This isn't skill we're talking about, Wolf532. We're talking about a weapon that well over exceeds its purpose as an area denial tool, and it must be nerfed to appeal to both sides.
Now go shove a sticky bomb up your ass, and pull the second trigger, please.
[QUOTE=Wolf532;45196917]You act like he's firing nukes holy shit. He maybe gets 1 sticky off a rocket jumping soldier before the soldier fucking shits all over him. Scout can dodge his stickies with ease if he's a good scout. Demoman is counterable, you just have to not-be potato tier.[/QUOTE]
This might work in 1v1, but if he's accompanied by his team then good luck with that. The Heavy nerf was a lot more unnecessary honestly.
The blast radius and damage is insane so rather than nerfing the damage ramp-up they should nerf the huge blast radius.
Not everyone plays competitive either.
[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;45196931]People are already having a stickybomb argument, we don't need the "IT'S THE DEGREASER'S/AXTINGUISHER'S FAULT" argument going on as well.[/QUOTE]
If you had used the Axtinguisher in the days of old when the Backburner had no compression blast, or even trying to use it today with the Phlogistonator, you'd know just how difficult the Axtinguisher is to really use.
You'll notice that when you throw that M2 into the equation the weapon becomes leagues better at what it's advertised to do. The Degreaser isn't the problem, the Axtinguisher isn't the problem. People need to get their heads out of their asses to realize what the actual problem is.
Before anyone tries to chastise me, the compression blast is a good thing. Being able to counteract and manipulate incoming projectiles to assist in closing or making distance is a skillset that greatly benefits the Pyro's capabilities and strategic use. It's the manner in which it affects players that's the culprit. It affecting players isn't the root problem, but the way it does it.
There's no real argument left to be made regarding this. At this point I just feel like a broken record.
[QUOTE=Steel & Iron;45196326]Will this mean people are going to start asking for reverting the changes to Heavy and Pyro? I sure hope not.[/QUOTE]
So we're waiting on Heavy now.
A blast nerf would be an acceptable tweak to the mechanic, I think. It would force the Offensive Demos to actually aim in reward for quick, immense damage, while still keeping things the same for the Defensive Demos.
Demoman tears have magical buffing properties.
Its plainly impossible to tell exactly how many people "liked" the stickybomb nerf and how many "disliked" it, due to online communities being only a fraction of how many people actually play the game. While, yes i agree the nerf was too much, the Stickybomb launcher still needs something to help. It can be nigh impossible to find a middle ground on any weapon fix really, people still comment how "crappy" or "OP" it is, when really it all depends on the person who uses it against the person he plays against. I play with a person on my server with a Pain Train with over 3k kills on it, and he uses it well.
no matter what they do, there will be people like wolf and others who will simply reject any change done to the stickies because they will refuse to accept changes to their precious little shit, even if it proves to not only ram up the weapon's mechanic but also the skill ceiling of the weapon, btoh as its user and its potential victim.
The real problem now with the Demoman besides the sticky bomb launcher is the Tide Turner. Sure, it is a new and shiny weapon, but the full recharge on kill in conjunction with the insane turning and minor resistances makes him nearly hard to counter unless you interrupt his charge (compression blast, Natasha, explosive or FaN knockback).
Nemesis must be shitting himself at the nerf revert.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;45196991]If you had used the Axtinguisher in the days of old when the Backburner had no compression blast, or even trying to use it today with the Phlogistonator, you'd know just how difficult the Axtinguisher is to really use.
You'll notice that when you throw that M2 into the equation the weapon becomes leagues better at what it's advertised to do. The Degreaser isn't the problem, the Axtinguisher isn't the problem. People need to get their heads out of their asses to realize what the actual problem is.
Before anyone tries to chastise me, the compression blast is a good thing. Being able to counteract and manipulate incoming projectiles to assist in closing or making distance is a skillset that greatly benefits the Pyro's capabilities and strategic use. It's the manner in which it affects players that's the culprit. It affecting players isn't the root problem, but the way it does it.
There's no real argument left to be made regarding this. At this point I just feel like a broken record.[/QUOTE]
It's true that the airblast play a big role in the problem as well. But whilst I know some people dread the tactic known as Puff N Sting, that ability got some very strict limits. In order to pull it off, you need to be able to actually blast the person into something to keep them in place and close enough to sting. Meaning in open space you wont be able to do it properly. The switchspeed on the Degreaser on the other hand, lets you sting people fast in any given situation.
Again, since I apaprently didn't make it clear enough, I didn't find the Axtinguisher nerf unfair, and it was maybe needed either way. But I do feel it's out of context and with odd timing... I think they should have played around with the Degreaser first, since that one creates a more broad problem, then see how things play out. Is the Axtinguisher still a problem after that? Then go ahead and nerf it, I wont mind, since I already ambush with it most of the time anyway.
I guess what really bothers me is no change have been made to the Degreaser, not yet anyway.
