[QUOTE=wakkydude;26811403][editline]20th December 2010[/editline]
the Spy cannot be hear [B]Using a set which makes cloaking REQUIRED to survive.[/B], the Scout is powerfull [B]Using shit weapons[/B], the Sniper can't be killed by a headshot [B]HE CAN'T DO HEADSHOTS EITHER[/B] and in a duel, he'll kill you before by bodyshooting you if you have the reflex to aim the head.[/QUOTE]
1. You can't be heard at all when uncloaking. You can uncloak with the Dead Ringer [B][I]right behind someone[/I][/B] and they won't hear it.
2. A Scout with the Poly Pack can do decent damage from far away and heavy damage up close. He can also easily regain health with Mad Milk, along with 150 health. Very, very, very fucking hard to fight him.
why does being a community item mean they shouldn't be achievable?
I can't wait to see what valve will do on April the first
[QUOTE=Ac!dL3ak;26812123]I can't wait to see what valve will do on April the first[/QUOTE]
OPTIMISATION UPDATE WITH BUGFIXES AND WEAPON BALANCES! EVERYONE CAN USE EVERY WEAPON!
...for about a day until they revert.
Dang, my huge post was bottompaged. :frown:
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=PSI Guy;26812121]why does being a community item mean they shouldn't be achievable?[/QUOTE]
They've never been achievable so they shouldn't be expected to be. There would be waaaaaaaay too many achievements if they had to be obtainable through them.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
Plus with trading, crafting and random drops it's not that hard to get what you really want. Normal unlockables from individual class updates weren't craftable as far as I'm aware.
There are other systems Valve could set up to earn items rather than earn X achievements you know. It could easily be applied to the community items. I think something similar to League of Legends or Halo Reach would work, earn in-game points for how well you perform each match and use the points to get new items. The pricing of the items and how many points is all that'd need to be adjusted.
[quote=Tabarncao[/quote]Crafting was there so long before trading, I don't know why you're putting them together. I completely agree about trading being annoying when people don't do anything and just repeatedly write WTT THIS HAT, but if you were there before trading arrived people were demanding it all the time. So, blame the community.[/quote]
Well my memory is a bit foggy, especially since I gave up playing TF2 regularly quite some time ago. The point is, both crafting and trading have contributed to the demise of the TF2 we once knew. As for "blame the community," how about we blame the systems? The community only talks about trading hats and shit [i]because they can.[/i] If we didn't have all these extraneous features, people wouldn't be able to shit all over chat about it.
[quote]Disagree. I mostly use the stock weapons and I'm frequently in the top 3 players on my team. I only use the Mad Milk for Medieval. Most of the new items are situational. You can't use Your Eternal Reward if there's a sentry on the opposing team, for example that's suicide. The Holy Mackerel doesn't do anything special (stats-wise). The Pyro set is the only one that might be necessary for some people, the Degreaser is better if you only use the Axtinguisher (but if you're good with the normal Flamethrower already you shouldn't be at much of a disadvantage), and the Powerjack is the best weapon for melee-only/medieval. But other than that, you don't really need all those weapons.[/quote]
I guess what I should say is that we shouldn't have to deal with other players wielding weapons we have ~0 % chance of getting. I think Valve's even pointed it out before, but it's really frustrating to be surrounded by people that are killing you using weapons you can't access. Some [i]are[/i] essentially straight upgrades. Whether or not you expressly [i]need[/i] the weapons is dancing around the point, I think. I think the real question is [i]why[/i] we need all these weapons. They unnecessarily clutter the game.
And before someone pulls the "so that it doesn't get boring" argument, spare me the stupidity. People still play Quake III (very) seriously, and a lot of people (myself included) still enjoy that game. And guess what? It never got any new weapons because it was nearly perfect as it was. TF2 was nearly perfect as it was, before even the first Medic update. Change is not a necessity, and if developers want to radically change their games, I'd prefer they utilize sequels and not completely fuck over the game they already made.
[quote]Well duh, they're community items. They can be crafted.[/quote]
I already pointed out that crafting requires dozens of weapons, which in turn requires dozens of hours of playing/idling, and most of us don't have the time to play TF2 every waking hour of the day. Moving on?
[quote]Or crafting them (there are specific craft recipes for each of them), or trading, or random drops. JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF SPENDING MONEY DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT IS THE ONLY VIABLE ONE.
The new sets don't require hats. Valve has learned.[/quote]
Again, crafting is just as costly as spending money at this point, considering the time investment required. Time is money, no? As for "you don't need to spend money," well AGAIN unless you want to pray for that one hat/one weapon you need to complete a set to drop, yes, you do.
