The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

I'm actually fine with mini sentries now that you can destroy them fairly reliably before they finish building. But that's just me.

[QUOTE=Bynine;41848863]I'm actually fine with mini sentries now that you can destroy them fairly reliably before they finish building. But that's just me.[/QUOTE] It still has [URL="steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=169451223"]completely ridiculous range[/URL] though

[QUOTE=RandomGamer342;41851274]It still has [URL="https://www.dropbox.com/s/qmg7qq2zyypq3js/Mod%20Shitlist%20V1.1%20-%20A%20Sound%20Comparison.rar?m"]completely ridiculous range[/URL] though[/QUOTE] Dunno if that's the right link, it's to a purposely crappy sound mod.

[QUOTE=Dr. Doughnut;41856219]Dunno if that's the right link, it's to a purposely crappy sound mod.[/QUOTE] fuck [editline]i[/editline] There. That's what I get for posting that late :suicide:

What if there was a way to walk up to the minisentry and destroy it without it ever hurting you, but in such a way that it could still catch you off guard if you blindly walk into it's territory. Such as, it would never hurt crouching players. Or if there were holes in it's targetting system, like it wouldn't see things directly behind it, or above it. You'd still be easy to kill for anyone else, and it'd also bring some strategy into minisentry positioning for the engineers, and it wouldn't completely shut down roaming classes.

[QUOTE=Drury;41857366]What if there was a way to walk up to the minisentry and destroy it without it ever hurting you, but in such a way that it could still catch you off guard if you blindly walk into it's territory. [B]Such as, it would never hurt crouching players.[/B] Or if there were holes in it's targetting system, like it wouldn't see things directly behind it, or above it. You'd still be easy to kill for anyone else, and it'd also bring some strategy into minisentry positioning for the engineers, and it wouldn't completely shut down roaming classes.[/QUOTE] The salvation of spycrabs?

Minisentries in the open are asking for a sniper to blow them off with a single shot. And, speaking of the Sniper, other than the Huntsman and the Sleeper, his other unlockable primaries feel like they don't really add much depth to the class. The Machina gets a pass, as it allow you to damage more than a target per shot at, the cost of everybody knowing from where you are shooting (still, the increased damage on full charge is iffy; and the fact that every pr0-snip4h seems to use it despite being as subtle as using a chainsaw to backstab). The Bargain, well, losing accumulated heads on miss is a bit too harsh of a penalty, and the Heatmaker starts as a disadvantage, then, after killing or assisting, it makes you a sitting duck and tells the whole enemy team where you are shooting from to allo you to shoot faster and charge as fast as the sleeper. So yeah, no depth. The huntsman is a fucking bow with arrows, and the sleeper changes the focus into weakening opponents and doing strong bodyshots faster. The others I fail to see any depth to them, any creative usage, apart of the Machina occasionaly killing Demos and Pyros with a bodyshot, or shooting through people.

It occurs to me that all the Sniper's primaries basically limit him. No headshot capabilities for the Sleeper, no noscopes for the Machina, and penalties for bodyshots on the Heatmaker and Bargain. And, like you said, you don't use them much differently at all from stock, besides having less options.

The only one that plays differently is the Sleeper, the others, all in all, are the vanilla with limitations and situational upsides. The Sleeper at least forces you to play differently, landing charged bodyshots in important targets then proceeding to finish them. Spash on headshot would be neat, as would be putting off fires on teammate hit (still, sniper shots go straight through teammates, and, seeing how neat is to score blindshots through your Heavy, this will end up with bugs). Anyway, how about those: Sleeper: -No crits on headshot +On headshot: Jarate splash centered on target +25% charge rate +While active: +20% bullet resistance (removed from the Danger Shield) Bargain: -25 max HP -20% charge rate -Zoom is 50% less effective (seriously, that scope looks pretty sucky) +Each headshot kill gives +10 charge (capping at 200%, at 14 headshot kills) and +15 max health (capping at 160) ·On headshot kill: Decapitate opponent. Heatmaker: -20% damage penalty on bodyshots. +Silent killer: On headshot kill, victim doesn't scream and enemy team is not notified via killfeed. +Build Focus on kills and assists. Scope when fully charged to enter focus mode: +25% faster charge rate when focused. +No need to unscope between shots.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41861026]Heatmaker: -20% damage penalty on bodyshots. +Silent killer: On headshot kill, victim doesn't scream and enemy team is not notified via killfeed. +Build Focus on kills and assists. Scope when fully charged to enter focus mode: +25% faster charge rate when focused. +No need to unscope between shots.[/QUOTE] I don't really see anything wrong with the Heatmaker as it is. And while silent killer would be kinda nice for it, I really don't like the idea of Focus activating on scope rather than on fire. Activating on scope would just waste it most of the time, I'd rather be able to wait until it'll actually be useful.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41861026]The only one that plays differently is the Sleeper, the others, all in all, are the vanilla with limitations and situational upsides. The Sleeper at least forces you to play differently, landing charged bodyshots in important targets then proceeding to finish them. Spash on headshot would be neat, as would be putting off fires on teammate hit (still, sniper shots go straight through teammates, and, seeing how neat is to score blindshots through your Heavy, this will end up with bugs). Anyway, how about those: Sleeper: -No crits on headshot +On headshot: Jarate splash centered on target +25% charge rate +While active: +20% bullet resistance (removed from the Danger Shield) Bargain: -25 max HP -20% charge rate -Zoom is 50% less effective (seriously, that scope looks pretty sucky) +Each headshot kill gives +10 charge (capping at 200%, at 14 headshot kills) and +15 max health (capping at 160) ·On headshot kill: Decapitate opponent. Heatmaker: -20% damage penalty on bodyshots. +Silent killer: On headshot kill, victim doesn't scream and enemy team is not notified via killfeed. +Build Focus on kills and assists. Scope when fully charged to enter focus mode: +25% faster charge rate when focused. +No need to unscope between shots.[/QUOTE] What do you mean by "scope is 50% less effective"?

