The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights - Games

[QUOTE=Prollgurke;40762668]Lets try this. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/ca/Item_icon_Gunslinger.png/100px-Item_icon_Gunslinger.png[/IMG] +25 max health on wearer No random crits Replaces Sentry with Mini-Sentry For Mini-Sentries: -100% knockback -65% damage penalty for Mini-Sentries compared to a LVL 1 Sentry (usually -50%) Increases HP during build time beginning with 0 HP (just like normal Sentries). Doesnt drop metal when destroyed Maximum amount of 2 Mini-Sentries per team at once Good or bad idea?[/QUOTE] So you don't want to reward someone who breaks the thing in half with an ammo refill and you want to actively impose a class restriction arbitrarily instead of actually fixing anything. No.

[QUOTE=Prollgurke;40762668]Lets try this. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/ca/Item_icon_Gunslinger.png/100px-Item_icon_Gunslinger.png[/IMG] +25 max health on wearer No random crits Replaces Sentry with Mini-Sentry For Mini-Sentries: -100% knockback -65% damage penalty for Mini-Sentries compared to a LVL 1 Sentry (usually -50%) Increases HP during build time beginning with 0 HP (just like normal Sentries). Doesnt drop metal when destroyed Maximum amount of 2 Mini-Sentries per team at once Good or bad idea?[/QUOTE] Trying too hard. To be honest, all I think it needs is the same collision hull as a normal Sentry. A single Loch-n-Load grenade is enough to destroy it, except the fact that its collision hull is 40% smaller makes it really hard to hit. A bit of bullet spread would possibly make it less annoying at long range too.

[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/4a/Item_icon_Homewrecker.png/100px-Item_icon_Homewrecker.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] Deals double damage against enemy buildings. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] Able to damage Electro Sappers, reducing their effectiveness by 75% [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] 50% less knockback taken from Sentries when held [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] Deals 25% less damage against players. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/e/e9/Item_icon_Neon_Annihilator.png/100px-Item_icon_Neon_Annihilator.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] 100% critical hit vs wet players. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] Able to damage Electro Sappers, reducing their effectiveness by 25% with each hit, up to a maximum of 50% [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] -20% damage penalty vs. players [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] No random critical hits Outright destroying sappers is too much. If the Spy managed to infiltrate and take out the Engineer, that means the Pyro failed at his job of checking for the Spy, and the Engineer failed to be aware of his surroundings. They were both outplayed, they should have to suffer for that. To that end, the Homewrecker and Neon Annihilator now simply reduce how fast the Sapper deals damage to a building. 75% in one hit with the Homewrecker, and 50% with 2 hits from the Neon Annihilator. That way the Sentry still has a chance of being saved, but is still shut down until the Engineer unsaps it.

[QUOTE=DoctorQ;40763417][IMG] Outright destroying sappers is too much. If the Spy managed to infiltrate and take out the Engineer, that means the Pyro failed at his job of checking for the Spy, and the Engineer failed to be aware of his surroundings. They were both outplayed, they should have to suffer for that. To that end, the Homewrecker and Neon Annihilator now simply reduce how fast the Sapper deals damage to a building. 75% in one hit with the Homewrecker, and 50% with 2 hits from the Neon Annihilator. That way the Sentry still has a chance of being saved, but is still shut down until the Engineer unsaps it.[/QUOTE] Yes, take away destroying sappers from a weapon that was made for it. :v:

[QUOTE=DoctorQ;40763417][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/4a/Item_icon_Homewrecker.png/100px-Item_icon_Homewrecker.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] Deals double damage against enemy buildings. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] Able to damage Electro Sappers, reducing their effectiveness by 75% [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] 50% less knockback taken from Sentries when held [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] Deals 25% less damage against players. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/e/e9/Item_icon_Neon_Annihilator.png/100px-Item_icon_Neon_Annihilator.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] 100% critical hit vs wet players. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] Able to damage Electro Sappers, reducing their effectiveness by 25% with each hit, up to a maximum of 50% [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] -20% damage penalty vs. players [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] No random critical hits Outright destroying sappers is too much. If the Spy managed to infiltrate and take out the Engineer, that means the Pyro failed at his job of checking for the Spy, and the Engineer failed to be aware of his surroundings. They were both outplayed, they should have to suffer for that. To that end, the Homewrecker and Neon Annihilator now simply reduce how fast the Sapper deals damage to a building. 75% in one hit with the Homewrecker, and 50% with 2 hits from the Neon Annihilator. That way the Sentry still has a chance of being saved, but is still shut down until the Engineer unsaps it.[/QUOTE] Team work should not be limited. Also it was entirely made TO remove sappers.