[quote]Oh okay, so a new game mode completely ruins TF2 for you? You don't need to play it, change servers if you don't like it. I strongly believe that you're part of a minority in this case. It's like complaining about not liking maps x and y and claiming that Valve ruined TF2 by putting them in the game or something.[/quote]
I'm getting more convinced that you're not even reading. Where did I say the one gamemode "completely ruins TF2 for me"? I just think it's a shining (with shit) example of how far from 2007 TF2 has come.
[quote]At least you don't have to buy those hats. They're completely cosmetic. Weapons are cheaper and you don't need to buy them either. Everything related to the gameplay is free. Completely free. And has been for three years. People talking about hats being more expensive than map packs aren't making a good argument, because those hats don't change anything with the way you play the game, and are available by other means.
With the notable exceptions of the Mann Co. Cap, the Halloween hats and promotional ones (but those don't count). But they're cosmetic, so who cares.
I think the reason why hats are so expensive is that if they were cheap, everybody would buy them and they would have no value anymore. I mean, the game is flooded with hats already, so making them available at a low price would make it even worse, especially with new hats.[/quote]
But nothing except the default weapons are free. Everything requires an inordinate investment of time, which is not good game design for a (once) simple multiplayer game. Other games like Call of Duty or even Killing Floor do have unlocking systems, but both can be obtained through focused gameplay. The only way to get this shit in TF2 is by waiting. And hoping.
[quote]There's a French proverb that says "Il n'y a que les imbéciles qui ne changent pas d'avis", which roughly translates to "Only fools don't change their opinions". It's been three years since they've made their commentary. The character silhouettes are still easily recognizable, most of what they said is still applicable. They have added paint, hats and other such things to customize your character that don't necessarily fit the TF2 "art style" or environment, and now even some weapons don't really fit, that I will admit. But honestly, TF2 isn't a serious game. It's just fun. People made it super serious by making a big deal out of hats and unusuals and misc. items, trading being partly to blame for it. But goddamn, I for one don't care if the guy who just killed me is wearing flashy pink bunny ears, I'm playing TF2 to have fun, not to judge its historical accuracy. The mere fact that you play as nine dramatically different-looking, different-acting, characters from different countries is pushing the setting. I don't think it should be such a big deal. The only complaint about the style that I can agree with is the unusual particle effects, which are distracting in some situations. Then again, easy targets, right?[/quote]
Good game design is not an opinion. It is good game design. It's not an "opinion" that simplistic, primary colors are easier to recognize and more instinctual that glowing auras and confetti-esque particle effects. Adding weapons that can only be gained through random luck is not good game design, and it is most certainly not an opinion of any kind.
[QUOTE=Tabarnaco;26812553]Dang, my huge post was bottompaged. :frown:
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
They've never been achievable so they shouldn't be expected to be. There would be waaaaaaaay too many achievements if they had to be obtainable through them.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
Plus with trading, crafting and random drops it's not that hard to get what you really want. Normal unlockables from individual class updates weren't craftable as far as I'm aware.[/QUOTE]
just change the milestones or add more. and many people don't want to step foot into trade servers, as they are an example of what is truly wrong with team fortress 2
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26812953]Well my memory is a bit foggy, especially since I gave up playing TF2 regularly quite some time ago. The point is, both crafting and trading have contributed to the demise of the TF2 we once knew. As for "blame the community," how about we blame the systems? The community only talks about trading hats and shit [i]because they can.[/i] If we didn't have all these extraneous features, people wouldn't be able to shit all over chat about it.[/quote]
And the community demanded trading for a long time, so it's their fault it's there, and it's their fault if there are annoying killjoys who spend their time asking for trades. Blame the community. What could the developers possibly do, just ignore the endless demands of the community?
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26812953]~0 % chance of getting[/quote]
Ridiculous. I keep saying that, but crafting, trading, store, random drops.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26812953]Some [i]are[/i] essentially straight upgrades.[/quote]
The Polycount ones, no, not really. As for the new ones, they're going to be nerfed, probably. I don't have any weapon and I'm still doing good. In a couple weeks anyone who cares will get them.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26812953]Whether or not you expressly [i]need[/i] the weapons is dancing around the point, I think. I think the real question is [i]why[/i] we need all these weapons. They unnecessarily clutter the game.[/quote]
Hahaha. Maybe because the community keeps demanding more content? Maybe it keeps the game alive?
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26812953]And before someone pulls the "so that it doesn't get boring" argument, spare me the stupidity. People still play Quake III (very) seriously, and a lot of people (myself included) still enjoy that game. And guess what? It never got any new weapons because it was nearly perfect as it was. TF2 was nearly perfect as it was, before even the first Medic update. Change is not a necessity, and if developers want to radically change their games, I'd prefer they utilize sequels and not completely fuck over the game they already made.[/quote]
Ridiculous. "This game never got any update and people still play it, so it's wrong for this other game to evolve constantly". It's like how in Counter-Strike: Source most servers ban the AWP because it's overpowered, but when the game got updated with achievements and engine updates the community cried and claimed that IT RUINED THE GAME. This system constantly attracts new players to the game and keeps old ones interested.
