The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

Because it is not a Demoknight weapon, it is a multiclass weapon with stats that gets exploited by demoknights. It also has the same range as the bottle.

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;41723095]Why does the Half-Zatoichi get to be the only Demoknight weapon to get random crits. It's obviously the most OP Demoknight melee weapon.[/QUOTE] It's been said a million times - the shields need to make melees never randomly crit. That'd both make half-zatoichi not so OP with a shield and make the other demo melees, which would have their "no random crits" attribute removed, somewhat viable outside demoknight.

[QUOTE=Lolkork;41723290]The Eyelander is actually good if you play defensively because it allows you to kill spies for heads, and once you have 2 heads you could really do anything you want. [editline]5th August 2013[/editline] But I still agree, I feel that I never use anything other than the bottle most of the time.[/QUOTE] Demoman's probably the only class I can say with confidence that his stock loadout is his best.

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;41723313]Demoman's probably the only class I can say with confidence that his stock loadout is his best.[/QUOTE] loch n load is amazing i like the cannon too

Zantoichi as last Melee resort actually works really well, healing you. The Skullcutter also works nicely for stickybomb demos on defense, as increased range and damage makes them respectable in close quarters, AND has brutal random crits.

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;41723313]Demoman's probably the only class I can say with confidence that his stock loadout is his best.[/QUOTE] When I want to play demo[I]man[/I], I normally go stock except the bottle; the Caber honestly feels a lot stronger to me, and I honestly don't kill much with it anyway (not that I play demoman much).

[QUOTE=Suttles;41723328]loch n load is amazing[/QUOTE] Loch-n-Load is a piece of shit. Since I'm too lazy to repeat myself, have a quote...also from myself: [QUOTE=Psychopath12;41612708]If they fixed the random damage spread on grenades, the Loch-n-Load would be almost unanimously worse off. With grenade base damage at 100, that places the LnL at a nifty 120 damage, assuming damage spread worked consistently. Let's crunch some numbers both with stock and with LnL. hp | default | loch | stock + Overheal | Loch + Overheal 125 | 2 pipes | 2 pipes | 2 pipes | 2 pipes 150 | 2 pipes | 2 pipes | 3 pipes | 2 pipes 175 | 2 pipes | 2 pipes | 3 pipes | 3 pipes 200 | 2 pipes | 2 pipes | 3 pipes | 3 pipes 300 | 3 pipes | 3 pipes | 5 pipes | 4 pipes So against classes, the Loch only really breaks any damage thresholds when fighting against an overhealed Medic (or class with equal health) and an overhealed Heavy. However, the numbers don't account for healing that happens during the skirmish, so the pipes required is typically going to be higher. Now there's also buildings to account for. To save you some reading, the only threshold that's really broken is with the Level 3 sentry, which will be taken down in 2 shots. So let's break it down. You trade the zoning capabilities of rollers as well as half of your clip, so you can "save" 1 pipe when you're fighting an overhealed heavy (which you'll need to continuously reload to keep laying down hurt, which will almost undoubtedly cost you more time than firing 4 consecutive shots)...so you can take down level 3 sentries in 2 shots...instead of using your sticky launcher. The only other upsides are insignificant at best, faster pipes don't help your aim too much if you can aim worth a damn and the grenades shattering when hitting a surface is only helpful if you're terrible at handling Pyros who know how to reflect. It is not "Pretty balanced stats wise", you get absolutely nothing of realistic value for a huge cost. You don't even get to reliably 1-shot light classes like with the Direct Hit because damage spread is so inconsistent with itself.[/QUOTE]

I find Loch'n'Load pipes much easier to land and it instakills light classes more often than not. That makes it good in my book. I don't need tables or anything for that.

No one ever said that instant kills are fun or engaging either. Unless it requires some sort of specific positioning and/or pre-planning, instant kills can eat shit.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;41723482]Loch-n-Load is a piece of shit. Since I'm too lazy to repeat myself, have a quote...also from myself:[/QUOTE] You don't account damage spread. With it, i have a rough 50% chance of taking down any 125hp class with one hit, which is pretty good spamming-wise. Direct Hit can only do so at point blank range, Loch'n'Load can do it at close, medium and even long ranges. In my humble opinion, this evens out the lack of rollers and the smaller clip.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;41723756]No one ever said that instant kills are fun or engaging either. Unless it requires some sort of specific positioning and/or pre-planning, instant kills can eat shit.[/QUOTE] Wait, you sounded like you were okay with Direct Hit

[QUOTE=Drury;41723847]Wait, you sounded you were okay with Direct Hit[/QUOTE] Concept is fine, execution is abysmal. My Direct Hit +25% damage vs buildings +40% projectile speed Mini-crits targets launched airborne by explosions -70% explosion damage You get splash, the most important tool for any Soldier worth his salt. However, the splash is very weak. It knocks people around and will actively enable you to use the weapon's primary function far more frequently. Since you get splash control once again, the extra damage is not necessary, but I kept it for buildings because I know people use the DH as a Sentry buster. Also the speed was reduced because 180% speed rockets with full splash range is ridiculous.