[QUOTE=DoctorQ;40763417]Outright destroying sappers is too much. If the Spy managed to infiltrate and take out the Engineer, that means the Pyro failed at his job of checking for the Spy, and the Engineer failed to be aware of his surroundings. They were both outplayed, they should have to suffer for that. To that end, the Homewrecker and Neon Annihilator now simply reduce how fast the Sapper deals damage to a building. 75% in one hit with the Homewrecker, and 50% with 2 hits from the Neon Annihilator. That way the Sentry still has a chance of being saved, but is still shut down until the Engineer unsaps it.[/QUOTE] If they go as far as getting a pybro to keep that nest up, you shouldn't really be able to handle it yourself as a spy, don't you think? Go demo, get a medic to uber you and fuck everything up, teamwork vs teamwork style.

[QUOTE=DoctorQ;40763417][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/4a/Item_icon_Homewrecker.png/100px-Item_icon_Homewrecker.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] Deals double damage against enemy buildings. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] Able to damage Electro Sappers, reducing their effectiveness by 75% [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] 50% less knockback taken from Sentries when held [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] Deals 25% less damage against players. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/e/e9/Item_icon_Neon_Annihilator.png/100px-Item_icon_Neon_Annihilator.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] 100% critical hit vs wet players. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] Able to damage Electro Sappers, reducing their effectiveness by 25% with each hit, up to a maximum of 50% [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] -20% damage penalty vs. players [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] No random critical hits Outright destroying sappers is too much. If the Spy managed to infiltrate and take out the Engineer, that means the Pyro failed at his job of checking for the Spy, and the Engineer failed to be aware of his surroundings. They were both outplayed, they should have to suffer for that. To that end, the Homewrecker and Neon Annihilator now simply reduce how fast the Sapper deals damage to a building. 75% in one hit with the Homewrecker, and 50% with 2 hits from the Neon Annihilator. That way the Sentry still has a chance of being saved, but is still shut down until the Engineer unsaps it.[/QUOTE] The Homewrecker is horrible in general gameplay outside of its situational use and you want to nerf the reason of its entire existance because you hate it when a Pyro destroys your sapper. That's really stupid. If anything it needs a buff concerning knockback, as it's very hard to actually destroy buildings due to sentry knockback. Hell, I'd take an even larger damage penalty on it for that. It's not like I use it to kill people anyways.

[QUOTE=RandomGamer342;40740460]You're telling me that an engineer should be able to shit out level 1 sentries right in front of the face of a scout without the scout being able to do [U][B]ANYTHING ABOUT IT[/B][/U] before it's built and he's 3/4 dead?[/QUOTE] try shooting the engineer

[QUOTE=Judas;40764725]try shooting the engineer[/QUOTE] "but but but the sentry!!!! I HAVE TO KILL IT ;_;"

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;40764051]Yes, take away destroying sappers from a weapon that was made for it. :v:[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Quinnjdq;40764424]Team work should not be limited. Also it was entirely made TO remove sappers.[/QUOTE] But it wasn't made for it. Removing sappers was a feature that was added to it later after it's release. Before it only did double double damage to buildings.

[QUOTE=Judas;40764725]try shooting the engineer[/QUOTE] The mini kills you before you kill the engineer.

[QUOTE=Drury;40765255]The mini kills you before you kill the engineer.[/QUOTE] if you can't deal 150 damage in under 3 seconds as a Scout, you're not playing Scout correctly.

