The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

Discussion is directed at PBP's tacked on fire weakness, so the above scenario just means a scout using the PBP is still at an advantage than one not using it. PBP's fire weakness makes the scout more vunerable to the 1.) flamethrowers 2.) flareguns, flaming arrows 3.) cowmangler's and huolong-heater's secondaries. Scout's innate movement abilities makes staying out of a flamethrower's range relatively easy. It's not just a matter of running out of the pyro's range. It's the ability to decide when and how to engage enemy pyros so that you never fall in their flamethrower's range to begin with. The same movement abilities means the scout is not only the best at dodging enemy projectiles (flares), but also ensures that in situations where he is hit (by a low damage projectile), he has the speed to get to cover before he can be hit by a second one and the speed to reach the nearest medkit. The scout is very proficient at avoiding fire-damage from the other sources, but as none of them are weapons tied to the pyro class, they are outside the scope of this pyro discussion. My argument is simply that of all classes, the scout is probably the hardest class for a pyro to deal with. Their movement abilities make it easier for scouts to disengage pyros successfully when things don't go their way and make it nearly impossible for pyros to disengage scouts when the roles are reversed. Scout's hitscan weapons not only do a lot of damage but are impossible for pyros to reflect. Of all classes that have shotguns, the pyro is the worst equipped to handle scouts with it (engie-sentry, soldier&heavy-more health). All the PBP's weakness does when tipping class balance is turn a scout's bad-luck to worse-luck. Scouts should have little difficulty with pyros, even when equipped with the PBP. Note, I am not arguing that the PBP is OP or needs tweaking. Merely that its 50% fire vulnerability isn't a significant downside due to scouts being so good at avoiding getting lit on fire already. tl;dr OceanGovernor is right and scouts can run in, poop all over a pyro, and run out.

[QUOTE=Arthamus;42098634]that works out fine until you run into a pyro that uses his shotgun[/QUOTE] Agreed. The scattergun is also most effective when inside the flamethrower's range. Otherwise you're gonna be dishing out 20-30ish damage per scattergun shot.

[QUOTE=Arthamus;42098634]that works out fine until you run into a pyro that uses his shotgun[/QUOTE] Sure but if you pull out the shotty the scout will use his increased health from the PBPP, higher ramp-up and higher speed/mobility to get in and wreck you. Unless you run degreaser-shotty scout is one of the toughest matchups for pyros so slapping the fire damage vulnerability is a irrelevant downside.

[QUOTE=OceanGovernor;42099890]Sure but if you pull out the shotty the scout will use his increased health from the PBPP, higher ramp-up and higher speed/mobility to get in and wreck you. Unless you run degreaser-shotty scout is one of the toughest matchups for pyros so slapping the fire damage vulnerability is a irrelevant downside.[/QUOTE] I usually don't have trouble with scouts though

[QUOTE=Arthamus;42100042]I usually don't have trouble with scouts though[/QUOTE] It could be you just haven't fought tougher scouts, or you are simply very good with a shotgun. A tough paper can still be an average scissor.

[QUOTE=OceanGovernor;42100181]It could be you just haven't fought tougher scouts, or you are simply very good with a shotgun. A tough paper can still be an average scissor.[/QUOTE] that's why I said usually

[QUOTE=Mr. Jelly;42083029][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/3/34/Item_icon_Reserve_Shooter.png/100px-Item_icon_Reserve_Shooter.png?t=20120630233816[/IMG] [B]Rasarve Shutter[/B] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG][U]+35%[/U] faster weapon switch speed [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG]Mini-crits airborne targets for 3 seconds after switch [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG]-50% clip size [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG][U]Unaffected by other weapons' switch speed bonuses[/U] Buff for Soldiers and Flamethrower/BB/Phlog (why would you even) using Pyros Nerf for Degreaser using Pyros[/QUOTE] I think in addition to this, the weapon should only minicrit targets launched airborne by knockback of any sort (including airblast). So you don't get minicrit for jumping over obstacles while retreating or such.

