The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

[QUOTE=NeoDement;41668822]I really think the flaregun balance made a lot more sense when it did minicrits/crits based on distance, I don't really get why they changed it do to do full crits all the time[/QUOTE] Changing it back to that would also encourage people to use the Flare Gun like intended.

[QUOTE=NeoDement;41668822]I really think the flaregun balance made a lot more sense when it did minicrits/crits based on distance, I don't really get why they changed it do to do full crits all the time[/QUOTE] You exchange any combination of fire + flare or flare + flare, by using a projectile weapon, with an arched trajectory, and some time for doing it so since it's fire rate is pretty low, for a 90 dmg perfect shotgun point blank shot witch you can do for 6 times in a 0.625 s attack interval, but it would require to be upclose, also a perfect medium range shot would be arround 30, witch let me think that Flare Gun is one of the most perfect side grades ever, don't complain about it since an upclose a rocket does 100+ and a soldier use one of this rockets to close tha gap between you and him to insta-kill your bootie. Shotgun also have the benefict of that you can land a perfect shot, an good shot, but missing all the damage is very hard to happen, with the flare gun is: maximum damage, or complete miss, and you still can dodge the flares.

[QUOTE=ScarfaceCrow;41668911]You exchange any combination of fire + flare or flare + flare, by using a projectile weapon, with an arched trajectory, and some time for doing it so since it's fire rate is pretty low, for a 90 dmg perfect shotgun point blank shot witch you can do for 6 times in a 0.625 s attack interval, but it would require to be upclose, also a perfect medium range shot would be arround 30, witch let me think that Flare Gun is one of the most perfect side grades ever, don't complain about it since an upclose a rocket does 100+ and a soldier use one of this rockets to close tha gap between you and him to insta-kill your bootie. Shotgun also have the benefict of that you can land a perfect shot, an good shot, but missing all the damage is very hard to happen, with the flare gun is: maximum damage, or complete miss, and you still can dodge the flares.[/QUOTE] Also, flaregun is not good against Pyros and chargin' targe Demomans, and you can still reflect them. [B]My[/B] problem is just with the degreaser+flare combo.

[QUOTE=Omninerd;41668495]I'm surprised how many people discuss about the degreaser+axtinguisher combo, but such a few people talk about the degreaser+flare gun combo, that is almost as infuriating as the degreaser+axtinguisher combo, at least for me. Of course it takes more skill to get kills with it, but still...[/QUOTE] Because most classes can shrug off one crit flare in exchange for killing the pyro. 195 damage is not as easily shrugged.

After 6K hours of TF2, I think about the Dextinguisher as being a result of not proper positioning, not paying atention, being deathmatched out, in the pub, 6's and highlander enviroment, you have been insta-killed like as you could be: two shotted by a scout, point blank shotted by Direct Hit, get cought in a trap, face a heavy after passing a corner point blank, pass a corner and found a lvl 3 sentry, meet a Kritz patient, being headshotted, backstabbed, all this is pretty much an ista-kill as the same with the pyro.

[QUOTE=ScarfaceCrow;41669433]After 6K hours of TF2, I think about the Dextinguisher as being a result of not proper positioning, not paying atention, being deathmatched out, in the pub, 6's and highlander enviroment, you have been insta-killed like as you could be: two shotted by a scout, point blank shotted by Direct Hit, get cought in a trap, face a heavy after passing a corner point blank, pass a corner and found a lvl 3 sentry, meet a Kritz patient, being headshotted, backstabbed, all this is pretty much an ista-kill as the same with the pyro.[/QUOTE] Lets face it, most classes have their own personal 'on demand' 1Hit Kill, Headshot for sniper (Or bushwacka piss crits), Backstab for spy (Or well placed Ambassador headshots), Medic's outrageous melee crits (Maybe you could count his kritz for others instead), Soldier's Direct hit, Demo's stickies (And Splendid + most melees), Scout's fantastic sandman guilotine combo, Etc. As for pyro, we got Axtinguisher as a one demand one hit kill, and that's about it.