Are we still doing axstinguisher suggestions? [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/c9/Item_icon_Axtinguisher.png/100px-Item_icon_Axtinguisher.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] 100% critical hit vs burning players [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] 30% damage penalty [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] No random critical hits Wait what? Doesn't this just diminish the one downside of the axstinguisher? No it doesn't. The key wording is a flat "30% damage penalty" This means that its base damage is: [code]65*.7 = 45.5 base damage[/code] [B]So on a crit[/B], it will do: [code]45.5 * 3 = 136.5 crit damage[/code] The key difference was that the axstinguisher has 65 base damage, the default melee damage. However, it suffers 50% damage penalty against non burning players, a deduction that is calculated on hit rather than treated as the base damage. Isn't it strange that the axstinguisher has always had the same base damage as the axe? But the only time you would ever see it do base damage is when it suffer's a specific 50% damage penalty. This means that it's crits deal 600% more damage rather than 300% more damage than "normal". If it were to deal 136.5 crit damage, it would be good but not TOO good. We're still one shotting light classes (scout, spy, engineer, and sniper). Scout's have a constant movement advantage that should allowed skilled players to get away from an axe puff+sting. Spy's, if caught in a puff and sting, just means they die and respawn faster than if they were caught by someone else. Engineer's have less to worry about a puff and sting unless their nest is down (and if they have a gunslinger, they don't out right die!), and snipers falling to puff and sting is hilarious and get a similar bonus as the spy. In that situation, it USUALLY just means you're dieing and respawning a bit faster. MEDICS take two hits, or some sustained flamethrower damage first. That plus a minor health regen (one that looks even more effective compared to the degreaser's afterburn) means if they can escape the first swing with the aid of their patient or their own wiles, they have more time to seek a health kit than it seem. Soldier's and Demomen die in two hits as well, giving them time to fight back and then seek help with their remaining health. Heavies take three hits, meaning they have even more time to react and fight back than before. This means all the classes that "should" have a fighting chance against a surprise pyro have a small window after the first hit to do so. And finally, this debuff keeps the axestinguisher good, but it doesn't make it a no-brainer. One-shotting light classes is great. Taking off an big chunk of any other class's health in one burst is good too. But they aren't THAT great. With stats like these, I would still switch to a different melee when the enemy team is just working together too well. Before, a pyro might get a lucky swipe in on a group of enemies after igniting them, and he still would in this case. However if that swipe lands, you're either killing a light class or making a dent that will just be repaired by the medic after half the team focuses fire on you. The axstinguisher becomes a melee more inclined to cleanly finishing 1-1's rather than deciding 1-1's and allowing pyro's to get one last kill in on a group. tl;dr The change does a few things: 1.) Brings the axstinguisher in line with overall game logic. Crits do 300% damage of what they would "normally" do. 2.) Allow's the classes you expect to be able to fight back, fight back. 3.) Open's up space for other pyro melees to be considered more often.

My idea for the Axtinguisher: [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] 100% mini-critical hit vs burning players [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] Extinguishes burning target on hit [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] No random critical hits Sounds good?

[QUOTE=Unisath;40765293]if you can't deal 150 damage in under 3 seconds as a Scout, you're not playing Scout correctly.[/QUOTE] Try it while your screen's shaking like crazy.

[QUOTE=Mario6493;40766035]My idea for the Axtinguisher: [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] 100% mini-critical hit vs burning players [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] Extinguishes burning target on hit [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] No random critical hits Sounds good?[/QUOTE] [del]It one hit kills everybody but the Heavy, this won't help with everything.[/del] I misread, I apologize.

[QUOTE=Mentlegen;40766142]It one hit kills everybody but the Heavy, this won't help with everything.[/QUOTE] He put the mini-crits there, not full crits.