Zatoichi, no-crits, eyelander range

The entirety of the Loch-n-Load's core design is nothing to be proud of, anyway. Increased damage is a bust and is hardly something to consider a "core" of a weapon's design. Faster projectile speed is awful as a weapon core. Look at the Liberty Launcher if you need proof of that. No rollers is pretty fucking bad to design a Grenade Launcher around. Why would anyone design a weapon around doing more damage to yourself? So there's only 1 sensible thing to redesign the weapon around: it having 2 shots. It worked for the Force-a-Nature, it can work for the Loch-n-Load. The rest of the weapon can be redesigned from scratch. The 2-shot nature can be remedied by a full reload, much like the Force-a-Nature. Reloading is a big thing with Demoman, so a way to reload 2 shots simultaneously would actually make a significant impact. The rest is up for discussion. But before that, I offer 1 question: what void is this trying to fill? What purpose is there that isn't already covered by another weapon in the same slot? The Loose Cannon filled a role of being a proper "Demoman's Direct Hit" by awarding players who can properly time Double Donks (even before the change that made Donks do minicrits). But at the same time, it also gave the Demoman a powerful zoning tool through potent knockback, with a tradeoff of rollers doing pitiable damage. The Demoman traded indirect zoning for direct zoning, which is both good and bad for the Demoman (ie an actual tradeoff). It'd be pointless to try to redesign a new Loch-n-Load with the intent of being the "Demoman's Direct Hit," go for some new approach instead.

The Loch n Load potentially onehits light classes at any range (which is bonkers to me), the Direct Hit onehits light classes at close range. They're quite different in that respect.

[QUOTE=Bynine;41724141]The Loch n Load potentially onehits light classes at any range (which is bonkers to me), the Direct Hit onehits light classes at close range. They're quite different in that respect.[/QUOTE] The difference is that the Direct Hit is consistent, while the Loch-n-Load is consistently inconsistent. If you snipe someone with the Loch-n-Load, you might do 103 damage, killing no one. Or you might peg them for 147, which won't leave any non-overhealed light class standing except an Engineer with the Gunslinger or Spy with an armed Dead Ringer. That's a wild and crazy random deviation and it's simply unfair to everyone involved. Hell, if they simply fixed the spread, more people would realize just how bad the Loch-n-Load is because they wouldn't get random 1-shots on light classes anymore, which is apparently the only good thing people have to say about it when using it.

Fix the spread, make it more worthwhile (like having a full clip instead of just 2 shots).

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41724242]Fix the spread, make it more worthwhile (like having a full clip instead of just 2 shots).[/QUOTE] 20 more damage per shot isn't worth giving rollers up, even if the two weapons were identical in every other way. Even if they fix the spread deviation and every bug about it, rollers are just way too important to give up for a little more extra direct-pipe damage.

psychopath you seem really mad over the loch-n-load honestly I used it for a good year and a half because it was fun, and now that I've switched back to the stock launcher I can consistently land grenades on people I'm attacking instead of mindlessly spamming the loch-n-load should be the demo's version of the direct hit, but currently it does nothing but one-shot classes randomly and help you practice with not spamming your grenades

[QUOTE=Lolkork;41724275]The demoman doesn't really need a specific direct hit weapon at all because landing direct hits has always been the intended way for demomen to deal damage in combat, while the soldier has never really been about being very accurate which made the direct hit very different from his stock weapon.[/QUOTE] I never said that he needed a Direct Hit weapon, it's just that the Loose Cannon worked out that way. It is the "hit people with proper grenade cooking in order to do tons of damage" weapon. But it's way easier to call it the "Demoman's Direct Hit" since the same general idea is there: good aim and timing rewarded with extra damage. Just because it was done in a different way doesn't mean it's not in that category. Also, I think that a Rocket Launcher that only functions off of direct hits is a poor one since it restricts so much that the Soldier is capable of with splash. I would rather that the Direct Hit be a juggling weapon instead of a weapon dedicated to directly hitting people [i]all[/i] of the time; hence my earlier DH pitch.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;41724266]20 more damage per shot isn't worth giving rollers up, even if the two weapons were identical in every other way. Even if they fix the spread deviation and every bug about it, rollers are just way too important to give up for a little more extra direct-pipe damage.[/QUOTE] It also has increased splash area as a side effect of the higher damage, and it is noticeable.