[QUOTE=Giggle;41669631]Lets face it, most classes have their own personal 'on demand' 1Hit Kill, Headshot for sniper (Or bushwacka piss crits), Backstab for spy (Or well placed Ambassador headshots), Medic's outrageous melee crits (Maybe you could count his kritz for others instead), Soldier's Direct hit, Demo's stickies (And Splendid + most melees), Scout's fantastic sandman guilotine combo, Etc. As for pyro, we got Axtinguisher as a one demand one hit kill, and that's about it.[/QUOTE] None of those take absolutely zero aim to pull off [I]and[/I] make it impossible to dodge once you happen to be in range of it Sniper headshots are usually due to bad situational awareness, as he is supposed to be area denial. That's fine, i went into his territory and he outgunned me by hitting me in my head. Sniper bushwacka is a bit worse, but he is a weak class, needs over twice the time to pull off the combo, and doesn't stop my ability to escape from him Spy's backstab or ambassador are rewards for doing well, tricking enemies or ambushing them or aiming well. The ambassador isn't one-hit-kill either. For the medic, every class gets random crits and you can't count those. Kritz are a viable sidegrade to being invincible, and counting that is silly as well(you might as well complain about level 3 sentries killing you quickly) Soldier's direct hit really doesn't make much of a difference if it's not at close range, and at that point you would die by regular rockets if someone had coughed on you earlier. Same thing for the loch'n'load. Splendid is a bit bullshit like sniper's bushwacka, but you're still giving away all your range for that instant kill and you're not limiting the enemy's movement, so you're avoidable. Sticky traps are supposed to be that, traps. Your fault for walking into them. Scout's combo relies on blocking movement, but it requires a certain amount of aim and you can't pull it off without recharging your ball. Valve themselves have said the sandman is a mistake, but at least the combo isn't something you can do often(and the scattergun rewards you for aiming and is better anyway) The issue with the axtinguisher or the flaregun for that matter is that it [B]doesn't[/B] take aim, it [B]doesn't[/B] take positioning or skill into account at all, and it [B]doesn't[/B] give your target a chance to escape because their movement is limited, their aim is sabotaged and pyro's health prevents killing him before he kills you. [U]The instakill takes no skill to pull off, having more skill makes no difference, and evading it requires ridiculous luck, skill or is simply impossible.[/U] This is the exact thing valve talked about in their balancing blogpost, weapons that aren't fun to play against and take no skill to actually use properly This is the same reason the enforcer, sticky-spamming and borderline hacking is frowned upon, because it rewards you for doing absolutely shit while being impossible to counter. An ambassador spy twoshotting me by headshotting me first is fine, an enforcer clicking in my general direction twice isn't. What pyro needs is a way to do the same damage as, or even outdamage, the axtinguisher. There's no doubt about it that he needs the damage the axtinguisher combo does. However, it needs to be something you put actual skill in, something that works for newbies but only does devastating damage when you use it just right, not something you can pull off 99% of the time by pressing M1, M2, 3, M1. The closest thing we have to this is the backburner, and it relies on too broken mechanics to be counted.

[QUOTE=Omninerd;41668495]I'm surprised how many people discuss about the degreaser+axtinguisher combo, but such a few people talk about the degreaser+flare gun combo, that is almost as infuriating as the degreaser+axtinguisher combo, at least for me. Of course it takes more skill to get kills with it, but still...[/QUOTE] Flare gun is easier to balance. Revert the crit-at-any-range patch so it doesn't crit at point blank, like it used to be.

Except the Flare Gun is not the problem there, it is, once again, THE FUCKING DEGREASER having the best attribute in the game at no real cost. Seriously, once it got the crits at any distance, it became worthwhile as a weapon. I mean, how many of you use the Manmelter? How many of you get KILLS with the Manmelter? Flare Guns have pathetic base damage, slow firing speed, and lol afterburn. Crits on burning targets makes it comparable to a shotgun. Not to mention, weapons that do more damage at long ranges feel counterintuitive, mostly because this is a game where close range is best for EVERYTHING but two weapons. And those two weapons are awkward more often than not. Shooting fire and a flare in less that 10 frames? THAT'S the bullshit deal. The fucking Degreaser.

Oh come on. Who would not use flare gun/axtinguisher when the degreaser gets nerfed.

People who don't want to be countered by other Pyros and Targe Demoknights, for instance? Seriously, I run vanilla FT/Flare Gun/Axtinguisher as my secondary loadout, and it requires an insane ammount of timing to properly pull out the crits, sacrifices crowd control and movility, and, as I said, countered by your same class (unless it runs the same loadout with the Degreaser, in which case you outdamage it). Pyro is crowd control, the assassin loadouts take that away. I personally am VERY fond of my Backburner/Detonator/Backscratcher loadout, taking unexpected routes and critburning the ass of the enemy team, medic first, while using every single health pack to feel unkillable. And those random crits will take down a soldier in a single hit, after all. So yeah, the Pyro has alternatives, but it involves awareness, not going after a single target.

[QUOTE=Drury;41671034]Oh come on. Who would not use flare gun/axtinguisher when the degreaser gets nerfed.[/QUOTE] Nothing would change. The Flare Gun and the Axtinguisher have been core items for the Pyro since they've been released. The Flare Gun only became better when they added mini-crits and then crits. Just because you don't have your precious switch speed doesn't mean the Pyro still can't kill you.

I personally don't mind the Flare Gun as much because it means Pyros sacrifice their capability to take on other Pyros. The Reserve Shooter, on the other hand, should never have been given to him. It just perpetuates the worst kind of gameplay.