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;40764051]Yes, take away destroying sappers from a weapon that was made for it. :v:[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Quinnjdq;40764424]Team work should not be limited. Also it was entirely made TO remove sappers.[/QUOTE] [quote=Update History] [B]March 18, 2010 Patch (First Community Contribution Update)[/B] -The Homewrecker was added to the game. [B]May 7, 2010 Patch[/B] -The Homewrecker now damages enemy Sappers on friendly buildings. [/quote] The ability to remove sappers was added two months after it was introduced. Likely because Valve suddenly realized how absolutely idiotic it was to have a [i]Melee[/i] weapon be an anti-Sentry weapon. I still stand by my reasoning. Pyro's job should be to counter the Spy [u]before[/u] he can do any damage to the team's assets. If the Spy managed to get in and backstab the Engineer and sap the Sentry even with a Pyro on watch, [b]then the Pyro failed in his job[/b], and the Engineer is also at fault for not protecting his own back and buildings. They should go down. An Engineer should not have almost no punishment for letting himself get killed when he has a defensive emplacement up. And a Pyro should not be able to salvage a failure to perform his duties. To put it into perspective, it would be like the Engineer getting a tool that let him extract Ubercharge from a recently deceased allied Medic who had full charge, and then give it to a Heavy or Demoman. The Medic died. His pocket failed to protect him. His TEAM failed to protect him. [i]Why should they get rewarded for failing.[/i] If you were to take a test, and failed it, do you think that you should be able to get a C for correcting your wrong answers and resubmitting it to the teacher?

[img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/e/e3/Backpack_Machina.png/90px-Backpack_Machina.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]Critical hits deal 15% more damage [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]Critical hits penetrate players [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]Cannot fire unless zoomed [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]Fires tracer rounds Look at how easy it is to completely change the stigma behind using a particular weapon. As an added bonus, mini-crits are still technically considered a type of critical hit. So there's some actual synergy with mini-crit debuffs such as Jarate or buffs like the Buff Banner.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;40767078][img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/e/e3/Backpack_Machina.png/90px-Backpack_Machina.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]Critical hits deal 15% more damage [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]Critical hits penetrate players [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]Cannot fire unless zoomed [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]Fires tracer rounds Look at how easy it is to completely change the stigma behind using a particular weapon. As an added bonus, mini-crits are still technically considered a type of critical hit. So there's some actual synergy with mini-crit debuffs such as Jarate or buffs like the Buff Banner.[/QUOTE] As much as i would love this, it won't ever happen [sp];_;[/sp]

[QUOTE=DoctorQ;40766820]The ability to remove sappers was added two months after it was introduced. Likely because Valve suddenly realized how absolutely idiotic it was to have a [i]Melee[/i] weapon be an anti-Sentry weapon. I still stand by my reasoning. Pyro's job should be to counter the Spy [u]before[/u] he can do any damage to the team's assets. If the Spy managed to get in and backstab the Engineer and sap the Sentry even with a Pyro on watch, [b]then the Pyro failed in his job[/b], and the Engineer is also at fault for not protecting his own back and buildings. They should go down. An Engineer should not have almost no punishment for letting himself get killed when he has a defensive emplacement up. And a Pyro should not be able to salvage a failure to perform his duties. To put it into perspective, it would be like the Engineer getting a tool that let him extract Ubercharge from a recently deceased allied Medic who had full charge, and then give it to a Heavy or Demoman. The Medic died. His pocket failed to protect him. His TEAM failed to protect him. [i]Why should they get rewarded for failing.[/i] If you were to take a test, and failed it, do you think that you should be able to get a C for correcting your wrong answers and resubmitting it to the teacher?[/QUOTE] a pyro's job is to burn shit, not to babysit engineers - he's an offensive class for a reason so i really don't think there's anything wrong with the homewrecker, because there's a very short timeframe between the pyro being able to kill the spy while he's in the middle of sapping and all the buildings blowing up, and if the pyro has the decency to forfeit his axtinguisher and save a building or two then the spy can suck it up and deal with it also what the hell is with that last example a lot of teachers do that because it shows that the student learned the material and that's what the class is about but that's besides the point

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;40767078][img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/e/e3/Backpack_Machina.png/90px-Backpack_Machina.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]Critical hits deal 15% more damage [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]Critical hits penetrate players [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]Cannot fire unless zoomed [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]Fires tracer rounds Look at how easy it is to completely change the stigma behind using a particular weapon. As an added bonus, mini-crits are still technically considered a type of critical hit. So there's some actual synergy with mini-crit debuffs such as Jarate or buffs like the Buff Banner.[/QUOTE] I love my machina, but I never understood the damage bonus thing. It never ever helps.