I don't know if this is a dumb or a good idea so humor me: What if the Degreaser was balanced by one of the following ways: A. 40% Faster weapon switching time (Decrased from 65% faster switch speed; using the Degreaser and Reserve would get switch speeds just slightly quicker than the original/individual Degreaser Speed.) B. Causes melee weapons to mini crit whenever they would crit and 40% Faster weapon switching time. (Yes, I am aware having a weapon of one slot affecting other weapon slots isn't entirely good, but it would at least solve the issue of Degreaser/Axtinguishers by nerfing the problematic Degreaser and not the Axtinguisher.) C. Causes all weapons to mini crit whenever they would crit. (Same mentality as above while also focusing on the alternate cop out of using Flares for quick crits.)

The only one I like is the first because the others are clearly only there because of the Axtinguisher. It's like when people come up with ideas with Pyro that have him spray water just so the Neon Annihilator can be good. You don't balance things with unlocks. Oh wait, Valve already did that to Pyro.

I definitely admit to that, but as many always say the Deg/Ax combo is quite destructive so I felt that this idea was an exception to the usually poor idea of implementing stupid gimmicks just to buff/nerf any other individual weapon. Edit: Again, not saying balancing weapons around unlocks is good in most curcumstances but Valve technically did that for Bushwhacka with Jarate right?

[QUOTE=Drury;42100598]I think in addition to this, the weapon should only minicrit targets launched airborne by knockback of any sort (including airblast). So you don't get minicrit for jumping over obstacles while retreating or such.[/QUOTE] What about that, but also the 3 second limit is lifted?

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;42101231]The only one I like is the first because the others are clearly only there because of the Axtinguisher. It's like when people come up with ideas with Pyro that have him spray water just so the Neon Annihilator can be good. You don't balance things with unlocks. Oh wait, Valve already did that to Pyro.[/QUOTE] I think the best thing they can do now is get rid of aim-assisted crit instakills for pyro and look for alternative ways to buff the class. Yeah, it works and arguably is balanced and fair, as pyro is a short range class and all, it's just about everything that is not fun to play against combined.

The primary reason I play Pyro is because there is a wide range of support abilities I can use (reflecting, airblast/extinguish, spychecking) while still being able to roam freely (gas jockey/powerjack). Reflecting mainly though since it's pretty fun and has that satisfying feeling when it nets you a kill or more. Like when you backstab or headshot someone. I know some people might say not to worry, but the outcry for a Pyro rework probably will entice Valve to do something eventually. Is the general consensus behind the Pyro rework that the class relies far too much on unlocks? Or is it the flamethrower utilities and the deg/axe combo? Also, what do you guys think of the current gas jockey loadout? Overpowered? Not balanced correctly? Does the playstyle it encourages suit the Pyro or veer him away from what the class 'should' be?

