to the Axtinguisher because Valve decided to murder the Powerjack (that's something else that we should get around to fixing), and honestly, I'm basically getting the same results that I used to get with the Deagreaser+Powerjack that I am with the Degreaser+Axtinguisher. The difference is that I don't get free health from Snipers anymore and I can somewhat more reliably kill Heavies. honestly, as it ahs been stated, the pyro as a whole needs to be fixed, you can't tinker with his unlocks and add random nerfs to the axtinguisher and degreaser and expect him to be fixed

and don't forget that the degreaser + axtinquisher combo is about the same length a Scout firing two point blank shots at you, which kill any class except Heavy, and no need to set them on fire, and you can then run away from anyone who notices what you just did Scout does all that damage with just his primary. And he can double jump. It's only because a puff and sting kill takes a bit longer that the victim is all panicking unlike a Scout or Heavy or Sniper headshot where you die before you know what is happening

I can't remember the last time I've been puff n sting'd. I usually get time to see them coming and act accordingly.

[QUOTE=The Baconator;41657506]and don't forget that the degreaser + axtinquisher combo is about the same length a Scout firing two point blank shots at you, which kill any class except Heavy, and no need to set them on fire, and you can then run away from anyone who notices what you just did Scout does all that damage with just his primary. And he can double jump. It's only because a puff and sting kill takes a bit longer that the victim is all panicking unlike a Scout or Heavy or Sniper headshot where you die before you know what is happening[/QUOTE] it takes more experience/skill to meatshot two consecutive shots than it does to set someone alight, airblast them so their movement is predictable/non-existent, and then hit them.