New update idea- Map tokens - Games

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23069768]The pain train is. If you have a team of soldiers/ demos with the pain train vs a team without, who'll cap faster? Pain train is a sidegrade in my eyes, vs the equaliser, but not to be allowed it during PL/CP maps? It'd be silly.[/QUOTE] Paintrain makes you take more damage.

[QUOTE=admiral_Cola;23069751]The point is that maps are required to play, unlocks are optional. [editline]09:43PM[/editline] You rebut nothing, you just refuse to listen to reason.[/QUOTE] OK, OK... Why are maps absolutely required to play? I've played PL for months, I don't need a CP map to play the game. Maps are not VITAL. If they are not vital, why can't they be like weapons, which you say are not vital?

[QUOTE=PonceDeLeon;23069775]So uh... why do we need map tokens? I'm just gonna use them for this: 3x token of any kind = 1 reclaimed[/QUOTE] You would need them to play the game just as how unlocked weapons are FUNDAMENTAL to gameplay.

[QUOTE=kevinseven;23069763]Wow. Why can't you see this idea is bad? Yes. You need to unlock weapons to use them, ok sure I've been waiting for a god damn huntsman for weeks. But I still play Sniper. But with the tokens. Its like "Wow this map looks great! People keep talking about how good it is t- OH WAIT I CAN'T PLAY!" with not having a huntsman "I wish I had a huntsman, its fun being a normal sniper but I love the huntsman...Oh well at least I can play this fun map and go to different classes." Yes I love playing this map, but I want to try the other maps.... Wait I can't. And you said your self its random. What if you hate 3 out of 5 maps. Chances are you will be stuck with those 3 maps you hate or no maps at all. Why limit a game thats perfectly limited as it is. Yea I can play any map I want, but I need to wait for weapons. Sure thats fine with me. Look lets just end this discussion, your trying to save your ass now by being "master troll" or some shit. While you came in here with a dumb idea, and now you try to defend your self.[/QUOTE] Before I dissect this, may I ask- do you agree that weapons shoudl be given out without the random drop system? If so, we're in agreement with one another.

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23069800]OK, OK... Why are maps absolutely required to play? I've played PL for months, I don't need a CP map to play the game. Maps are not VITAL. If they are not vital, why can't they be like weapons, which you say are not vital?[/QUOTE] because your map preference is fact, what if these were unlocked. The you lose access to most/all PL maps, now you cannot play on a PL server because they kick you for inability to play.

[QUOTE=Uber_Tofu;23069794]Paintrain makes you take more damage.[/QUOTE] 20/~18HP more damage. For a 200HP/ 175HP class, that's a tiny dent for twice the cap speed. A disadvantage, but not a significant one.

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23069853]20/~18HP more damage. For a 200HP/ 175HP class, that's a tiny dent for twice the cap speed. A disadvantage, but not a significant one.[/QUOTE] A heavy appears. Or even a scout.

[QUOTE=admiral_Cola;23069888]A heavy appears.[/QUOTE] *A wild heavy appears!* *Go Demosoldier!* *Wild heavy uses shoot!* *Demosoldier hid behind a corner!*/ *Demosoldier used sticky/ rocket jump and fled!* *Demosoldier used corner spam!* *Wild heavy was defeated!* *A wild scout appears!* *Demosoldier used kill the rat with well placed stickies and rockets* *Wild scout was defeated!*

Holy fuck your saying the Pain train is OP?! What do you think the eyelander is Op because demos who are using it longer then others are faster and stronger? How about the backburner? Pyros who are good at hiding are over powered because they can crit you from behind? Or a ambassador spy, because headshots do more damage. Look there are downsides to weapons. Some times valve gets them right (like the eyelander or crit a cola) and some times they get it wrong (some might say the FaN) TF2 is ever evolving, you need to adjust your tactics to deal with the opposing team. Look if you get rushed by paintrain soldiers then go heavy. Or Engie and make sentries. Just because you CAN get rushed doesn't mean you ARE going to get rushed. [editline]09:53PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23069922]*A wild heavy appears!* *Go Demosoldier!* *Wild heavy uses shoot!* *Demosoldier hid behind a corner!*/ *Demosoldier used sticky/ rocket jump and fled!* *Demosoldier used corner spam!* *Wild heavy was defeated!*[/QUOTE] lolololllolol u so funn- stop.