[QUOTE=Gentleman Cat;45197039]The real problem now with the Demoman besides the sticky bomb launcher is the Tide Turner. Sure, it is a new and shiny weapon, but the full recharge on kill in conjunction with the insane turning and minor resistances makes him nearly hard to counter unless you interrupt his charge (compression blast, Natasha, explosive or FaN knockback).[/QUOTE]
I would think an increased charge time would help, so if you miss that one person, your chain falls apart and you have to wait quite a bit to start again (or go back to your base and get a recharge)
[QUOTE=Metaru;45197028]no matter what they do, there will be people like wolf and others who will simply reject any change done to the stickies because they will refuse to accept changes to their precious little shit, even if it proves to not only ram up the weapon's mechanic but also the skill ceiling of the weapon, btoh as its user and its potential victim.[/QUOTE]
The skill ceiling was not raised by the previous nerf, it just made the sticky launcher a pretty shit weapon for anything other than traps. Taking away almost all of a class' offensive capabilities is a pretty good reason to reject a nerf. Most people don't reject the change just because it's a change, most of the complaints were that the nerf was too drastic and went the wrong way in nerfing the demoman.
Now a change like blast radius ramp up would raise the skill ceiling. Would not complain about a nerf like that, as demo would still be powerful but harder to master.
I think the main problem with the Stickybomb Launcher is the contest of what the players want it to be, and what Valve wants it to be. Valve clearly intended the Stickybomb Launcher to be this strong defensive "trap" weapon. Where players quickly found out it's even more effective as an in-combat weapon.
With the recent nerf Valve tried to force it into the trap role, which upsets most players since they love the combat aspect of it. That's obviously why they did ramp up time, instead of touching their massive blast radius, which they have to compensate for the giant doors in TF2 when trapping.
Valve just need to accept that, the Stickybomb Launcher cannot be both the pinnacle of in-combat and trapping situations at the same time, and they should go with what the players want and love about it at this point.
Like lots of people already mentioned, the blast radius should be reduced or have some ramp up mechanic. By doing that, Valve would accept that the Stickybomb got to lose some trapping potential. However, this is where unlocks comes into the picture. The Scottish Resistance should keep the massive blast radius, because the Scottish Resistance pretty much is what the classic was meant to be, but mostly weren't used for.
I only play sniper on TF2. I never play demoman and I can definitely say the nerf was unnecessary.
As silly and illogical as it sounds, you just need to walk towards a sticky spammer to kill him. 99% of them always prepare for you to run away and that's how you die. Really just try when the moment is right, run straight towards a sticky spammer. An extremely rewarding and sort of humorous kill.
That and as crude as it sounds, I really think the whole hate about sticky spammers is people who are to inexperienced (nooby) to deal with them.
If the sticky launcher was 100% traps only, and things like the tide turner around. You might as well rename the demoman to swordsman because I see way more demoknights than sticky launcher users. Doing anything to make the sticky launcher weaker would just do that make that more signifcant.
If they want a trap designed demo. Make the scottish resistant more appealing, like the post above me. Make it do 20% more damage or some other wildcard attribute so it's not just sitting in peoples inventories as potential scrap.
Thanks for the revert valve. I'd almost forgotten what it feels like to get my poop pushed in.
[t]http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/577899631233914048/26C8F5F55886EC00C8F80B859AB9320C8EC87636/[/t]
Oh, and his shiny killstreak sticky launcher had "M1+M2" as its description. Hilarious!
[QUOTE=Gentleman Cat;45196980]Now go shove a sticky bomb up your ass, and pull the second trigger, please.[/QUOTE]
lol, why are you being so aggressive.
[QUOTE=Benvil;45197217]I think the main problem with the Stickybomb Launcher is the contest of what the players want it to be, and what Valve wants it to be. Valve clearly intended the Stickybomb Launcher to be this strong defensive "trap" weapon. Where players quickly found out it's even more effective as an in-combat weapon.
With the recent nerf Valve tried to force it into the trap role, which upsets most players since they love the combat aspect of it. That's obviously why they did ramp up time, instead of touching their massive blast radius, which they have to compensate for the giant doors in TF2 when trapping.
Valve just need to accept that, the Stickybomb Launcher cannot be both the pinnacle of in-combat and trapping situations at the same time, and they should go with what the players want and love about it at this point.
Like lots of people already mentioned, the blast radius should be reduced or have some ramp up mechanic. By doing that, Valve would accept that the Stickybomb got to lose some trapping potential. However, this is where unlocks comes into the picture. The Scottish Resistance should keep the massive blast radius, because the Scottish Resistance pretty much is what the classic was meant to be, but mostly weren't used for.[/QUOTE]
Problem to the whole "valve intended it as a defensive weapon" argument is that in the developer commentary, it's clearly stated that it was intended to be used as both a defensive weapon for trapping and an offensive weapon for pushing with lots of damage. Now, they may not have intended for it to be as powerful as it is, but they definitely did acknowledge it's ability to be used offensively and certainly did not intend for it to be exclusively defensive.
imo, the whole "defense class should only be for defense" argument doesn't hold much ground considering we have unlocks like the gunslinger, and how often you see heavys pushing in games.