[QUOTE=Bynine;41671658]I personally don't mind the Flare Gun as much because it means Pyros sacrifice their capability to take on other Pyros. The Reserve Shooter, on the other hand, should never have been given to him. It just perpetuates the worst kind of gameplay.[/QUOTE] The Reserve Shooter on its own is actually relatively fine. If any problem exists with the Reserve Shooter and the Pyro, it's how the compression blast functions. The airblast poops people upward in a predictable trajectory, regardless of the angle the compression blast comes from. Soldier's rockets don't pop people straight up in the air in a simple and universal path which is why it's relatively difficult to use the Reserve Shooter on him. The same issues could be brought up when complaining about the Flare Gun crits and the Axtinguisher. The problem resides in the manner that the compression blast functions in, and yet no one actually acknowledges it. Making the compression blast function as straight knockback might alter a lot of the stigma about the Pyro's comboing options by making the Pyro more mindful of the way he pushes people around. He'd still push people around, just in ways that require greater attention to positioning and direction.

But still, let's not forget he gets crits for nothing. Yes, airblast is also broken, yes, weapon switch is also bad, but weapons that crit on burning targets shouldn't be a thing. They leave no option for the user but to equip them, they're just too good and will remain that way as long as it's easy for pyro to set people on fire.

So, would the old unsplit Equalizer work with the Marked for Death penalty added? It seems to work with the Escape Plan, and would be fun in my opinion. I still think the Escape Plan should have a 50% damage penalty, so at full health it and the Equalizer would be identical, but oh well...

[video=youtube;ndZoP4yctqA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndZoP4yctqA[/video] I blame this video for making sting'n puff so popular, see ne degreaser, sting'n puff is popular not because of the Degraser, but because the Pyro can control your movement, also people are saying that it require no skill, well, I present you the airstrafing, my team got the 4th place in south america UGC, in on of my rare enconters with a pyro on the last (9 week match), I encoutered a pyro who tryed to puff'n sting my medic ass, he embaressed himself for missing 3 axe swings while my team responded fast killing him, my scout milked me to put out the flames and my heavy gave me a good sandvich, well, if he just flamed me, I would be dead.

[QUOTE=RandomGamer342;41670606]None of those take absolutely zero aim to pull off [I]and[/I] make it impossible to dodge once you happen to be in range of it Splendid is a bit bullshit like sniper's bushwacka, but you're still giving away all your range for that instant kill and you're [B]not limiting the enemy's movement[/B], so you're avoidable. Sticky traps are supposed to be that, traps. Your fault for walking into them. [/QUOTE] The splendid screen 9/10 times will launch me into the air for the demo to get a clean-n-easy instant kill critical hit (Less I'm a heavy with good health, but still) so I guess unless getting stuck in the air few a few seconds isn't limiting your mobilization and pyro airblast doesn't actually stop any movement at all

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41670850]Except the Flare Gun is not the problem there, it is, once again, THE FUCKING DEGREASER having the best attribute in the game at no real cost.[/QUOTE] As long as the degreaser has the ability to light people on fire and the weapon switch speed, people will use it no matter what damage reduction or whatever it has. While I said before suggesting any nerfs for it would be meaningless, taking more damage for having it equipped, or less health overall (probably more damage from enemy sources so as to not fuck with detonator jumps), would encourage you to use it skillfully to avoid damage, and being punished even harder if you fail. It would also shut up people who complain that there's no way to stop degreaser + axtinguisher pyros if they can now kill them easier if the pyro uses the combo like an idiot. Though the pyro is still plagued by the problem of being the worst combat class in the game due to his flamethrowers doing terrible DPS. I feel like if Valve is going to balance the degreaser in the next wave of weapon changes, this is what will happen if large-scale flamethrower changes don't take place.

I remember when the guys heard that this update would make weapons balance and everyone called it the "Miniguns fixing update"... :v: But yeah, what makes all these pyro combos look so OP (or just not fun to play against) is just the degreaser, IMO. If they gave it something that make people think "meh, I think I won't use this right now" would make it better, but its downsides doesn't have that effect at all! About the Axtinguisher, it has the intention of doing a great raw damage, while all the other Pyro melees give him interesting alternative buffs, like more speed, more health from medkits, destroying sappers... I think Axtinguisher feels ok, along with all his melees (of course VF and FA aren't included in these. They are just bad).

