The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

-nm then....-

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41701425]Well, the axtinguisher requires weapon switching to work properly. So shoot the pyro while backpedaling while it switches and swings. It is not like half the melee hits in the game aren't 195 crits anyway...[/QUOTE] Let me explain further into it. Most of the melee weapons in the game do 195 damage crits. The exceptions are the Bat and Knife, as well as weapons like the Fan of War and Scotsmans Skullcutter. (Although the FoW is still technically a Scout bat.) These weapons have something called "random crits" which are rolled each time you hit with these weapons, which gives you a chance of a critical hit. The game is engineered to also have higher critical chances at the start and middle of a fight, to give the player a chance at a memorable rampage. The Axtinguisher gives you a free 195 critical hit on anybody that is on fire. It doesn't sound too balanced in the short run, but when you have to deal with weapon switch time it isn't really a big problem. You have a good chance of avoiding it, and if he can survive long enough to switch weapons and hit you then he deserves that kill. The Degreaser throws that out of the window, as you can instantly pull out the Axtinguisher for the free 195 damage hit at any moment of time. It [b]DOES NOT[/B] require weapon switching to be a good weapon, as any good and competent Pyro can show you. It was a nice and stable weapon that didn't need any balancing at all. With the entrance of the Degreaser, it became the most powerful Pyro weapon in existance. It became what the Ubersaw is to the Medic on a more drastic scale. Your suggestion on how to beat an Axtinguisher Pyro only works on players who aren't using the Degreaser. Very few people use the Axtinguisher without the Degreaser.

For the Short Circuit, why not something simple like "15% faster weapon switch"

[QUOTE=light dasher;41702021]For the Short Circuit, why not something simple like "15% faster weapon switch"[/QUOTE] But that would make engineers be able to spam minisentries at ludicrous speed instead of light speed :v:

Why not make the degreaser replace crits with mini-crits? But not crits from kritzkrieg, canteen in mvm, etc. This will make axtinguisher more viable with other flamethrowers.

[QUOTE=Mentlegen;41701886]Let me explain further into it. Most of the melee weapons in the game do 195 damage crits. The exceptions are the Bat and Knife, as well as weapons like the Fan of War and Scotsmans Skullcutter. (Although the FoW is still technically a Scout bat.) These weapons have something called "random crits" which are rolled each time you hit with these weapons, which gives you a chance of a critical hit. The game is engineered to also have higher critical chances at the start and middle of a fight, to give the player a chance at a memorable rampage. The Axtinguisher gives you a free 195 critical hit on anybody that is on fire. It doesn't sound too balanced in the short run, but when you have to deal with weapon switch time it isn't really a big problem. You have a good chance of avoiding it, and if he can survive long enough to switch weapons and hit you then he deserves that kill. The Degreaser throws that out of the window, as you can instantly pull out the Axtinguisher for the free 195 damage hit at any moment of time. It [b]DOES NOT[/B] require weapon switching to be a good weapon, as any good and competent Pyro can show you. It was a nice and stable weapon that didn't need any balancing at all. With the entrance of the Degreaser, it became the most powerful Pyro weapon in existance. It became what the Ubersaw is to the Medic on a more drastic scale. Your suggestion on how to beat an Axtinguisher Pyro only works on players who aren't using the Degreaser. Very few people use the Axtinguisher without the Degreaser.[/QUOTE] Except pyro still has to get into melee range to use it. Even with airblast killing a pyro before he gets there is not a monumental task, even a medic can do it.

[QUOTE=ToastedTea;41702053]But that would make engineers be able to spam minisentries at ludicrous speed instead of light speed :v:[/QUOTE] But they'd still be using the Short Circuit.

[QUOTE=OceanGovernor;41698717]The problem is any nerfs to degreaser would be changing the band-aid valve put on the class. They will never do this so we have to think of reworks for flamethrowers themselves so that having less damage is an actual downside, and that degreser can be secure in its role as a 1v1 king but bad against groups.[/QUOTE] Exactly. I wish more people here understood Valve isn't going to nerf the degreaser or axtinquisher because Valve actually wants this [editline]3rd August 2013[/editline] I also 100% believe that the combo is not OP. And I am a Scout, Soldier, and Medic main (afterburn and air blasts are my bane) It's not "the degreaser is the problem!" or "the axtinquisher is the problem!" it's the Pyro that's the problem and he needs reworking, but Valve won't do that at this point Also tbh the only times I have been puff and stinged (not many pyros uses this combo) is when I am turned around and they sneak up on you, which is a fair kill

i use the reserve shooter with the degreaser, feels so good

Market gardener should crit glow when it is able to crit.

That'd be distracting and wouldn't help at all.

Maybe instead of "-50% damage vs non-burning players" simply put "-50% damage dealt? It will deal 99 damage on crits. Or maybe give Degreaser a speed bonus fall off? Like "+60% weapon switch time; -30% after each weapon switch"..?

I hate the argument that the Pyro needs to be in melee range. All of his fighting is in close range. He is a close range class. If you aren't up close with your enemy, then you aren't doing a good job as Pyro. I dislike the belief that Puff-n-Sting is balanced. It's not OP, but it's nearing dangerously close to that ledge. I think lower damage could be the answer, just not on the scale that Limie Pie suggests. I think the Axtinguisher could work better if its critical hits did perhaps 150 damage, instead of 195. This would require the Pyro to do more than just puff a flame particle and slap them. It would require the Pyro to actually deal some damage instead of handing them an instant kill against Soldiers. It helps out the strongest classes in the game (Heavy, Soldier, Demoman), while still giving the Pyro a form of burst damage that lets him take out the weaker ones. If the Pyro Puff-n-Stings a Soldier, then that Soldier has about 50 health (more or less) to figure out what he needs to do to survive before he dies to afterburn. Also, Heavies would still die in two hits. (150 + 150 = 300) This would encourage players to either pick between afterburn with the other flamethrowers, or a quick burst of damage before finishing them off with the Degreaser. The damage and afterburn penalties come into play, more people use the other flamethrowers over Degreaser.