[QUOTE=DrCactus;45197248]lol, why are you being so aggressive.[/QUOTE]
It's late, I'm tired of his delirious rant of competitive gaming in a hat simulator where everyone needs the skill to counter a drunk black man, the stickies have been reverted, and most of all, I'm tired. Good night.
[QUOTE=TheLocoMofo;45197258]Problem to the whole "valve intended it as a defensive weapon" argument is that in the developer commentary, it's clearly stated that it was intended to be used as both a defensive weapon for trapping and an offensive weapon for pushing with lots of damage. Now, they may not have intended for it to be as powerful as it is, but they definitely did acknowledge it's ability to be used offensively and certainly did not intend for it to be exclusively defensive.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure they knew it could be offensive to begin with, no question about that, but what I was getting at is they overtuned it to begin with to compensate for both the roles. The massive blast radius comes from that fact that they need to cover giant doorways, yet this radius also make them way too strong in normal combat.
The difference between today and then is we have unlocks now. They can tune down the Stickybomb Launchers blast radius, since we got the lovely and WAY underused defensive brother of the Stickybomb Launcher, the Scottish Resistance.
I still wish they never added autodetonation to sticky bombs under a Sco-Res user. I think it'd be a far more powerful weapon without it.
To clarify to those that think this would be inconsequential, it'd let a demoman freely hang out in a web of sticky bombs with no consequence, which would make it a ludicrously better defensive/area denial/trap weapon. It might be OP, but at least testing it as an intended mechanic and balancing damage I think could make it excellent and balanced.
From what I recall, the auto-detonation was added due to whining about not being able to sticky jump with it, by a number of players who then quickly abandoned the weapon once the novelty of it wore off, leaving it crappy to those that had used it before the change.
[QUOTE=Game Zombie;45196665]The Grenade Launcher has 6 barrels and only has grenades jammed into one of them.[/QUOTE]
The last two are where he stores his fake scrumpy-filled grenades.
[editline]24th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Benvil;45196907]I wish they would revert the Axtinguisher nerf for the time being as well. I know that sounds like madness, but they should be nerfing/reworking the Degreaser instead, which is the real problem.
I know this sound crazy but... There was a time where we didn't have Degreasers, and back then complaints about the Axtinguisher was not all that common. I personally use the Flame Thrower, so for me the nerf felt uncalled for.
I'm not saying it's out of question that the Axtinguisher should still have some nerf applied. But, they should try to fix the weapon that created the problem in the first place, then see how that would work out for the Axtinguisher afterwards.[/QUOTE]
No, the Axtinguisher has been a broken piece of shit since the Pyro update came out, people were just too busy being pissed at the backburner at the time to make as big a hullabaloo. I remember when the Backburner gave you 50 extra HP, and people went fucking [B]ballistic[/B] over that. I used to play with the Control Point boys back during those days, and pretty much every instance of a Pyro bumping into someone was met with 'AAAGH FUCK, BACKBURNER.'
And now the tables have turned and the Backburner is a useless piece of shit, the Axtinguisher never got anything to make it less overpowered. It's a worthwhile nerf. I don't think Pyro is inherently OP, but I think the Axtinguisher can go fuck off. The Degreaser is totally fine IMO, as it offers a genuinely useful buff in exchange for reduced power in your primary, but combined with the pre-patch Axt. it was insanity. Only getting minicrits now means it's back to an acceptable level, especially since it still requires you to get into melee radius.
This is why Valve needs to start using the TF2 Beta again.
I don't get why people are telling me that getting close to a Demoman is an instant counter when he can either pull out a highly powerful melee weapon or fire stickies directly at my trajectory, on the off chance that I'm not already dead.
It feels like valve took a hammer to a hornet;s nest on this one. Almost seems like the easiest move would have been to not address the situation. Guess they do sort of care about the game.
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
I am very excited to craft taunts.
I still think they overnerfed it back then.
But now its just back to overpowered, and sticky spammers are running rampant.
Though with how it was nerfed, I was starting to feel like Soldier was op.
After the update, things have been really buggy.
In a recent match, I just pulled out my Rancho Relaxo and at least 12 players had their game crashed right after that.
I feel so bad right now :(
[t]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/3299199706081841167/BF4C1D10D7AEBAAFB67D626F1C9D1936F2C360C0/1024x768.resizedimage[/t]
[QUOTE=crabxtz;45198264]After the update, things have been really buggy.
In a recent match, I just pulled out my Rancho Relaxo and at least 12 players had their game crashed right after that.
I feel so bad right now :(
[t]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/3299199706081841167/BF4C1D10D7AEBAAFB67D626F1C9D1936F2C360C0/1024x768.resizedimage[/t][/QUOTE]
Doubt that's related, I've seen similar drops before the patch.
Good. The idea behind the nerf wasn't bad, but the execution was terrible.
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