[QUOTE=Drury;40767185]I love my machina, but I never understood the damage bonus thing. It never ever helps.[/QUOTE] Literally the only time it makes a difference is if you're shooting a fully-overhealed Heavy in the head who has a Vaccinator Medic on his ass (or bodyshotting the Medic instead, but just barely). Otherwise, the damage bonus doesn't really break any thresholds. It doesn't make a difference if you bodyshot someone who's being protected by the Battalion's Backup, it doesn't make much of a dent in a Fists of Steel Heavy, the only player the extra damage actually means something is if you hit a Demoman who has the Claidheamor or Eyelander with 1 head; that's as far as the usefulness of the Machina's extra damage goes (and you could just as easily shoot the Demoman in the head instead of waiting to bodyshot him anyway).

[QUOTE=lilgamefreek;40765968]Are we still doing axstinguisher suggestions? [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/c9/Item_icon_Axtinguisher.png/100px-Item_icon_Axtinguisher.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] 100% critical hit vs burning players [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] 30% damage penalty [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] No random critical hits [B]long ass axstinguisher post[/b][/QUOTE] Does no one really have any feedback on this? I guess this thread is just super tired of axstinguisher discussion.

[QUOTE=lilgamefreek;40767300]Does no one really have any feedback on this? I guess this thread is just super tired of axstinguisher discussion.[/QUOTE] If you make the Axtinguisher do less damage than the Flamethrower, no one's going to bother taking the risk in using a melee weapon. Pyro's biggest crux is a lack of reliable burst damage. Even when ambushing, the Pyro simply cannot outdamage his victim unless they're not paying attention or they just flat-out miss. Airblast and the Axtinguisher being added in the Pyro Update were bandage fixes to a broken class, while the Airblast is a part of the class' base loadout now, the Axtinguisher still is not, which makes it even more obvious that it's merely a bandage fixup. Effectively removing the bandage won't do much other than cause discomfort. Stock Pyro is still disadvantaged in comparison. The light classes already have a disadvantage against a Pyro that gets too close for comfort, being able to 1-shot them makes so little of a difference that it's actually not saving the Pyro any time, instead it's gambling the kill in hopes of the melee detection working correctly.

[QUOTE=lilgamefreek;40767300]Does no one really have any feedback on this? I guess this thread is just super tired of axstinguisher discussion.[/QUOTE] It's awesome, what else is left to say? EDIT: I use neon annihilator when I play pyro, even against competent opponents. When it comes to finishing people off, it usually gets the job done, actually. When I switch off to Axtinguisher I feel insanely OP.

people actually defend being able to destroy sappers? the spy-engineer relationship is already skewed in favor of the engineer, you have to avoid his team (usually on the front line, where all the action is) and be able to disable the engineer;s buildings without him killing you first. pyro is the class that is best at defending sentry nests, and his flamethrower is amazing for efficiently checking for spies. giving pyro a sapper destroyer is like giving the heavy the ability to receive more overheal from a medic, they're already too damn good at what they do. homewrecker was an idiotic idea, put in the same mini-community update along with weapons like the skullcutter (less speed for damage, permanent downside for terrible situational upside), the tribalman's shiv (anti-spy weapon), dalakohs (half-assed sandvich wanna be) etc. Also, axtinguisher is fine, the problem is the Degreaser, and the problem with the Degreaser is that the stock flamethrower is shit [B]Stock Flamer[/B] +Can now airblast your own flames to grant triple range and deal mini-crit damage +Otherwise the same [B]Degreaser[/B] -Cannot airblast your own flames -0.25 seconds longer switch between burning and airblast +Otherwise the same