Maybe the loch n load could have a force a nature like clip?

[QUOTE=Unisath;41724304]psychopath you seem really mad over the loch-n-load honestly I used it for a good year and a half because it was fun, and now that I've switched back to the stock launcher I can consistently land grenades on people I'm attacking instead of mindlessly spamming the loch-n-load should be the demo's version of the direct hit, but currently it does nothing but one-shot classes randomly and help you practice with not spamming your grenades[/QUOTE] I've used the thing and I utterly despised how polarized it made my play feel. Either I'd get lucky and 1-shot a bunch of people, or I'd get unlucky and the 1-shots wouldn't come. And regardless of my luck, having only 2 shots means I can only really deal with 1 threat at a time without having to swap to stickies (which is rarely going to happen). Hell, even if I only brought the Loch out for dealing with close-range threats, good players will tend to not attack you one at a time and give you a chance to reload between attacks. I couldn't even deal with bombing Soldiers when using the thing because even if I connected both shots, he'd still have enough health to get me while I'm reloading. If I had the stock at the time I could have popped out another in order to take him down. Against good players, the Loch-n-Load's shortcomings become increasingly obvious. Even against bad players, I felt like I could be doing more with 4 shots than with 2. As someone who's sunk more than 400 hours into Demoman combined across comp and pub play, I think I have a rough idea of what I'm talking about when I say the Loch-n-Load sucks. [editline]5th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Eriorguez;41724366]It also has increased splash area as a side effect of the higher damage, and it is noticeable.[/QUOTE] No, they both have the same splash range. Loch-n-Load has a slightly larger [i]effective[/i] range, due to the increased splash damage. But really, it's not too often that competent people are going to cluster close enough for you to take out a bunch of them with the Loch-n-Load when you couldn't already do the same to them with the Grenade Launcher.

[QUOTE=Lolkork;41724275]The demoman doesn't really need a specific direct hit weapon at all because landing direct hits has always been the intended way for demomen to deal damage in combat[/QUOTE] No not really. There's a reason the sticky launcher is classified as a primary weapon in the crafting system. It has the capacity to output 2x the damage of pipes with more more ease of use. Just because a weapon is hard to use and has the ability to kill a class doesn't mean it's the primary weapon (looking at you people who want fat scout taken seriously as a heavy sub-class).

[QUOTE=wari65;41724505]No not really. There's a reason the sticky launcher is classified as a primary weapon in the crafting system. It has the capacity to output 2x the damage of pipes with more more ease of use. Just because a weapon is hard to use and has the ability to kill a class doesn't mean it's the primary weapon (looking at you people who want fat scout taken seriously as a heavy sub-class).[/QUOTE] While it is possible to design a heavy shotgun that would realistically be able to fit the primary slot and replace Sasha, it boils down to whether or not it'd be something that's useable as a HWGuy weapon in general and not just something people do when messing around. The biggest change from Minigun to Heavy Shotgun would be the lack of spinup (and all downsides inflicted by that such as slowdown and inability to jump). If that doesn't properly fit into the Heavy Weapons Guy's design, then a primary heavy shotgun is probably a bust.

Has anyone come up with a good idea on fixing the manmelter? The only thing I still got is just improve its firing rate. The crossbow should be reloaded even if it's not selected, make it more of a "Whip out, shoot, and get back to healing" weapon without having to worry when there's a scout charging towards you and you get caught reloading :v: I would bring up fixing the natascha, but I can't help but feel the TF2 team want people to forget about that gun. Also regarding the disciplinary action, I LOVE its absurd reach to death, but I just wish they'd apply that extended reach to boosting teammates as well. However I worry that if the TF2 team realizes the reach on that thing is screwy for attacking enemies they may remove it and just have the boosted reach apply ONLY to teammates. I don't want that

The Disciplinary Action is not a Sniper Rifle. It should not be able to kill me from across the 2fort bridge. Fuck your extended range bullshit.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;41729718]The Disciplinary Action is not a Sniper Rifle. It should not be able to kill me from across the 2fort bridge. Fuck your extended range bullshit.[/QUOTE] I feel the range makes it valid, it does reduced damage, granted it crits like a monster but I have nothing against being on the receiving end of a whip, most soldiers rarely use melee nowadays anyways And boy you seem oddly surly tonight Psychopath.

Dude's just living up to his name.

wait, the loose cannon is bad? :( but its so fun and getting donks with it is ez