The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

[QUOTE=OceanGovernor;42123665]Id recommend you to go read the last few pages of the "Stuff that annoys you" thread. We had a pretty good discussion of the mini over there without just copy-pasting it over to here.[/QUOTE] Uhm That "discussion" was me claiming the weapon is broken and you+zannabluke outright ignoring my points, flaming me and blaming every minisentry annoyance on the skill of the players in question It's like a guide on how NOT to discuss weapon balance, why would you refer to it [editline]9th September 2013[/editline] Speaking of the minisentry, does anyone have the ability to take a screenshot of it showing the hitbox? If so, could you post it here so we could [del]spam[/del]notify valve about it?

There were 2 core issues with the Minisentry on launch. Both of these issues relate to the gun's survivability. The first was the gun's lasting-power if placed in panic. A building that's under fire while it's constructing should go down easily, this has always been a core thing about Engineer. The entire philosophy of playing Engineer is to place things in preparation for enemies. This has been addressed however. The second and unaddressed issue is how the gun itself can simply survive through ways that have zero fault on itself, its owner, or the people shooting at it. It's tiny. That's the problem with the mini-sentry, it's too tiny. Plop yourself outside of the gun's range and go to town on it with a shotgun or pistol, it will take forever to go down and then another is pooped out to replace it before you can encroach on its territory to punt the source of them off the map. Do the same with a level 3 and you'll find that you can take it down substantially faster and you're pretty much guaranteed to punt the Engineer before he can set up again unless there's a second one covering him. Bullet spread with distance is what keeps the mini-sentry from dying as quickly as a functional level 1 that's in the same position. I know it's called a mini-sentry, but it could very easily pass having 75% of the size of a level 1 and still be the fast building offensive machine it was intended to be. Plus making it bigger would alleviate the frustration caused when minisentries can see over ledges but can't be shot over those same ledges. Badlands mid window, anyone? There's nothing wrong with the Mini's damage output, health, or even its cost. Its problem is that it's so hard to get rid of when it's haphazardly placed. A badly-placed sentry should be easy to get rid of, that's the current problem with the Mini-sentry.

[QUOTE=RandomGamer342;42124155]Uhm That "discussion" was me claiming the weapon is broken and you+zannabluke outright ignoring my points, flaming me and blaming every minisentry annoyance on the skill of the players in question It's like a guide on how NOT to discuss weapon balance, why would you refer to it [/QUOTE] except that you didn't provide any real points to your claiming but experiences on public servers that may vary, depending on your team, and your gamesense/aiming skills.

[QUOTE=RandomGamer342;42124155]Uhm That "discussion" was me claiming the weapon is broken and you+zannabluke outright ignoring my points, flaming me and blaming every minisentry annoyance on the skill of the players in question It's like a guide on how NOT to discuss weapon balance, why would you refer to it [editline]9th September 2013[/editline] Speaking of the minisentry, does anyone have the ability to take a screenshot of it showing the hitbox? If so, could you post it here so we could [del]spam[/del]notify valve about it?[/QUOTE] No we addressed them, you just kept changing the situations for the engie. Ended up providing plenty of ways to beat the mini with numerous classes and came to the be-all end all for tf2, sometimes your class/loadout just cant do everything.

[QUOTE=Wolf532;42121014]To stop talking about the degreaser for a bit, how about minisentries? I was playing in a pub earlier on upward, an offensive engie set up a minisentry at their spawn, pretty much denying me (a scout) from doing anything with little to no effort or thinking on the engineers part. "Okay, my team can take it out for me and I can get back to doing work." It goes down, I try and go in but guess what! Mr. I have a fucking gunslinger runs in and puts one back up immediantly, preventing me from doing anything AGAIN. Does no one have a problem with that? That it's THAT easy to deny a scout from doing his job? Anyway, what I'm thinking is, besides nerfing their stupidly long range, how about a cooldown timer between placing minisentries? A player has to wait a few seconds to respawn, and a minisentry is basically another player on the field that can provide STUPIDLY good area denial and completely shutdown a few classes with absolutely no effort, resources (seriously, 100 metal is nothing), or time put into it. Why shouldn't it have to respawn too? Scouts then can actually have a chance at fighting the enemy team and getting picks for at least a small amount of time, and it requires more thinking and skill on the Engineer's part to have good positioning for his minisentry. One of the biggest downsides to a sentry in my opinion is once it goes down, it stays down. There, the area denial is gone, the scouts can move in and do work. Minisentries don't have the downside at all. If the cooldown timer was implemented, It'd have one of the downsides of a regular sentry, but still most of the upsides of a minisentry.[/QUOTE] Okay, for one thing sentries are meant to counter Scouts, please change class when your current class is being countered too hard, and for another thing minisentries ain't shit. If you are A) using the scattergun, after the minisentry goes down the first time, get close, shoot the new one twice, then shoot the engineer twice, he will fall over and stop moving. B) if you are not using the scattergun, please use the scattergun. Depending on how good/bad/frontier justice the engineer is you may want to kill him first, there is enough time for both.