[QUOTE=R.M.T.B.;41861519]What do you mean by "scope is 50% less effective"?[/QUOTE] zoom scope is half bigger?

[QUOTE=Zannabluke;41861544]zoom scope is half bigger?[/QUOTE] what

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;41862021]what[/QUOTE] He means the scope only zooms in half as far as other rifles.

All classes share the same base melee damage, witch exception of scout and spy: the last one spy is because he have special melees mechanics that made it he's "primary weapon", and the scout because he is fast so he can bludgeon your face and retreat before you can hit him back, since the scape plan gives you almost scout speed, why not give it bat mechanics ? now it's a useless "scape tool" because now is a "die faster tool". [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/0/0c/Item_icon_Escape_Plan.png/100px-Item_icon_Escape_Plan.png?t=20120630233518[/IMG] -Movement speed increase as user's remaining health decreases. -35 Base damage. -0,5 Hit/Second Attack interval (bat). or -0.65 Hit/Second Attack interval (atomizer). -Blocks healing and ÜberCharges by any friendly Medics and suppresses the Medic call effect while active.

-50% damage penalty. There, balanced Escape Plan. Heck, with the mark for death I'd say the old Equalizer would had been balanced; it was an awesomely fun weapon if you decided to fight rather than run away, and the MfD would make it so you'd be killed by stray fire due to the lack of falloff.

Current escape plan is balanced fine. It's now a sidegrade to the other viable melee weapons soldier has. Market Gardener has its niche of people good at rocket jumping to achieve a higher damage output on a single target. Pain Train still let's you have 2x cap speed. Combined with rocket jumping, you can easily get behind the enemy and backcap. Disciplinary Action allows you to whip your team out to the fight and have more firepower on your side. Escape plan allows for you to take a high-risk, high-reward style where you can make yourself incredibly vulnerable and have a better chance at escaping and getting a second chance in return. Half-zatoichi and the equalizer fall into the category of unbalanced at this point. The problem is that you have no way to get close enough to use them (in the equalizer's case, RJing at an enemy to use it effectively would better be done by using the market gardener). The zatoichi at least has a higher reward for the very-high-risk of using it compared to the equalizer. There's also the fact that it works perfectly fine on demoman, better working on it's high-risk since stock demo has no good close combat weapons. Without the speed boost that it had before, the equalizer has nothing going for it other than the fact that it isn't the shovel. [sp]and don't even tell me to balance around the stock shovel. It's the same reason as balancing the amputator around the stock bonesaw. It doesn't work because the stock melee weapons, sans spy and engi, suck.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41861026]The only one that plays differently is the Sleeper, the others, all in all, are the vanilla with limitations and situational upsides. The Sleeper at least forces you to play differently, landing charged bodyshots in important targets then proceeding to finish them. Spash on headshot would be neat, as would be putting off fires on teammate hit (still, sniper shots go straight through teammates, and, seeing how neat is to score blindshots through your Heavy, this will end up with bugs). Anyway, how about those: Sleeper: -No crits on headshot +On headshot: Jarate splash centered on target +25% charge rate +While active: +20% bullet resistance (removed from the Danger Shield) Bargain: -25 max HP -20% charge rate -Zoom is 50% less effective (seriously, that scope looks pretty sucky) +Each headshot kill gives +10 charge (capping at 200%, at 14 headshot kills) and +15 max health (capping at 160) ·On headshot kill: Decapitate opponent. Heatmaker: -20% damage penalty on bodyshots. +Silent killer: On headshot kill, victim doesn't scream and enemy team is not notified via killfeed. +Build Focus on kills and assists. Scope when fully charged to enter focus mode: +25% faster charge rate when focused. +No need to unscope between shots.[/QUOTE] Just because the scope looks shitty doesn't mean that it actually should be. Things like that shouldn't determine game stats, that's stupid.