[QUOTE=Arthamus;42101788]The primary reason I play Pyro is because there is a wide range of support abilities I can use (reflecting, airblast/extinguish, spychecking) while still being able to roam freely (gas jockey/powerjack). Reflecting mainly though since it's pretty fun and has that satisfying feeling when it nets you a kill or more. Like when you backstab or headshot someone. I know some people might say not to worry, but the outcry for a Pyro rework probably will entice Valve to do something eventually. Is the general consensus behind the Pyro rework that the class relies far too much on unlocks? Or is it the flamethrower utilities and the deg/axe combo? Also, what do you guys think of the current gas jockey loadout? Overpowered? Not balanced correctly? Does the playstyle it encourages suit the Pyro or veer him away from what the class 'should' be?[/QUOTE] The pyro in itself is a broken class because his main gimmick has a very low skill floor and a very low skill ceiling, meaning anyone can play it somewhat effectively and the point where you're at your best isn't all that effective compared to other classes(with the heavy+medic outdamaging him in DPS by twice the damage per second at point blank range) Instead of remaking the flamethrower mechanic, valve tried fixing this with unlocks and support features. Stuff like the airblast fixed pyro being useless in most cases by making him able to support the team and control enemy movement. Stuff like the backburner gave him more skill reward(eventually), but without really adding anything new to the formula. They then continued adding unlocks trying to balance the class, like the axtinguisher, homewrecker, degreaser, powerjack, etc. The issue is that attempting to balance by adding progressively better unlocks becomes a terrible idea once two of these begin synergising, with the degreaser completely breaking pyro even worse He goes from a "decent class at low skill levels, good at higher" to a class that becomes good regardless of how terrible you are. The combo removed the requirement of some aim that the flamethrower required to be truly effective, meaning anyone with the ability to successfully press M1+M2+2/3+M1 could reach pyro's skill ceiling and be on maximum effectiveness if they decided to use the axtinguisher/flaregun, or be ready for any situation without planning with simply the degreaser The issue isn't that it's necessarily overpowered and capable of wrecking teams - it's just that pyro's broken from the core and the degreaser breaks it even further. Valve's design philosophy is that player skill and tactics should be rewarded, while unlocks can veer the result of an evenly matched fight. For pyro, the first two were already very low, with the degreaser removing the first two and making everything hinge on the last one. This is wrong and bad, but valve will probably not attempt to fix pyro to avoid pissing off players. To illustrate my point, have a graph [sp]that i drew up in a couple of minutes that isn't 100% accurate please don't kill me for inaccuracy it shows my point well enough[/sp] [IMG]http://puu.sh/4kPhy.png[/IMG] Sniper is a class that's completely useless if you have issues hitting the broad side of a barn door. However, the higher your skill becomes, the more you're rewarded - hypothetically, if you're good enough to never miss a headshot, you can deal 160~ damage almost instantly. Soldier is a class that splash damage and high health is possible to deal damage with even with terrible aim, but it's not going to be hard to shut you down. The amount of damage you can deal with soldier increases a lot as you learn to rocketjump, predict shots, juggle, airstrafe, hit airshots, etc. This is the same for most classes, all rewarding aim and technique/knowledge differently. Pyro breaks this formula by relying on shoddy particle physics on a weapon that doesn't need aim to deal [I]decent[/I] damage. Even the lowest of the low can light someone on fire with the simple act of W+M1, and it should do enough damage to kill a panicking player or someone that's wounded. At higher skill levels you can ambush, support and track with the particles, leading to you having a good DPS. This is still limited because of the flamethrower having terrible DPS compared to other weapons like the sniper, rocket/grenade launcher, minigun, syringe gun, etc, making being good at pyro a lot worse than being good at other classes. Pyro simply doesn't have the possibility to be completely devastating, especially once his tactics stop working against higher level players. Then, you add the degreaser to the picture, which removes the last part that made a difference on the pyro's and enemy's skill, by letting you react to any situation without planning and deal the same or more DPS than the flamethrower without any of the effort involved. It makes it so that all you need to do is be capable of hitting an enemy following the exact same predictable trajectory(due to the way airblast works), so anyone with any kind of remote knowledge of what they're doing are capable of getting pyro's maximum combat effectiveness. Essentially, all you have to do is be capable of litting someone on fire and then hitting them with a melee for max damage. Mind you, this is still below the effectiveness possible with other classes, but at low player skill it's better than all the alternatives, maybe short of heavy. So why isn't the heavy broken like the pyro? I mean, he's gotten twice as much DPS and aim isn't [I]that[/I] important, so why is it fine for a heavy to do this? Simple, heavy has counters. Heavy is slow, has a firing delay allowing you to escape or fight, and there are tons of classes designed to kill him. Pyro doesn't have any hard counters, short of a level 3 sentry preventing him from getting into effective range, and once he is, there's very little that the target's skill can do to help. You almost can't escape a flame particle, and once you're in the air by an airblast you need to be far above pyro's skill ceiling to actually beat him. [B][U]tldr;[/U][/B] pyro is too good for low skill players, too bad for high skill players, there's very little an enemy can do compared to other classes to fight him and his unlocks make all these problems worse by tenfold Make the flamethrower and airblast more based on user skill like most other weapons in the game, remove the degreaser or (more realistically) redesign pyro/it to not make every problem with pyro worse. There, we've fixed it.