IMO the Mini-Sentry would benefit much more from range reduction. I mean think about it, although it is smaller, making it an inferior but cheaper version of the normal sentry also in terms of range makes sense. Now, AFAIK it already has smaller range, but if it was, say, 80% of what it is now or even 75% it'd make minisentries much more tolerable since the smaller size would then get countered. Besides, they're not supposed to tank damage from any distance, rather be small supportive buddies in a dark corner. Great point defense assistance and would still work in moderate area denial, but in open areas they'd be pure cannon fodder like any other sentry, really. More than anything, even the size, I'd like to see their range reduced a bit. 1/4th or, if I may be so bold, 1/3rd.

[QUOTE='[Green];42141127']IMO the Mini-Sentry would benefit much more from range reduction. I mean think about it, although it is smaller, making it an inferior but cheaper version of the normal sentry also in terms of range makes sense. Now, AFAIK it already has smaller range, but if it was, say, 80% of what it is now or even 75% it'd make minisentries much more tolerable since the smaller size would then get countered. Besides, they're not supposed to tank damage from any distance, rather be small supportive buddies in a dark corner. Great point defense assistance and would still work in moderate area denial, but in open areas they'd be pure cannon fodder like any other sentry, really. More than anything, even the size, I'd like to see their range reduced a bit. 1/4th or, if I may be so bold, 1/3rd.[/QUOTE] It's SUPPOSED to have a smaller range, but it broke ever since the MvM update.

[QUOTE=Wolf532;42142619]It's SUPPOSED to have a smaller range, but it broke ever since the MvM update.[/QUOTE] No, it was always broken. The range model that appears when you have the toolbox out is smaller than the range the mini-sentry will shoot at, and that has always been the case. [editline]10th September 2013[/editline] I remember complaints about it right back when the engy update originally hit.

[QUOTE=Mr. Magoolachub;42125112]Okay, for one thing sentries are meant to counter Scouts, please change class when your current class is being countered too hard, and for another thing minisentries ain't shit. If you are A) using the scattergun, after the minisentry goes down the first time, get close, shoot the new one twice, then shoot the engineer twice, he will fall over and stop moving. B) if you are not using the scattergun, please use the scattergun. Depending on how good/bad/frontier justice the engineer is you may want to kill him first, there is enough time for both.[/QUOTE] Of course sentries are meant to counter scouts. The thing is with a minisentry it becomes way too easy to counter them as opposed to a normal sentry. The amount of effort put into a minisentry, whichc counters scouts pretty hard, is nowhere near the amount of effort put into a regular sentry.

[QUOTE=Wolf532;42149482]Of course sentries are meant to counter scouts. The thing is with a minisentry it becomes way too easy to counter them[/QUOTE] Also Pyros, Heavies, Medics...

[QUOTE=Omninerd;42150099]Also Pyros, [B]Heavies[/B], Medics...[/QUOTE] I know most heavies are dumb as a rock but how do you think mini counters heavy? Pyro is the weakest class so everything is worse for him, and medic is support so he should be dying to these things.

You know what weapon do I use the most to take minisentries down? The fucking Bushwacka. Seriously, a heavy is only countered by a minisentry if it has the GRU out and doesn't run for cover. And reducing its range will make Pyros pretty good at taking them out. But, as Minisentries are at the moment, they make dm_hightower unfun (except for the asshole who spams them).

A good engineer that keeps shooting along with his two mini-sentries (assuming that he had 200 metal atm) can kill a Heavy without a Medic pretty easily.

[QUOTE=Omninerd;42152568]A good engineer that keeps shooting along with his two mini-sentries (assuming that he had 200 metal atm) can kill a Heavy without a Medic pretty easily.[/QUOTE] Heavy can kill the engie before his first sentry is even up, killing the sentry then is no problem.

[QUOTE=Lolkork;42153941]Depends on the range and how much cover there is.[/QUOTE] At the farthest range a mini can at least take off a good chunk of the heavy's health, since heavy is shit at distances longer than 30 feet. Heavy's matchup with a mini really depends on the placement. Also if he tries to get close, theres the engie with 3 FJ revenge crits just waiting for him.

Mini is too powerful against roamers (as in, if you're roamer at heart you might as well just leave the server) and barely scratches those other guys who stick together in a bunch with their med. Those guys then think the people complaining about minis are completely out of their mind and this creates these useless arguments. Before you go saying that roamers are useless shits that don't know about teamwork and deserve to be hard-countered, think about those times that enemy kritz demomed got suddenly killed out of nowhere and you won the round.