Yeah, just like the Soda Popper didn't get minicrits due to having Crit-a-cola strapped to the barrel. Oh wait, it does.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41865739]Yeah, just like the Soda Popper didn't get minicrits due to having Crit-a-cola strapped to the barrel. Oh wait, it does.[/QUOTE] Well that's a silly argument, it's not like BANG! had to put Crit-a-Cola on the model.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41865739]Yeah, just like the Soda Popper didn't get minicrits due to having Crit-a-cola strapped to the barrel. Oh wait, it does.[/QUOTE] Or like how the targe is a wooden shield and doesn't make you immune to afterburn [I]Oh wait[/I]

Mad milk: - Cannot extinguish (That's not THAT much milk) Buff Banner - Cannot buff (Seriously! It's just a horn!) Backburner -Cannot Backburn (seriously all it is is a flamethrower with a mask on it) + Same airblast as stock Eyelander: - Heads do not give health or speed (Thy're just heads, dude.) Sandvich: -Doesn't heal (It's not THAT tasty) etc... You don't play TF2 for logic, remember you're playing a game with 2 teams in bright colors based in the 1960s that have the technology to teleport and fake deaths and the classes just magically clone themselves to have 3 on each team. TF2 is no way realistic, so we can have little glasses that work like scopes, or cans of soda taped to guns change the weapon entirely.

[QUOTE=Fapplejack;41868006]Mad milk: - Cannot extinguish (That's not THAT much milk) Buff Banner - Cannot buff (Seriously! It's just a horn!) Backburner -Cannot Backburn (seriously all it is is a flamethrower with a mask on it) + Same airblast as stock Eyelander: - Heads do not give health or speed (Thy're just heads, dude.) Sandvich: -Doesn't heal (It's not THAT tasty) etc... You don't play TF2 for logic, remember you're playing a game with 2 teams in bright colors based in the 1960s that have the technology to teleport and fake deaths and the classes just magically clone themselves to have 3 on each team. TF2 is no way realistic, so we can have little glasses that work like scopes, or cans of soda taped to guns change the weapon entirely.[/QUOTE] I actually like coming up with reasons why TF2 weapons have certain stats like: - The Atomizer's lower center is hallow, making the Scout be able to strain himself and complete a triple jump. Also why it has lower damage and swing speed. It doesn't have as much mass and it's more top heavy. - The Tomislav is able to spin up faster because it is lightweight, but it's firing speed is lower due to the small chamber, less bullets out at a time = slower firing speed - The Gunslinger gives you extra health because the hand it was replaced with was heavily infected, give Dell large amounts of pain to the point where his physical condition was affected. It crits after three consecutive hits because it has a chip where it analyzes where an enemies weakpoint is the more it hits it, and after the second time, it discovers it. One flaw though, it isn't compatible with a regular sentry, and requires a workaround. I could go on, these are pretty fun, but you get the point.

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;41866548]Well that's a silly argument, it's not like BANG! had to put Crit-a-Cola on the model.[/QUOTE] But having that in the model influenced the stats. And, in any case, it would give a new breath to the weapon, which was what I was going for anyway. Also, this "scope": [url]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/File:Bazaar_Bargain_1st_person.png[/url] working the same way as those: [url]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/File:Sniper_Rifle_1st_person.png[/url] [url]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/File:Sydney_Sleeper_1st_person.png[/url] [url]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/File:Machina_1st_person.png[/url] [url]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/File:Hitman%27s_Heatmaker_1st_person.png[/url] Well, it makes a good starting point to tweak the weapon.