Similarly, I could say, "I loved all the TF2 updates, so it's wrong to leave a game the way it is. Quake 3 should therefore receive more content regularly."
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26812953]I already pointed out that crafting requires dozens of weapons, which in turn requires dozens of hours of playing/idling, and most of us don't have the time to play TF2 every waking hour of the day. Moving on?[/quote]
Random drops, store, trading.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26812953]Again, crafting is just as costly as spending money at this point, considering the time investment required. Time is money, no? As for "you don't need to spend money," well AGAIN unless you want to pray for that one hat/one weapon you need to complete a set to drop, yes, you do.[/quote]
It's entirely your choice/fault if you want a hat badly enough to make such a big deal about it. As for weapons, they are all very common and easy to find and obtain through trading if you wait a few weeks, or just [i]play the game[/i].
Also, how would you calculate how much money time is worth?
And you can still craft a specific set hat, [i]and the new sets don't require hats[/i].
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26812953]I'm getting more convinced that you're not even reading. Where did I say the one gamemode "completely ruins TF2 for me"? I just think it's a shining (with shit) example of how far from 2007 TF2 has come.[/quote]
You obviously implied it. "This update just reminded me how the game's gone down the shitter", and "this isn't even TF2 any more." What would these mean besides "TF2 is ruined"? Word your arguments better if you want to be understood. Saying "you're not reading" is just... a bad excuse.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26812953]But nothing except the default weapons are free. Everything requires an inordinate investment of time, which is not good game design for a (once) simple multiplayer game. Other games like Call of Duty or even Killing Floor do have unlocking systems, but both can be obtained through focused gameplay. The only way to get this shit in TF2 is by waiting. And hoping.[/quote]
If you're going to argue that weapon unlocks aren't fair because you have to play the game, you should stop playing video games altogether. Class unlocks are available through achievements, others can be crafted, bought, traded, found randomly, there are so many options, you have [i]no reason[/i] to claim that weapons are too hard to obtain. Obviously, new weapons are initially harder to find. But wait a while and no one will care about them anymore, and you can get them easily through trading. [i]You are pretty much guaranteed to get an item drop once every hour[/i]. There's no "waiting" and "hoping" involved in this unless this game bores you in the first place. In which case, you should stop playing!
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26812953]Good game design is not an opinion. It is good game design. It's not an "opinion" that simplistic, primary colors are easier to recognize and more instinctual that glowing auras and confetti-esque particle effects. Adding weapons that can only be gained through random luck is not good game design, and it is most certainly not an opinion of any kind.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you understand the point. Their current view of the game design may differ from their initial one. They have realised, after playing the game, evaluating the community's responses and such, that they could change some things, make the game different, more customisable, etc. They're evaluating the effectiveness of various tweaks to their initial design, and ended up changing the game. Sticking to one's original idea/opinion/position no matter what is stubborn.
Weapons are not only obtained "through random luck", when will you understand? Trading, crafting, store.
What you think is a good game design is definitely an opinion, not an incontestable fact.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=PSI Guy;26812992]just change the milestones or add more. and many people don't want to step foot into trade servers, as they are an example of what is truly wrong with team fortress 2[/QUOTE]
The problem with trading servers for me is that they're always full of people who want to trade hats, so if you're looking for a weapon or something different they're not very helpful. They're also very chaotic, so it's hard to get people's attention. However I do believe that people who just stand there repeatedly asking for the same thread should fuck off to a trading server. If I want to trade something quickly I either go there or try and join a couple different servers and ask once or twice when I die.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=A B.A. Survivor;26812088]1. You can't be heard at all when uncloaking. You can uncloak with the Dead Ringer [B][I]right behind someone[/I][/B] and they won't hear it.[/quote]
Easily countered with a sentry though. And I always look behind me frequently when I play as a class susceptible to be backstabbed, because even a normal spy can easily uncloak a little farther away or while people are shooting to be unheard.
[quote=And the community demanded trading for a long time, so it's their fault it's there, and it's their fault if there are annoying killjoys who spend their time asking for trades. Blame the community. What could the developers possibly do, just ignore the endless demands of the community?[/quote]
The community only demanded trading because Valve hinted that it would exist, and because of Valves drop system.
[quote]idiculous. I keep saying that, but crafting, trading, store, random drops.[/quote]
And I keep saying "takes dozens of items," "requires rare items," "requires real money," and "requires tons of playtime", respectively.
[quote]The Polycount ones, no, not really. As for the new ones, they're going to be nerfed, probably. I don't have any weapon and I'm still doing good. In a couple weeks anyone who cares will get them.[/quote]
Right, we'll see about that, but stuff like the Ubersaw STILL hasn't been nerfed and it's still essentially a straight upgrade.