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;40767417]If you make the Axtinguisher do less damage than the Flamethrower, no one's going to bother taking the risk in using a melee weapon. Pyro's biggest crux is a lack of reliable burst damage. Even when ambushing, the Pyro simply cannot outdamage his victim unless they're not paying attention or they just flat-out miss. Airblast and the Axtinguisher being added in the Pyro Update were bandage fixes to a broken class, while the Airblast is a part of the class' base loadout now, the Axtinguisher still is not, which makes it even more obvious that it's merely a bandage fixup. Effectively removing the bandage won't do much other than cause discomfort. Stock Pyro is still disadvantaged in comparison. The light classes already have a disadvantage against a Pyro that gets too close for comfort, being able to 1-shot them makes so little of a difference that it's actually not saving the Pyro any time, instead it's gambling the kill in hopes of the melee detection working correctly.[/QUOTE] They are all good points, and I think what best illustrates that you are right are how often I type "you're just dieing and respawning a bit faster". My suggestion doesn't push pyro to be more interesting play with or against in the overall ecosystem. But I feel your primary criticism is outside to scope of my intent. You say so yourself that pyro is a broken class, and axstinguisher doesn't fix the issue. With that in mind, it would be more effective to fix the pyro fundamentally and then dial the axstinguisher back so that it does not push the pyro's effectiveness over the line. The intent of my post was the second part with not suggestion or mention of the first part as it's outside of the scope of the discussion. Balancing unlockable weapons will not fix a class that is fundamentally broken.

[QUOTE=lilgamefreek;40767578]They are all good points, and I think what best illustrates that you are right are how often I type "you're just dieing and respawning a bit faster". My suggestion doesn't push pyro to be more interesting play with or against in the overall ecosystem. But I feel your primary criticism is outside to scope of my intent. You say so yourself that pyro is a broken class, and axstinguisher doesn't fix the issue. With that in mind, it would be more effective to fix the pyro fundamentally and then dial the axstinguisher back so that it does not push the pyro's effectiveness over the line. The intent of my post was the second part with not suggestion or mention of the first part as it's outside of the scope of the discussion. Balancing unlockable weapons will not fix a class that is fundamentally broken.[/QUOTE] Pyro's biggest issues stem from the origin of the series: Quakeworld Team Fortress. Quite literally, the Pyro was "the guy with the flamethrower." Just like how the Sniper was just "the guy with the sniper rifle." The classes were originally based on weapons from Quake (although the Spy's disguising was based on a bug in the Quake engine that showed players as other players). This continued into TFC, where the Pyro was given the Flamethrower with little regard to being balanced. It's so bad that it's actually an insult to be killed by a Pyro in TFC. Almost on par with being killed by the Mantreads, Short Circuit, or Fan O'War. TF2 introduced nothing new to the Pyro's arsenal on-launch. Instead of getting a realistic flamethrower (which has pretty potent range), he's stuck once again with a Hollywood-esq flamethrower that functions very similarly to the 2 previous iterations of the series. I hear people claim that the Pyro was designed to be an ambush class. They're dead wrong. The Pyro was designed as "the flamethrower guy", with ambushing coming only as a result of how poorly the flamethrower itself functions.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;40767078][img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/e/e3/Backpack_Machina.png/90px-Backpack_Machina.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]Critical hits deal 15% more damage [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/15px-Pictogram_plus.png[/img]Critical hits penetrate players [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]Cannot fire unless zoomed [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/img]Fires tracer rounds Look at how easy it is to completely change the stigma behind using a particular weapon. As an added bonus, mini-crits are still technically considered a type of critical hit. So there's some actual synergy with mini-crit debuffs such as Jarate or buffs like the Buff Banner.[/QUOTE] [t]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/542961221295585804/975908A63D1C634C9BE24418C8774AD9CD433B7D/[/t] Just tested with bots. There's no attribute for critical hit penetration, sadly. 173dmg quickscopes, I could get used to this. I found that with smg equipped, I can just headshot a demo/pyro and then snipe them down with smg, even a single bullet instakills them at that point. I imagine things would get interesting with cleaner's carbine and actual crit-dependent stats.