I don't know. It sounds wrong to change the PBPP just based on competitive play. It's my favorite weapon, and it is so much fun on pubs. :( But if you want to nerf it, I think it can be done is the damage or the clip size. (I only use it for the passive bonuses :B)

[QUOTE=ScarfaceCrow;42088766]How do you guys feel about the Pretty Boy Pocket Pistol ? I don't mind the health bonus, it's useful for the scouts, but why immunity to fall damage ? In highlander play or 6's, I do often kill scouts with fall damage as soldier by juggling, this feature should be part of Baby face blaster, not pocket pistol, if you can't loose your boost by jumping, but I think that as an available perk for scouts for free use broken as: reloadless soldiers and demos, spiningless heavies, spies that can attack cloaked, instant buildings for engy, ops, I should stop now.[/QUOTE] oddly enough the only time I use the PBPP is for VS saxton hale

[QUOTE=RandomGamer342;42103620]someonewhoknowswhatiswrongwiththepyro[/QUOTE] I think this graph/post should be kept somewhere for the inevitable axt reworks that will happen in this thread and for people not realizing how limited pyro is in general. Though Id argue against him not having hard counters, bullets hard counter pyros into the ground.

I wondered if there was a sort of balance for the degreaser that allowed it to remain as is mostly, but made it so that it was mainly only effective at pyro's intended range: close So I did some thinking and what if the airblast from the degreaser pushed people further then the other flame throwers? (though maybe not effect uber charged people with the boosted air blast) If it pushed people further then the pyro would have to remain in the area's he was intended for. The axtinguisher combo with it would be useless out in the open and flaregun kills with it would require more skill.

[QUOTE=Chjaren;42106674]I wondered if there was a sort of balance for the degreaser that allowed it to remain as is mostly, but made it so that it was mainly only effective at pyro's intended range: close So I did some thinking and what if the airblast from the degreaser pushed people further then the other flame throwers? (though maybe not effect uber charged people with the boosted air blast) If it pushed people further then the pyro would have to remain in the area's he was intended for. The axtinguisher combo with it would be useless out in the open and flaregun kills with it would require more skill.[/QUOTE] How about making it so enemies can resist out of degreaser's air blast easier? Like how you can with regular knock back.

How to nerf the degreaser: It has a really good upside, so give it a really bad downside. Seriously, the downsides of the degreaser as it is now are negligible. Less damage? Who the heck finishes someone off with the degreaser itself?! Give it some damage vulnerability on wearer, or an airblast that costs more. You will still be able to do the degreaser/flaregun/axtinguisher combo, but this gameplay will be different than the gameplay with the stock FT. You'll get killed more easily, or you won't be able to puff-n-sting that much. Really, just give it a real downside. Of course, I'm having the combo that I've said before in mind. I don't know how it would work with other secondary or melee weapon combinations. Anyway, it's been sometime since I've seen a Pyro that doesn't use this combo...

[QUOTE=Omninerd;42110000]How to nerf the degreaser: It has a really good upside, so give it a really bad downside. Seriously, the downsides of the degreaser as it is now are negligible. Less damage? Who the heck finishes someone off with the degreaser itself?! Give it some damage vulnerability on wearer, or an airblast that costs more. You will still be able to do the degreaser/flaregun/axtinguisher combo, but this gameplay will be different than the gameplay with the stock FT. You'll get killed more easily, or you won't be able to puff-n-sting that much. Really, just give it a real downside. Of course, I'm having the combo that I've said before in mind. I don't know how it would work with other secondary or melee weapon combinations. Anyway, it's been sometime since I've seen a Pyro that doesn't use this combo...[/QUOTE] I'm still alright with the increased airblast cost/cooldown unless you reflect something.

[QUOTE=Omninerd;42110000]How to nerf the degreaser: It has a really good upside, so give it a really bad downside.[/QUOTE] This is not how you balance weapons... Yeah, it has very weak downsides, that's true. But it's main gimmick is still too powerful.

Just lower the weapon switch speed bonus to 35% or something

[QUOTE=Drury;42110568]This is not how you balance weapons... Yeah, it has very weak downsides, that's true. But it's main gimmick is still too powerful.[/QUOTE] Here's a better explanation: A persistent upside warrants a persistent downside. In the case of the Degreaser, it has an upside that is present regardless if you actively are using the Degreaser or not, while its downside is only present when firing the Degreaser itself. A number of weapons actually fail in this regard, as they tend to favor augmenting the player's abilities without actually offering some downside that impacts how cautiously they play.