[quote]Hahaha. Maybe because the community keeps demanding more content? Maybe it keeps the game alive?[/quote]
[quote]Ridiculous. "This game never got any update and people still play it, so it's wrong for this other game to evolve constantly". It's like how in Counter-Strike: Source most servers ban the AWP because it's overpowered, but when the game got updated with achievements and engine updates the community cried and claimed that IT RUINED THE GAME. This system constantly attracts new players to the game and keeps old ones interested.
Similarly, I could say, "I loved all the TF2 updates, so it's wrong to leave a game the way it is. Quake 3 should therefore receive more content regularly."[/quote]
Games don't need constant updates (especially gameplay-changing, rather than content-adding) to keep them interesting. If TF2 needs updates to remain interesting, then it's a shitty game.
[quote]Random drops, store, trading.[/quote]
Hurr, durr, herp, and derp.
[quote]It's entirely your choice/fault if you want a hat badly enough to make such a big deal about it. As for weapons, they are all very common and easy to find and obtain through trading if you wait a few weeks, or just play the game.
Also, how would you calculate how much money time is worth?
And you can still craft a specific set hat, and the new sets don't require hats.[/quote]
Common and easy to find through trading (requires rare weapons,) wait a few weeks or play the game (for a few weeks.). I don't have hours to sink into TF2. Prior to all these item updates I could join, play a single 20-minute match and be on an equal playing-field with everyone else. That is literally an impossibility now.
[quote]You obviously implied it. "This update just reminded me how the game's gone down the shitter", and "this isn't even TF2 any more." What would these mean besides "TF2 is ruined"? Word your arguments better if you want to be understood. Saying "you're not reading" is just... a bad excuse.[/quote]
Well hurr-durr, of course it means TF2 is ruined. But nowhere did I imply that it was that one gamemode that ruined it, you're pulling this out of your ass. I said it "reminded me", as in, it's a good example, not the cinching addition.
[quote]If you're going to argue that weapon unlocks aren't fair because you have to play the game, you should stop playing video games altogether. Class unlocks are available through achievements, others can be crafted, bought, traded, found randomly, there are so many options, you have no reason to claim that weapons are too hard to obtain. Obviously, new weapons are initially harder to find. But wait a while and no one will care about them anymore, and you can get them easily through trading. You are pretty much guaranteed to get an item drop once every hour. There's no "waiting" and "hoping" involved in this unless this game bores you in the first place. In which case, you should stop playing![/quote]
I don't have the time to sit down and play TF2 for even an hour at a time. Considering that's very nearly the minimum amount of time you need to spend playing to get an item, it makes it impossible for me to get items. I just want to drop in for a 20 minute match and leave. Again, in something like Call of Duty or Killing Floor, 20 minutes is enough to progress in terms of level advancement, but 20 minutes is not enough to get an item in TF2.
As for "no reason to claim weapons are hard to obtain," I think I've already properly addressed this.
[quote]I don't think you understand the point. Their current view of the game design may differ from their initial one. They have realised, after playing the game, evaluating the community's responses and such, that they could change some things, make the game different, more customisable, etc. They're evaluating the effectiveness of various tweaks to their initial design, and ended up changing the game. Sticking to one's original idea/opinion/position no matter what is stubborn.
Weapons are not only obtained "through random luck", when will you understand? Trading, crafting, store.
What you think is a good game design is definitely an opinion, not an incontestable fact.[/quote]
If they want to change the gameplay, they should do it in a sequel. Imagine if, instead of releasing Invisible War, Ion Storm "updated" Deus Ex 1 and replaced all the gameplay with Invisible War's styling. Need I say more?
Good game design is partly opinion, but it's also largely fact. It is an indisputable fact, for example, that simple colors are easier to recognize.
Oh, this line is particularly rich:
[quote]Weapons are not only obtained "through random luck", when will you understand? Trading, crafting, store.[/quote]
Trading: you must trade items which are gained, guess what, randomly.
Crafting: you must craft items which are, guess what, gained randomly, and further more, many craft recipes all produce random results.
Store: real money. That is all.
I used to whine until i realized that i could deal with it,all of you stop whining,in a matter of days,valve will fix everything,you all begged Valve for content and now you're complaining about it,what the hell is wrong with you people?
I love this update, if only for being able to suicide bomb as a demo
Having a Jihad squad of demos on my team makes the game that much more fun
I like medieval mode.
[QUOTE=Kim_Jong_il;26814365]I used to whine until i realized that i could deal with it,all of you stop whining,in a matter of days,valve will fix everything,you all begged Valve for content and now you're complaining about it,what the hell is wrong with you people?[/QUOTE]
I don't think a lot of us "begged for content." I know I didn't at least, I was quite content with vanilla TF2.
You know, I do moan a lot (read some of my posts), but I still like TF2, believe it or not.