[QUOTE=lilgamefreek;40765968]Are we still doing axstinguisher suggestions? [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/c9/Item_icon_Axtinguisher.png/100px-Item_icon_Axtinguisher.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] 100% critical hit vs burning players [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] 30% damage penalty [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] No random critical hits Wait what? Doesn't this just diminish the one downside of the axstinguisher? No it doesn't. The key wording is a flat "30% damage penalty" This means that its base damage is: [code]65*.7 = 45.5 base damage[/code] [B]So on a crit[/B], it will do: [code]45.5 * 3 = 136.5 crit damage[/code] The key difference was that the axstinguisher has 65 base damage, the default melee damage. However, it suffers 50% damage penalty against non burning players, a deduction that is calculated on hit rather than treated as the base damage. Isn't it strange that the axstinguisher has always had the same base damage as the axe? But the only time you would ever see it do base damage is when it suffer's a specific 50% damage penalty. This means that it's crits deal 600% more damage rather than 300% more damage than "normal". If it were to deal 136.5 crit damage, it would be good but not TOO good. We're still one shotting light classes (scout, spy, engineer, and sniper). Scout's have a constant movement advantage that should allowed skilled players to get away from an axe puff+sting. Spy's, if caught in a puff and sting, just means they die and respawn faster than if they were caught by someone else. Engineer's have less to worry about a puff and sting unless their nest is down (and if they have a gunslinger, they don't out right die!), and snipers falling to puff and sting is hilarious and get a similar bonus as the spy. In that situation, it USUALLY just means you're dieing and respawning a bit faster. MEDICS take two hits, or some sustained flamethrower damage first. That plus a minor health regen (one that looks even more effective compared to the degreaser's afterburn) means if they can escape the first swing with the aid of their patient or their own wiles, they have more time to seek a health kit than it seem. Soldier's and Demomen die in two hits as well, giving them time to fight back and then seek help with their remaining health. Heavies take three hits, meaning they have even more time to react and fight back than before. This means all the classes that "should" have a fighting chance against a surprise pyro have a small window after the first hit to do so. And finally, this debuff keeps the axestinguisher good, but it doesn't make it a no-brainer. One-shotting light classes is great. Taking off an big chunk of any other class's health in one burst is good too. But they aren't THAT great. With stats like these, I would still switch to a different melee when the enemy team is just working together too well. Before, a pyro might get a lucky swipe in on a group of enemies after igniting them, and he still would in this case. However if that swipe lands, you're either killing a light class or making a dent that will just be repaired by the medic after half the team focuses fire on you. The axstinguisher becomes a melee more inclined to cleanly finishing 1-1's rather than deciding 1-1's and allowing pyro's to get one last kill in on a group. tl;dr The change does a few things: 1.) Brings the axstinguisher in line with overall game logic. Crits do 300% damage of what they would "normally" do. 2.) Allow's the classes you expect to be able to fight back, fight back. 3.) Open's up space for other pyro melees to be considered more often.[/QUOTE] I hope these stats get added

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;41870905]But having that in the model influenced the stats. And, in any case, it would give a new breath to the weapon, which was what I was going for anyway. Also, this "scope": [url]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/File:Bazaar_Bargain_1st_person.png[/url] working the same way as those: [url]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/File:Sniper_Rifle_1st_person.png[/url] [url]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/File:Sydney_Sleeper_1st_person.png[/url] [url]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/File:Machina_1st_person.png[/url] [url]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/File:Hitman%27s_Heatmaker_1st_person.png[/url] Well, it makes a good starting point to tweak the weapon.[/QUOTE] Why does the Bazaar Baargin need to be changed though? It does what it's supposed to do, giving it a gimmicky downside isn't helping anything. Again, the downside is stupid and saying "OMFG WEPON SHUD WORK EXACTLY HOW IT LUKS".

[QUOTE=R.M.T.B.;41870987]I hope these stats get added[/QUOTE] I hope one day player skill rises enough to recognize axt is not a problem.

[QUOTE=Wolf532;41871462]Why does the Bazaar Baargin need to be changed though? It does what it's supposed to do, giving it a gimmicky downside isn't helping anything. Again, the downside is stupid and saying "OMFG WEPON SHUD WORK EXACTLY HOW IT LUKS".[/QUOTE] It is a trivial change from the vanilla primary. Changing your primary is supposed to have important effects in the way you play. Ergo, weapon fixing. I was taking the aspect of the weapon as a way to change it (as, if you read it, it'd end up as a quite strong weapon upon several headshots, as you wouldn't be quickshotted, and you'd be charging up fast enough to consistently do 100+ bodyshots and 300+ headshots). But if your conclusion of all of that is the thing you posted, well, congratulations, you don't know how to make arguments.

Has this already been mentioned? Sydney sleeper +25% charge rate Headshots dealt and received are mini crits Jarate applied for 4 seconds Darwin's danger shield +25 health (Stats it had before) That doesn't make the sleeper OP does it?

I think the Soda Popper's hype should be affected by what drink you have. Bonk makes you receive less damage or moves faster (Bonk gives invuln because you move too fast according to its desc) Crit-a-cola stays as how the popper is now Milk is health on hit or health on kill Having no drink equipped would have yield no bonus on the hype fill