[QUOTE=Omninerd;42110000]How to nerf the degreaser: It has a really good upside, so give it a really bad downside. Seriously, the downsides of the degreaser as it is now are negligible. Less damage? Who the heck finishes someone off with the degreaser itself?! Give it some damage vulnerability on wearer, or an airblast that costs more. You will still be able to do the degreaser/flaregun/axtinguisher combo, but this gameplay will be different than the gameplay with the stock FT. You'll get killed more easily, or you won't be able to puff-n-sting that much. Really, just give it a real downside. Of course, I'm having the combo that I've said before in mind. I don't know how it would work with other secondary or melee weapon combinations. Anyway, it's been sometime since I've seen a Pyro that doesn't use this combo...[/QUOTE] Puff n sting stops being effective once players reach about mid skill level, any pyro above that relies on secondary play and airblast instead of a melee. You would be ruining it for most skill levels to compensate players who think the phlog is op. Rework the stock before working on unlocks, otherwise we end up with more mediocre primaries for pyro.

To stop talking about the degreaser for a bit, how about minisentries? I was playing in a pub earlier on upward, an offensive engie set up a minisentry at their spawn, pretty much denying me (a scout) from doing anything with little to no effort or thinking on the engineers part. "Okay, my team can take it out for me and I can get back to doing work." It goes down, I try and go in but guess what! Mr. I have a fucking gunslinger runs in and puts one back up immediantly, preventing me from doing anything AGAIN. Does no one have a problem with that? That it's THAT easy to deny a scout from doing his job? Anyway, what I'm thinking is, besides nerfing their stupidly long range, how about a cooldown timer between placing minisentries? A player has to wait a few seconds to respawn, and a minisentry is basically another player on the field that can provide STUPIDLY good area denial and completely shutdown a few classes with absolutely no effort, resources (seriously, 100 metal is nothing), or time put into it. Why shouldn't it have to respawn too? Scouts then can actually have a chance at fighting the enemy team and getting picks for at least a small amount of time, and it requires more thinking and skill on the Engineer's part to have good positioning for his minisentry. One of the biggest downsides to a sentry in my opinion is once it goes down, it stays down. There, the area denial is gone, the scouts can move in and do work. Minisentries don't have the downside at all. If the cooldown timer was implemented, It'd have one of the downsides of a regular sentry, but still most of the upsides of a minisentry.

Am I the only one who thinks you shouldn't be able to pick up metal with the dead ringer?

Reduced range and health down to 90 (so a rocket outright destroys them). Range is what makes Minis so frustrating to fight against, if their area denial is nerfed they become far more tolerable; after all they are frail.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;42122799]Reduced range and health down to 90 (so a rocket outright destroys them). Range is what makes Minis so frustrating to fight against, if their area denial is nerfed they become far more tolerable; after all they are frail.[/QUOTE] First things first, make the hitbox actually consistent with the size of the sentry

[QUOTE=Wolf532;42121014]To stop talking about the degreaser for a bit, how about minisentries? I was playing in a pub earlier on upward, an offensive engie set up a minisentry at their spawn, pretty much denying me (a scout) from doing anything with little to no effort or thinking on the engineers part. "Okay, my team can take it out for me and I can get back to doing work." It goes down, I try and go in but guess what! Mr. I have a fucking gunslinger runs in and puts one back up immediantly, preventing me from doing anything AGAIN. Does no one have a problem with that? That it's THAT easy to deny a scout from doing his job? Anyway, what I'm thinking is, besides nerfing their stupidly long range, how about a cooldown timer between placing minisentries? A player has to wait a few seconds to respawn, and a minisentry is basically another player on the field that can provide STUPIDLY good area denial and completely shutdown a few classes with absolutely no effort, resources (seriously, 100 metal is nothing), or time put into it. Why shouldn't it have to respawn too? Scouts then can actually have a chance at fighting the enemy team and getting picks for at least a small amount of time, and it requires more thinking and skill on the Engineer's part to have good positioning for his minisentry. One of the biggest downsides to a sentry in my opinion is once it goes down, it stays down. There, the area denial is gone, the scouts can move in and do work. Minisentries don't have the downside at all. If the cooldown timer was implemented, It'd have one of the downsides of a regular sentry, but still most of the upsides of a minisentry.[/QUOTE] Id recommend you to go read the last few pages of the "Stuff that annoys you" thread. We had a pretty good discussion of the mini over there without just copy-pasting it over to here.