The only reason I moan is because, despite the fact that it still is a good game, it doesn't quite feel like a true Valve game. It's not so much that it went a little downhill, but because Valve sold out on a lot of their promises regarding
*Silhouette
*Visual distractions and clutter
*Fitting weapons and hats
*Micro transactions and their close to approaching necessity (Nearly- 2 reclaimed and a weapon is a lot for one weapon. Buying is much quicker, easier and hassle free)
*Buyable weapons only (the crate goods, like the steel fists- only obtainable with cash right now)
I'll keep playing, but I can't defend Valve when they're compared to companies like Activision.
I once did. Now I wish I could.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]The community only demanded trading because Valve hinted that it would exist, and because of Valves drop system.[/quote]
Fair enough.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]And I keep saying "takes dozens of items," "requires rare items," "requires real money," and "requires tons of playtime", respectively.[/quote]
Well please say them all at the same time or not at all, it looks like you're implying that there's only one option.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]Right, we'll see about that, but stuff like the Ubersaw STILL hasn't been nerfed and it's still essentially a straight upgrade.[/quote]
I use the Bonesaw and I'm much better with it thanks to its faster swing speed. I never need to melee people to build my Übercharge.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]Games don't need constant updates (especially gameplay-changing, rather than content-adding) to keep them interesting. If TF2 needs updates to remain interesting, then it's a shitty game.[/quote]
Nope, TF2 is not perfect, no game is perfect, and since its developers are nice people they're constantly adding content to the game, tweaking it, to make it more interesting, allow for different strategies with different weapons, etc.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]Common and easy to find through trading (requires rare weapons,)[/quote]
Weapons don't "require rare weapons", they're worthless after a few weeks.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]wait a few weeks or play the game (for a few weeks.).[/quote]
Crafting, random drops, store, trading, you're likely to find a few new weapons through random drops already, if you get dupes trade them for other weapons you don't have.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]I don't have hours to sink into TF2. Prior to all these item updates I could join, play a single 20-minute match and be on an equal playing-field with everyone else. That is literally an impossibility now.[/quote]
You played 0.2 hour of TF2 in the past two weeks and more than 2 of four different games in the past two weeks, if TF2 is a low priority for you well, it's your choice/fault. Also, this isn't the fault of the drop/craft/trade/store system, maybe you're just bad at the game because you don't play a lot? I play stock Heavy, stock Soldier (with Equalizer though), stock Scout, no problem.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]Well hurr-durr, of course it means TF2 is ruined. But nowhere did I imply that it was that one gamemode that ruined it, you're pulling this out of your ass. I said it "reminded me", as in, it's a good example, not the cinching addition.[/quote]
Okay.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]I don't have the time to sit down and play TF2 for even an hour at a time. Considering that's very nearly the minimum amount of time you need to spend playing to get an item, it makes it impossible for me to get items. I just want to drop in for a 20 minute match and leave. Again, in something like Call of Duty or Killing Floor, 20 minutes is enough to progress in terms of level advancement, but 20 minutes is not enough to get an item in TF2.[/quote]
Good luck getting to level 5 or 6 on a perk in Killing Floor if you play 20 minutes here and there. Also, playtime in TF2 is cumulative, so play 20 minutes three times a week and you'll get one, two, maybe three weapons, plus crates, which you can then trade for other weapons.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]As for "no reason to claim weapons are hard to obtain," I think I've already properly addressed this.[/quote]
Nope, you didn't reply to what I said about weapons being very common after a few weeks, did you?
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]If they want to change the gameplay, they should do it in a sequel. Imagine if, instead of releasing Invisible War, Ion Storm "updated" Deus Ex 1 and replaced all the gameplay with Invisible War's styling. Need I say more?[/quote]
Completely unrelated, Deus Ex is a single player game, the two games have completely different settings, different characters, different items, different everything. Plus, I don't think that Deus Ex 2 was developed by the same guys as Deus Ex 1, was it?
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]Good game design is partly opinion, but it's also largely fact. It is an indisputable fact, for example, that simple colors are easier to recognize.[/quote]
Sure.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]Trading: you must trade items which are gained, guess what, randomly.[/quote]
Or uncrated, or crafted. :downs:
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]Crafting: you must craft items which are, guess what, gained randomly, and further more, many craft recipes all produce random results.[/quote]
Not even true. Hat recipes produce random results, or recipes that create random weapons. Every weapon that's not obtainable through achievements have specific craft recipes except for the Rocket Jumper and the Sticky Jumper.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26814248]Store: real money. That is all.[/QUOTE]
But time is money, so where's the problem?
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
I had to write this three times because I pressed backspace by mistake and it deleted my progress.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;26814707]*Silhouette[/quote]
How? Hats don't change anything, they still have the same bodies. Don't tell me it's hard to recognize a class in TF2, they still look incredibly different from each other.