[QUOTE=Sun Tzu] For if he prepares to the front his rear will be weak,and if to the rear his front will be fragile.If he prepares to the left, his right will be vulnerable and if to the right, there will be few on his left. And when he prepares every where he will be weak everywhere[/QUOTE] Basically, each position gives an advantage and a weakness. As does each weapon. No one weapon/position is better then the other due to situation.

[QUOTE=admiral_Cola;23069888]A heavy appears.[/QUOTE] The difference would be less than a second.

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23069922]*A wild heavy appears!* *Go Demosoldier!* *Wild heavy uses shoot!* *Demosoldier hid behind a corner!*/ *Demosoldier used sticky/ rocket jump and fled!* *Demosoldier used corner spam!* *Wild heavy was defeated!* *A wild scout appears!* *Demosoldier used kill the rat with well placed stickies and rockets* *Wild scout was defeated!*[/QUOTE] Do you want to know why I can't lose. Its because I am not playing to win. I am playing to make you lose.

[QUOTE=kevinseven;23069927]Holy fuck your saying the Pain train is OP?! What do you think the eyelander is Op because demos who are sing it longer then others are faster and stronger? How about the backburner? Pyros who are good at hiding are over powered because they can crit you from behind? Or a ambassador spy, because headshots do more damage. Look there are downsides to weapons. Some times valve gets them right (like the eyelander or crit a cola) and some times they get it wrong (some might say the FaN) TF2 is ever evolving, you need to adjust your tactics to deal with the opposing team. Look if you get rushed by paintrain soldiers then go heavy. Or Engie and make sentries. Just because you CAN get rushed doesn't mean you ARE going to get rushed. [editline]09:53PM[/editline] lolololllolol u so funn- stop.[/QUOTE] Pain train is OP because its advantage over its downside is quite large. Eyelander with the targe is UP. Any idiot can just shoot him or juggle him. Only really useful in pubs. Backburner is UP and you're smart enough to know that. Ambassador is fine as it is. Not all weapons are perfect (BB/ Razorback), agreed. But if your arguement is to just improve, well, I see that as as floppy as you see mine (arguement, that is.) I want to evolve and change tactics. It's harder to do that when your weapons are not all at your disposal. [editline]02:57AM[/editline] [QUOTE=admiral_Cola;23069966]Do you want to know why I can't lose. Its because I am not playing to win. I am playing to make you lose.[/QUOTE] If that is the case, I win as well. You beat me, you enjoy a little ego boost, and I get a decent answer to a nagging question.

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23069995]Pain train is OP because its advantage over its downside is quite large. Eyelander with the targe is UP. Any idiot can just shoot him or juggle him. Only really useful in pubs. Backburner is UP and you're smart enough to know that. Ambassador is fine as it is. Not all weapons are perfect (BB/ Razorback), agreed. But if your arguement is to just improve, well, I see that as as floppy as you see mine (arguement, that is.) I want to evolve and change tactics. It's harder to do that when your weapons are not all at your disposal.[/QUOTE] In competitive weapons aren't even used if they cannot be obtained through normal means.

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23069800]OK, OK... Why are maps absolutely required to play? I've played PL for months, I don't need a CP map to play the game. Maps are not VITAL. If they are not vital, why can't they be like weapons, which you say are not vital?[/QUOTE] I would say maps are vital in that you need them to play the fucking game, how would TF2 without any maps at all work, anyway

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23069995] If that is the case, I win as well. You beat me, you enjoy a little ego boost, and I get a decent answer to a nagging question.[/QUOTE] Thanks because I don't care at all.