[QUOTE=Giggle;41669631]Lets face it, most classes have their own personal 'on demand' 1Hit Kill, Headshot for sniper (Or bushwacka piss crits), Backstab for spy (Or well placed Ambassador headshots), Medic's outrageous melee crits (Maybe you could count his kritz for others instead), Soldier's Direct hit, Demo's stickies (And Splendid + most melees), Scout's fantastic sandman guilotine combo, Etc. As for pyro, we got Axtinguisher as a one demand one hit kill, and that's about it.[/QUOTE] Yeah the degreaser + axt is not OP, it's just not fun to play against. So unless Valve decides to redesign the Pyro and his primary (which Valve won't) the Pyro needs that combo to even be a playable class

[QUOTE=ScarfaceCrow;41672808][video=youtube;ndZoP4yctqA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndZoP4yctqA[/video] I blame this video for making sting'n puff so popular, see ne degreaser, sting'n puff is popular not because of the Degraser, but because the Pyro can control your movement, also people are saying that it require no skill, well, I present you the airstrafing, my team got the 4th place in south america UGC, in on of my rare enconters with a pyro on the last (9 week match), I encoutered a pyro who tryed to puff'n sting my medic ass, he embaressed himself for missing 3 axe swings while my team responded fast killing him, my scout milked me to put out the flames and my heavy gave me a good sandvich, well, if he just flamed me, I would be dead.[/QUOTE] When you somehow avoid puff'n'sting, it's more about the pyro's incompetence than anything else. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ7tJFtKS0Q[/media]

[QUOTE=The Baconator;41676637]Yeah the degreaser + axt is not OP, it's just not fun to play against. So unless Valve decides to redesign the Pyro and his primary (which Valve won't) the Pyro needs that combo to even be a playable class[/QUOTE] I play just fine via jumping behind the enemy team and critflaming their asses to death, Medic first, while getting 152 HP back from a medium healthkit and having sweet over 200 melee random crits, to be honest.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41678235]I play just fine via jumping behind the enemy team and critflaming their asses to death, Medic first, while getting 152 HP back from a medium healthkit and having sweet over 200 melee random crits, to be honest.[/QUOTE] yeah same, I get mvp with my stock FT, shotgun and homewrecker, being an engies best friend!

[QUOTE=MrBunneh;41678401]yeah same, I get mvp with my stock FT, shotgun and homewrecker, being an engies best friend![/QUOTE] Or worst enemy. Loving it to rodeo their Sentries and hammering them down with 2 hits. Or when they redeploy.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41678235]I play just fine via jumping behind the enemy team and critflaming their asses to death, Medic first, while getting 152 HP back from a medium healthkit and having sweet over 200 melee random crits, to be honest.[/QUOTE] And I can top score as Demoknight but that doesn't mean it isn't underpowered compared to what I could be using You can make pretty much any loadout work in pubs due to how disorganized and generally bad people are in them

[QUOTE=MrBunneh;41678401]yeah same, I get mvp with my stock FT, shotgun and homewrecker, being an engies best friend![/QUOTE] you can mvp as anything in a pub that doesn't matter [editline]1st August 2013[/editline] oh wow sniped 5 minutes ago, read his post instead it's better worded

[QUOTE=The Baconator;41676637]Yeah the degreaser + axt is not OP, it's just not fun to play against.[/QUOTE] Exactly. Pyro needs a complete overhaul, I don't see it any other way. It's not effective, yet it's super frustrating when you do get killed by him in any way. Who likes dying of afterburn? Who likes getting puff'n'stinged? Who likes W+M1? Who likes dying in any of those ways by turning a corner and randomly running into a pyro? Yes, every sort of death in TF2 is annoying, but dying to pyros is extra bad, mostly because it's so easy for them to kill you within their range and nearly impossible to avoid. And then it's frustrating for pyros themselves to fight in any other way, they're out of options. They either find a way to flank the enemy and then effortlessly kill them or just keep getting killed over and over trying to charge them head-on (like new players often do).

[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/1/14/Backpack_Brass_Beast.png/90px-Backpack_Brass_Beast.png?t=20110424224500[/IMG] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]+20% damage bonus [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]+25% crit resistance while spun up [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]+25% headshot vulnerability while firing [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]50% slower spin up time [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]-60% slower move speed while deployed Slight buff to this long-suffering weapon. Not much to say, besides that there's an added strategy of not firing if you spot a good enemy Sniper so that he doesn't kill you and your team can take care of him.

[QUOTE=Bynine;41687044][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/1/14/Backpack_Brass_Beast.png/90px-Backpack_Brass_Beast.png?t=20110424224500[/IMG] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]+20% damage bonus [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]+25% crit resistance while spun up [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]+25% headshot vulnerability while firing [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]50% slower spin up time [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]-60% slower move speed while deployed Slight buff to this long-suffering weapon. Not much to say, besides that there's an added strategy of not firing if you spot a good enemy Sniper so that he doesn't kill you and your team can take care of him.[/QUOTE] I don't think sniper needs a nerf to counter heavies. All a heavy has to do is point his mini gun in the sniper's general direction and the constant flinching makes it impossible to headshot.