[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;26814707]*Visual distractions and clutter[/quote]
True.
[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;26814707]*Fitting weapons and hats[/quote]
I don't know where they promised that the hats and weapons would "fit" or where they defined what "fits".
[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;26814707]*Micro transactions and their close to approaching necessity (Nearly- 2 reclaimed and a weapon is a lot for one weapon. Buying is much quicker, easier and hassle free)[/quote]
I never bought a weapon (except for the Rocket Jumper and Sticky Jumper, for fun) or a set hat. Weapons all drop, everybody will have them soon. I think it's people's fault if they don't keep metal.
[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;26814707]*Buyable weapons only (the crate goods, like the steel fists- only obtainable with cash right now)[/quote]
They can't be obtained in the store. They're not "buyable only", they just haven't been "released". It's going to happen progressively over two weeks, on the 24th and the 31st. Christmas and New Year's eves!
I'm not sure where I stand with TF2, I mean, yeah it's cool and all, the character's are both badass and funny at the same time, but... all these items, it's just too much:
-The Soldier has 12 hats, and Pyro has 13.
-I can't play in a server without people being AFK because they're trading.
-I know I really shouldn't whine about this, but the artstyle I used to love is now gone.
-Dr Seuss hat... I mean come on.
Play the TF2 beta instead. 90% of your problems are solved.
I completely agree that there are too many hats. I would really like to be able to wear them all, but I can't and most of them just sit there collecting dust. I was really happy when I got my first hat, but now...
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=IMA SHAARK;26815036]Play the TF2 beta instead. 90% of your problems are solved.[/QUOTE]
Not enough players and my friends don't play it.
Only thing I don't get is why they added medieval style weapons/map in a game set in the 1950s.
Other than the fact that that doesn't make sense, the update was good.
Look at the thread on the Medieval mode. There are computers hidden behind half-closed doors and there's evidence (a prop I think) that they may just be in some kind of amusement park.
[quote=Tabarnaco]Nope, TF2 is not perfect, no game is perfect, and since its developers are nice people they're constantly adding content to the game, tweaking it, to make it more interesting, allow for different strategies with different weapons, etc.[/quote]
They're not just adding content, though, they're significantly changing base gameplay. I think it was plenty interesting pre-updates, and I feel like all this gameplay changing should be occurring in a fashion that doesn't affect the game I already bought and loved.
[quote]Weapons don't "require rare weapons", they're worthless after a few weeks.[/quote]
Sorry, mis-type. I meant rare items.
[quote]Crafting, random drops, store, trading, you're likely to find a few new weapons through random drops already, if you get dupes trade them for other weapons you don't have.[/quote]
Urgh. I'm done typing this out. Since you apparently have disregarded all my previous points against this, I'll just Cliff-Notes it for you: ultimately, everything requires a huge time/money investment that's just ridiculous for an arena-based multiplayer shooter.
[quote]You played 0.2 hour of TF2 in the past two weeks and more than 2 of four different games in the past two weeks, if TF2 is a low priority for you well, it's your choice/fault. Also, this isn't the fault of the drop/craft/trade/store system, maybe you're just bad at the game because you don't play a lot? I play stock Heavy, stock Soldier (with Equalizer though), stock Scout, no problem.[/quote]
The only reason TF2 is a low priority for me is because it's awful now. I'd play it more if not for the multifarious reasons I've already listed.
[quote]Good luck getting to level 5 or 6 on a perk in Killing Floor if you play 20 minutes here and there. Also, playtime in TF2 is cumulative, so play 20 minutes three times a week and you'll get one, two, maybe three weapons, plus crates, which you can then trade for other weapons.[/quote]
Well I've been playing Killing Floor for some time, and only very rarely in marathon sessions, and have significantly leveled a few of my perks. It's not particularly difficult. As for TF2 time being cumulative... I certainly haven't noticed that. A month back I tried playing TF2 again (regularly) and out of several hours of play time got Jarate. A single Jarate, of which I already had ~4 from way back when I bothered to idle.
[quote]Nope, you didn't reply to what I said about weapons being very common after a few weeks, did you?[/quote]
You said this in this post, of course I couldn't respond to it. But here goes: weapons are common after a few weeks if you have a stock of weapons to trade/craft for them, which you probably do if you play an hour or so a day. But not all of us do that, and therefore weapons are not "common" after a few weeks, for us.
[quote]Completely unrelated, Deus Ex is a single player game, the two games have completely different settings, different characters, different items, different everything. Plus, I don't think that Deus Ex 2 was developed by the same guys as Deus Ex 1, was it?[/quote]
No, it's completely relevant. Deus Ex 2 had completely different gameplay from Deus Ex 1. If that gameplay had just replaced DE 1's gameplay, how do you think people would have reacted? (I don't know if Ion Storm made 2 or not, it's irrelevant anyways.)