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23069995]Pain train is OP because its advantage over its downside is quite large. Eyelander with the targe is UP. Any idiot can just shoot him or juggle him. Only really useful in pubs. Backburner is UP and you're smart enough to know that. Ambassador is fine as it is. Not all weapons are perfect (BB/ Razorback), agreed. But if your arguement is to just improve, well, I see that as as floppy as you see mine (arguement, that is.) I want to evolve and change tactics. It's harder to do that when your weapons are not all at your disposal. [editline]02:57AM[/editline] If that is the case, I win as well. You beat me, you enjoy a little ego boost, and I get a decent answer to a nagging question.[/QUOTE] ugh, Screw what sun tzu said (may he rest in peace) but heres something to think about "It's not the gun that makes the man. It's his effort, His time put into training and knowledge of the weapon that he holds." I Said that. Not Sun Tzu.

[QUOTE=Mega Tuna;23069953]Basically, each position gives an advantage and a weakness. As does each weapon. No one weapon/position is better then the other due to situation.[/QUOTE] Aside from that's wrong. *Situation- Pyro attack. I'm soldier. *Location- A way away from medics and water. *Weapons- pain train- useless. Shovel- Doubly useless. Equaliser- Gets me there with seconds to spare. Yes, you have less health to do it. But in this case, it is better. If I could get there with all the weapons, it'd be no issue. OK, I think it's time to turn in for bed. I'll persuse through the arguements put down by you good folk in the morning, and adjust my OP if anyone makes a watertight case. Peace.