I don't know how many times we need to say "don't nerf the Axtinguisher." Even if the Axtinguisher, Flare Gun, and Reserve Shooter were irreparably nerfed, the Degreaser would still be the most used Flamethrower and Pyro would just be even crappier. Plus all three of those are perfectly legitimate with the three other flamethrowers and don't deserve to have that taken away from them.

It supposed to be logical with 1 hit kill weapons. Annihilator punishes you when you dare to go into a water near the Pyro. Knife punishes you for being too careless. Headshots - either standing on open spaces or moving too predictable. And what Axtinguisher punishes you for? You get 1 hit killed as almost any class just because you've... dared to go into enemy territory while being on fire or came too close to Degreaser-wielding Pyro? But you're right, I guess. Axetinguisher wasn't a big problem before the Mann Store update. That's why I like Degreaser's suggestion. Make it switch weapons slower if he does it too fast. Like you have to wait about 1 second before switching again to restore the bonus.

does anyone actually use the detonator or scorch shot? Manmelter, flaregun, shotgun, and reserve shooter seem much better

[QUOTE=Suttles;41711231]does anyone actually use the detonator or scorch shot? Manmelter, flaregun, shotgun, and reserve shooter seem much better[/QUOTE] Scorch shot is so priceless when you knock someone miles away from the point or off a bridge. As for the detonator - [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVAzqk-OtgY"]Pyrofessional Ambush Tactics[/URL]

[QUOTE=Suttles;41711231]does anyone actually use the detonator or scorch shot? Manmelter, flaregun, shotgun, and reserve shooter seem much better[/QUOTE] I use the Scorch Shot when I play Pyro, it's fun to use but I wish they would buff it a little. Not like make the damage better but give it a larger explosion radius or bigger flare.

The Detonator is far, far better than the Manmelter. I'd still be using it if the Attendant set didn't get removed.

the frying pan +1000 decibels

Here some stats that we could get to nerf a little the Degreaser without removing it's main stat of being a weapon for powerfull combos. - Old airblast fire rate. - Reflects are not mini-crits. - Less push force from airblasts. - +XX% airblast ammo cost. Also instead of putting crazy stats on the Axtinguisher like crits are double damage, just ajust it's base damage stat, so... 25% less damage > 49 Base damage > 147 Crit Damage. Also Valve could put a crazy condition for the crit like the target being on fire for at least 1 sec, so that would require a little bit mind behind using the combo, pyros would use more fire, and keep the Axt, for big health classes like the heavy, but I insist as an "ultiduo main" (soldier/medic) that I don't think, that this two weapons don't really need a nerf, they are just anoying to fight against, like good snipers, like spies, like sentries in general, and they are fine as they are right now...

The Detonator *no extra/less self damage -25-40% extra push force while in use I think this would make this more useful as a jumping weapon.

It's not the Degreaser's fault or the Axtinguisher's fault. Both the Degreaser and Axtinguisher need to be nerfed. The Degreaser needs to have it's switch speed lowered, and they need to rework the Axtinguisher so it compares with the other 1-hit kill combos. If Scout and Sniper have to wait for things to recharge before getting another chance to try again, So should Pyro. I don't see why people are being obvious to the fact that the Axtinguisher is pretty much a free kill when ever the Pyro pleases.

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;41713165]It's not the Degreaser's fault or the Axtinguisher's fault. Both the Degreaser and Axtinguisher need to be nerfed. The Degreaser needs to have it's switch speed lowered, and they need to rework the Axtinguisher so it compares with the other 1-hit kill combos. If Scout and Sniper have to wait for things to recharge before getting another chance to try again, So should Pyro. I don't see why people are being obvious to the fact that the Axtinguisher is pretty much a free kill when ever the Pyro pleases.[/QUOTE] Which is why I usually get kills as a pyro with my primary or secondary

It's been nonstop talk about Degreaser + Axtinguisher. Can we for the love of god please stop?

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;41713596]It's been nonstop talk about Degreaser + Axtinguisher. Can we for the love of god please stop?[/QUOTE] This is the Weapon Fixing thread, and the 2 weapons are in need of fixing. We just can't come to an agreement on what would be the best way of handling it.

[QUOTE=Bynine;41712485]The Detonator is far, far better than the Manmelter. I'd still be using it if the Attendant set didn't get removed.[/QUOTE] Agree with this quite a bit. Det jockey was so mobile for pyro, only shotgun jockey really compared with usefulness.

This thread should just be renamed into "The "Degreastinguisher Fixing Megathread" - We (attempt to) fix the pyro and get in fights (mostly the latter)"

People want reworks on other weapons... are you sure ? how about --------(Also equipable on the primary sloth)------- [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/62/Item_icon_Buffalo_Steak_Sandvich.png/100px-Item_icon_Buffalo_Steak_Sandvich.png?t=20120630231919[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/3/35/Item_icon_Dalokohs_Bar.png/100px-Item_icon_Dalokohs_Bar.png?t=20120630232027[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/5e/Item_icon_Sandvich.png/100px-Item_icon_Sandvich.png?t=20120630234016[/IMG] ---------(Also equipable on the primary sloth)--------

To me, pyro is a "foil the enemy plans and assist your team" class