If you need a multiplayer example that badly, how about Street Fighter IV? A lot of people put up a stink due to the drastic changes made from III and II, what if they'd replaced II and III with IV, rather than offering it as an alternative? People still competitively play II and III because they enjoy them more. I [i]wish[/i] I could play 2007 TF2, but I can't. Period.
[quote]Or uncrated, or crafted.[/quote]
You've just been repeating "store, trading, drops, crafting" without significant basis for offering these as ways of circumventing the time-investment necessary for item-gain. And I don't blame you because you can't: [b]ultimately, all ways of item gain require inordinate time or money investment, directly or indirectly.[/b] There, it's bold. Maybe you'll read it now.
[quote]Not even true. Hat recipes produce random results, or recipes that create random weapons. Every weapon that's not obtainable through achievements have specific craft recipes except for the Rocket Jumper and the Sticky Jumper.[/quote]
How is it not true if you just named a few recipes that have random results?
[quote]But time is money, so where's the problem?[/quote]
Thanks for countering yourself.
[sp]In case you didn't notice, that was my point. I don't want to sink serious time or money into an arena-based muliplayer shooter just to be on an equal playing field.[/sp]
I actually like this update, I've made about 300 dollars from selling refined metal, which then I can buy the new packs of things and get called a tool by random people because I spent "hard earned money" on it. I have 4 TF2 farming accounts, gg.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]They're not just adding content, though, they're significantly changing base gameplay. I think it was plenty interesting pre-updates, and I feel like all this gameplay changing should be occurring in a fashion that doesn't affect the game I already bought and loved.[/quote]
All the classes function pretty much the same way as they initially did. They have the same type of primary weapons and the same roles in the team as they always did. The developers just expanded the possibilities in playstyles with the new items.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]Urgh. I'm done typing this out. Since you apparently have disregarded all my previous points against this, I'll just Cliff-Notes it for you: ultimately, everything requires a huge time/money investment that's just ridiculous for an arena-based multiplayer shooter.[/quote]
And again, since you don't seem to read what I say, weapons are worthless after a few weeks and all you have to do is play one fucking hour, get one fucking weapon, and trade it for one other fucking weapon if you want a different one. There, done, you've got your weapon. If you're lucky you can even ask your friends or even some random server for dupes.
Players should [i]not[/i] get everything instantly. It wouldn't work. It would be way too hard to manage and get used to.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]The only reason TF2 is a low priority for me is because it's awful now. I'd play it more if not for the multifarious reasons I've already listed.[/quote]
Then stop playing the game if you don't care to play it! You shouldn't get weapons if you don't want to play!
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]Well I've been playing Killing Floor for some time, and only very rarely in marathon sessions, and have significantly leveled a few of my perks. It's not particularly difficult. As for TF2 time being cumulative... I certainly haven't noticed that. A month back I tried playing TF2 again (regularly) and out of several hours of play time got Jarate. A single Jarate, of which I already had ~4 from way back when I bothered to idle.[/quote]
"Significantly" as in what, level 2, 3? I played 60+ hours and my highest level is 4 with Medic and Sharpshooter, 2 and 3 with everything else. Maybe I suck or something, but the amount of headshots you need for level 4 and 5 is kind of ridiculous. You have to play much more to be good in Killing Floor (because you actually get improvements, not sidegrades) than in TF2.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]You said this in this post, of course I couldn't respond to it. But here goes: weapons are common after a few weeks if you have a stock of weapons to trade/craft for them, which you probably do if you play an hour or so a day. But not all of us do that, and therefore weapons are not "common" after a few weeks, for us.[/quote]
If you don't play you shouldn't get those weapons, I don't believe "I don't have the time" is a good argument for you considering what you previously said.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]No, it's completely relevant. Deus Ex 2 had completely different gameplay from Deus Ex 1. If that gameplay had just replaced DE 1's gameplay, how do you think people would have reacted? (I don't know if Ion Storm made 2 or not, it's irrelevant anyways.)[/quote]
Who made Deus Ex 2 is completely relevant, what the hell are you talking about? The TF2 team has been monitoring players and their reactions, listening to the community and playing the game themselves when they made their modifications to the game. They've been involved from the very beginning and are still here.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]If you need a multiplayer example that badly, how about Street Fighter IV? A lot of people put up a stink due to the drastic changes made from III and II, what if they'd replaced II and III with IV, rather than offering it as an alternative?[/quote]
Well for one it's an arcade game primarily so that would be pretty hard. And their Super versions are modifications and additions, people like them. :downs:
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]People still competitively play II and III because they enjoy them more.[/quote]