HEY GUYS!. I JUST GOT THE ACHIEVEMENT_IDLE TOKEN!. FUCK YES!. a

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23068903] Intended as the second. Though most people don't quite seem get the point I'm trying to make here.[/QUOTE] Well, I for one enjoyed it thoroughly, so consider yourself with at least one satisfied customer. However, seeing as I'm in the mood for a good debate, will take you up on your challenge. No asshole eating required. :V: First off, the point everyone is making: Map tokens and weapon drops represent two different forms of choice. Let's assume that every player's goal is to help lead their team to victory. (Yeah, I know, my first mistake) Map tokens would be a binary roadblock to that goal. If you don't have the map token, you can't help your team. At all. Ever. Until you find that map token, you can't even participate. [b]Yet[/b], that map token [i]does not assist you towards your progress to the goal[/i] of helping your team, save for imposing a binary check. The unlockable weapons are meant to be (what I'll call for lack of a better term) a diversity choice. They're meant to create, augment, or in some places, simplify different routes to the same goal of victory. In the case of the sapped dispenser, for example, my first response was [i]"YOU'RE A PYRO, HOW'D YOU LET A SPY GET BACK THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?"[/i] Obviously, that's not going to always be the case. There's times I really wish I didn't craft those gunboats I had, my sledgehammer, or my dead ringer, because the situation was calling for it. But, conversely, if I had my sledgehammer equipped, I probably wouldn't have gotten that awesome heavy kill. Same thing with the gunboats and the dead ringer. In fact, crafting away my dead ringer and cloak and dagger to get that last piece of metal for a hat forced me to use the old invis watch, and I realized how good it was. Now I switch between them much more often, depending on what the map needs. And that's the first (albeit small) point in random drop's favor. It forces you to get used to the original weapons and standard tactics before moving on to the other weapon. When I get something new, it's newness alone encourages me to try it out for more than one life before making a judgment. If I had gotten the backburner right away, I might not have gotten a chance to master the airblast and learn its power, and I'd be a much worse pyro than I am today. The second point (both my second point and another in its favor) is somewhat related. There have actually been studies that show after a certain point, more choices cause the chooser to feel [i]less[/i] happy with their decision. Case in point: your sledgehammer anectdote. If it didn't exist yet, would you really have gone "Man, I'd give up the weapon I'm holding to be able to destroy that sapper."? Were the drawbacks really worth that cost? With the engineer update and the polycount pack looming on the horizon, I'm actually going to be a little bit thankful for the breathing room that the random drops give me, especially if the polycount weapons have new effects. Otherwise, I feel obligated to number crunch like a WoW nerd to figure out the weapon that's best in each situation, offset by rarity of said situation to find the "Best" weapon to use for my team. By having them drop randomly, it prevents stagnation of your loadout for a long period of time. Lastly, the rarity of a weapon is a large part of their value, and almost the entirety of a hat's value. If I had every hat at the start, I'd lose a lot of the joy I have in wearing any one of them. Just being hit upfront with a backpack full of stuff? It'd be confusing for a long while. For example, DotA. I tried playing the game with friends. Problem is, they wanted to join the tourney scene, so it was pretty much "Hey. *WHAM* Here's your standard beginner's strategy guide. Learn and memorize every character's ins and outs, and at least 3 standard item builds for each one, kthx. Then, we're moving you up to the more advanced and unintuitive stuff, like killing your own creep for fun and profit. You've got a week." Me: ".... O.o ...Wat?" Yeah, safe to say I didn't end up doing well or liking the game much. While starting out with every weapon in TF2 is obviously not even close to the number of choices and permutations I had to face, it faintly has a similar aura about it. Then there's League of Legends, LoL for short. (LAWL, I'M GONNA POINT OUT HOW SIMILAR IT IS TO A COMMONLY USED SAYING BECAUSE THAT'S SO INNOVATIVE AND ORIGINAL... OH WAIT.) *ahem* They have roughly the same number of heroes and items, and add summoner levels, abilities, skill trees, and marks to the mix. Yet I didn't have this problem with the game. Why? First off, the heroes are on a weekly rotation. At lower levels, you only face other neophites, who only play those same ten characters. Therefore, you only need to learn about the heroes that are free this week, and you learn them pretty dang well. Everything else has to be bought. Your choice is limited to what you can buy with the money you earn in the game. Again, if I had to learn every glyph, skill, and hero combination at once, my brain would explode. So yeah. [b]Tl;dr version is basically:[/b] Map tokens aren't the same concept as weapon drops. And weapon drops are a fine solution to many problems in TF2, but make even more problems in a select few areas. (I.E. GODDAMMIT WHERE'S MY NEW KUKURI) But just having all of them available at the start opens up a whole new can 'o worms. EDIT: Yes, I started writing this about an hour ago. Wanna fight about it? >_>

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23070065]Aside from that's wrong. *Situation- Pyro attack. I'm soldier. *Location- A way away from medics and water. *Weapons- pain train- useless. Shovel- Doubly useless. Equaliser- Gets me there with seconds to spare. Yes, you have less health to do it. But in this case, it is better. If I could get there with all the weapons, it'd be no issue.[/QUOTE] You get hit with a shotgun, acting as though the pyro is gone.

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23070065]Aside from that's wrong. *Situation- Pyro attack. I'm soldier. *Location- A way away from medics and water. *Weapons- pain train- useless. Shovel- Doubly useless. Equaliser- Gets me there with seconds to spare. Yes, you have less health to do it. But in this case, it is better. If I could get there with all the weapons, it'd be no issue. OK, I think it's time to turn in for bed. I'll persuse through the arguements put down by you good folk in the morning, and adjust my OP if anyone makes a watertight case. Peace.[/QUOTE] So you want all weapons to be equal? GO BACK TO YOUR VANILLA SERVERS LASSIE! + what you were saying is basicly this 1V1 deathmatch. dustbowl CP red pyro VS blue solder. you are attacked un expected, and attempt to escape. But you find that you are not fast enough. so what do you do? YOU MUST FIGHT! In tf2, if you are going to lose by death or sudden death capture the point, if they are on the point and you the last on your team they are going to win one way or the other. OR ARE THEY? You will either die, Or live. In live, you may live but for the rest iof that game be called a coward. in die your team at least knows you DID TRY and in DIE you at least have an increased chance of victory, by killing the enemy!