II definitely, III I've never even seen people playing it. More like because they've been playing them for years and Street Fighter doesn't have sequels every year.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]You've just been repeating "store, trading, drops, crafting" without significant basis for offering these as ways of circumventing the time-investment necessary for item-gain. And I don't blame you because you can't: [b]ultimately, all ways of item gain require inordinate time or money investment, directly or indirectly.[/b] There, it's bold. Maybe you'll read it now.[/quote]
Just because you don't want to play the damn game doesn't mean it requires "inordinate time or money investment". It takes a few hours to get new weapons, assuming you don't try to get them immediately after they're released. Between the random drops, crafting and trading, it's incredibly easy to obtain what you want, much easier than it used to be before trading. Considering all unlockables are meant to be sidegrades, you don't even need to get them, you can just play with the stock ones and win easily. And if someone's giving you trouble, change classes. If a Heavy has the new Minigun and keeps killing you, go Spy, backstab him. I said that before, and you didn't answer me, maybe you're just bad at the game, in which case it's your fault, not the game's. I fucking suck at Street Fighter because I never play it. I fucking sucked at TF2 when I started. Now I'm good, because I play it regularly. Don't have the time to play? Don't feel like playing? Don't play it.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]How is it not true if you just named a few recipes that have random results?[/quote]
Well then what you said about random craft recipes has absolutely nothing to do with this debate, because everything you're complaining about is possible to obtain specifically with crafting.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]Thanks for countering yourself.[/quote]
That was sarcastic.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26815161]In case you didn't notice, that was my point. I don't want to sink serious time or money into an arena-based muliplayer shooter just to be on an equal playing field.[/QUOTE]
You're better off playing single player games.
From what you're saying it just seems like you expect TF2 to give you everything because you don't feel like earning the new items by playing. It seems clear to me that you're not having fun with the game, and if you don't enjoy the changes, it's better for you that you stop playing, at least until they add a vanilla mode if they ever do it.
[QUOTE=goon165;26810642]Hey I have an Idea!
what you could use a Weapon with a Crate?, like a special crafting Recipe?.
You could break the lock with any weapon and get one of the items it contains except the Unusual hats, because, the are so delicate if you were to force the lock with one of your overpowered Mann Co. brand Weapons you would damage them and they'd loose their usual properties and revert to their lesser, but still prized, normal selves. This, I surmise, would give Crates a use for normal Players who don't want to buy anything but still provide that little bonus for People who buy Keys.
So people with no Money don't have useless Crates clogging up their inventory and people who pay have a [I][U]chance[/U][/I] to get something special.
[B]EVERYBODY WINS!.[/B][/QUOTE]
Not bad.
Not good either.
I don't like the idea of making unusuals a money-only obtainable thing.
If you're going to do it like that, make unusuals non-tradeable.
That'll piss some people off.
No need to do something so complicated, just have those damn keys drop randomly, but rarely.
I understand the need to add new weapons and stuff into the game since it helps longevity, the problem is in the implementation. If they just let it continue being just through a drop system it would have been ok. If it was through merit it would have been even better. The problem is is that the drop rates for the recent items are ridiculous, promoting the buying of the new items at ridiculous prices ($17 for a virtual hat, really?). This, along with trading and vintage stuff, seems to have created elitism in the game.
Also, some of these new weapons are severely overpowered, namely the powerjack and to an extent the rake. I would have rather have waited a few extra weeks or a couple of months for well balanced weapons rather than imbalanced ones rushed out just to please the community's need for new content. I, and I'm sure most people would have waited.
And also yes, I do understand they can use the profits to fund other games but the same can be said about all game companies that charge money for more content. I could say the same about Rockstar, or Bethesda, or even Infinity Ward. I notice a lot of people ranting about paid optional content from these companies but then rise to defend the same practices by Valve.
[editline]20th December 2010[/editline]
Also the key issue.
I've noticed whenever I run steam defragger it blows through the other games wicked quick, but when it hits TF2 it takes a good 10+ minutes to finish defragging, generally after every update. What's up with that?
What I think Valve should do.
Delete Vintage item status
Make Mann Co. Store prices reasonable
Test [u]all[/u] of the weapons before releasing an update
Make their own Goddamn weapons, instead of relying on the community to do their work
[QUOTE=Snapzies;26815289]I actually like this update, I've made about 300 dollars from selling refined metal, which then I can buy the new packs of things and get called a tool by random people because I spent "hard earned money" on it. I have 4 TF2 farming accounts, gg.[/QUOTE]
Thinking of that, I should probably idle on my brothers account that he hasn't used for a while. I could probably make some money with those items :v:
[QUOTE=OH-SNAP!;26815876]What I think Valve should do.
Delete Vintage item status
Make Mann Co. Store prices reasonable
Test [u]all[/u] of the weapons before releasing an update
Make their own Goddamn weapons, instead of relying on the community to do their work[/QUOTE]
But that makes sense though! And requires effort! I mean really, that's completely unreasonable! No game company does such a thing!
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