Numenor, what are you doing

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23070065]Aside from that's wrong. *Situation- Pyro attack. I'm soldier. *Location- A way away from medics and water. *Weapons- pain train- useless. Shovel- Doubly useless. Equaliser- Gets me there with seconds to spare. Yes, you have less health to do it. But in this case, it is better. If I could get there with all the weapons, it'd be no issue. OK, I think it's time to turn in for bed. I'll persuse through the arguements put down by you good folk in the morning, and adjust my OP if anyone makes a watertight case. Peace.[/QUOTE] Lets say I was the Pyro. You start to run away, I have my flare gun/shotgun both good medium to long range weapons. I could finish you off like i finish off most overs. Shooting you in the back. And really, unless you ran deep into your base or if I wasn't capping a point or some thing I would chase after you.

[QUOTE=Mechtroid;23070078]Well, I for one enjoyed it thoroughly, so consider yourself with at least one satisfied customer. However, seeing as I'm in the mood for a good debate, will take you up on your challenge. No asshole eating required. :V: First off, the point everyone is making: Map tokens and weapon drops represent two different forms of choice. Let's assume that every player's goal is to help lead their team to victory. (Yeah, I know, my first mistake) Map tokens would be a binary roadblock to that goal. If you don't have the map token, you can't help your team. At all. Ever. Until you find that map token, you can't even participate. [b]Yet[/b], that map token [i]does not assist you towards your progress to the goal[/i] of helping your team, save for imposing a binary check. The unlockable weapons are meant to be (what I'll call for lack of a better term) a diversity choice. They're meant to create, augment, or in some places, simplify different routes to the same goal of victory. In the case of the sapped dispenser, for example, my first response was [i]"YOU'RE A PYRO, HOW'D YOU LET A SPY GET BACK THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?"[/i] Obviously, that's not going to always be the case. There's times I really wish I didn't craft those gunboats I had, my sledgehammer, or my dead ringer, because the situation was calling for it. But, conversely, if I had my sledgehammer equipped, I probably wouldn't have gotten that awesome heavy kill. Same thing with the gunboats and the dead ringer. In fact, crafting away my dead ringer and cloak and dagger to get that last piece of metal for a hat forced me to use the old invis watch, and I realized how good it was. Now I switch between them much more often, depending on what the map needs. And that's the first (albeit small) point in random drop's favor. It forces you to get used to the original weapons and standard tactics before moving on to the other weapon. When I get something new, it's newness alone encourages me to try it out for more than one life before making a judgment. If I had gotten the backburner right away, I might not have gotten a chance to master the airblast and learn its power, and I'd be a much worse pyro than I am today. The second point (both my second point and another in its favor) is somewhat related. There have actually been studies that show after a certain point, more choices cause the chooser to feel [i]less[/i] happy with their decision. Case in point: your sledgehammer anectdote. If it didn't exist yet, would you really have gone "Man, I'd give up the weapon I'm holding to be able to destroy that sapper."? Were the drawbacks really worth that cost? With the engineer update and the polycount pack looming on the horizon, I'm actually going to be a little bit thankful for the breathing room that the random drops give me, especially if the polycount weapons have new effects. Otherwise, I feel obligated to number crunch like a WoW nerd to figure out the weapon that's best in each situation, offset by rarity of said situation to find the "Best" weapon to use for my team. By having them drop randomly, it prevents stagnation of your loadout for a long period of time. Lastly, the rarity of a weapon is a large part of their value, and almost the entirety of a hat's value. If I had every hat at the start, I'd lose a lot of the joy I have in wearing any one of them. Just being hit upfront with a backpack full of stuff? It'd be confusing for a long while. For example, DotA. I tried playing the game with friends. Problem is, they wanted to join the tourney scene, so it was pretty much "Hey. *WHAM* Here's your standard beginner's strategy guide. Learn and memorize every character's ins and outs, and at least 3 standard item builds for each one, kthx. Then, we're moving you up to the more advanced and unintuitive stuff, like killing your own creep for fun and profit. You've got a week." Me: ".... O.o ...Wat?" Yeah, safe to say I didn't end up doing well or liking the game much. While starting out with every weapon in TF2 is obviously not even close to the number of choices and permutations I had to face, it faintly has a similar aura about it. Then there's League of Legends, LoL for short. (LAWL, I'M GONNA POINT OUT HOW SIMILAR IT IS TO A COMMONLY USED SAYING BECAUSE THAT'S SO INNOVATIVE AND ORIGINAL... OH WAIT.) *ahem* They have roughly the same number of heroes and items, and add summoner levels, abilities, skill trees, and marks to the mix. Yet I didn't have this problem with the game. Why? First off, the heroes are on a weekly rotation. At lower levels, you only face other neophites, who only play those same ten characters. Therefore, you only need to learn about the heroes that are free this week, and you learn them pretty dang well. Everything else has to be bought. Your choice is limited to what you can buy with the money you earn in the game. Again, if I had to learn every glyph, skill, and hero combination at once, my brain would explode. So yeah. Tl;dr version is basically: Map tokens aren't the same concept as weapon drops. And weapon drops are a fine solution to many problems in TF2, but make even more problems in a select few areas. (I.E. GODDAMMIT WHERE'S MY NEW KUKURI) But just having all of them available at the start opens up a whole new can 'o worms.[/QUOTE] Screw sleep. Mechtroid, you put forth a very elegant arguement. Whilst there are points that I would tend to disagree on, you put it all in such a way that I can begin to see (to an extent!) your point of view. I doubt I will ever be convinced weapons should be held back (and you're smart enough to know I think map tokens are a completely horrible idea!), but I can appreciate the situation a little better. Feel free to PM me when you ever want dem ass eatin' pictures! [QUOTE=Jzzb;23070157]Numenor, what are you doing[/QUOTE] Well, I can hardly do this on TF2F, can I now! :P

Screw it. Im abandoning this thread. ITS VALVES GAME THEY CAN DO WHAT THE FUCK THEY WANT. If they wanted ti make every melee weapon a huge cock they could. who the hell are you other then some guy in a forum complaining about a VIDEO GAME?

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23070200]Screw sleep. Mechtroid, you put forth a very elegant arguement. Whilst there are points that I would tend to disagree on, you put it all in such a way that I can begin to see (to an extent!) your point of view. I doubt I will ever be convinced weapons should be held back (and you're smart enough to know [b]I think map tokens are a completely horrible idea![/b]), but I can appreciate the situation a little better. Feel free to PM me when you ever want dem ass eatin' pictures! Well, I can hardly do this on TF2F, can I now! :P[/QUOTE] Then why'd you make a thread about it?

A friend of mine: "Hey Bunny, we're having an Engineer hoe-down on Cp_garage." Me: "Oh boy, I'll be on right away!" A friend of mine: "Ok, see you soon." Me: Oh wait, I don't have that map token..." [IMG]http://www.testandtry.com/wp-content/uploads/computer-out-window.jpg[/IMG] In other words: "No"

[QUOTE=Uber_Tofu;23070251]Then why'd you make a thread about it?[/QUOTE] As I said, to make a point through satarization. Shockingly, I'm not that dumb- I was attempting to draw a parallel between the availability of maps, and restricted access to weaponry, and why there seem to be differeing staces of both. OK, sleep, God damn it I get too wrapped up in all this...

[QUOTE=Uber_Tofu;23070251]Then why'd you make a thread about it?[/QUOTE] Since you seem incapable of reading the bolded parts in the OP; [QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23068601][B]Well, I didn't think I'd need to do this, but, whatever, people can't tell satire. This is a joke.[/B][/QUOTE]