I think they can lower the radius on regular launcher and make people give scores a chance.
Yeah i think if they would lower the radius normal launcher would be used offensively meanwhile scores would be used defensively
Also add in SL stickies to break when an explosion happens
[QUOTE=Corporal Yippie;45196464]vocal minority's happiness > game balance
good to know our priorities are straight[/QUOTE]
Yeah they should have never nerfed them in the first place.
Vocal minorities in action, nothing more. Anyone who knows two shits about balance could observe the destructive consequences of the nerf.
[QUOTE=Corporal Yippie;45196464]vocal minority's happiness > game balance
good to know our priorities are straight[/QUOTE]
I've never seen Stickies get complained about as much as Heavies/Engineers except on SPUF. Ingame it's always been "FUCKING HEAVIES" or "GODDAMN ENGINEERS".
Revert the heavy nerf then.
[QUOTE=Netsc;45198723]Revert the heavy nerf then.[/QUOTE]
I wish the heavy nerf was from when you started spinning the barrel of the minigun, not from when you start firing.
[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;45198748]I wish the heavy nerf was from when you started spinning the barrel of the minigun, not from when you start firing.[/QUOTE]
It would make the Brass Beast be unaffected by the nerf. It would have been better to bring back the old spin up time for the miniguns and slightly reduce the spin up time for the brass IMO.
The heavy nerf was the least needed of the bunch, in my opinion. The heavy has spin up time anyway, and the noise from the spin up is enough to help prevent ambushes. (Tomislav doesn't count seeing as they've already nerfed that to irrelevance)
Finally I can play sticky and Jumper :quagmire:
You know what really made me angry with that sticky nerf?
Mvm. Not only that one of the most powerful defensive weapons was almost useless, but sticky bomb launcher is THE ONLY FUCKING WEAPON ROBOTS DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE.
[QUOTE=Plaffy46;45198984]You know what really made me angry with that sticky nerf?
Mvm. Not only that one of the most powerful defensive weapons was almost useless, but sticky bomb launcher is THE ONLY FUCKING WEAPON ROBOTS DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE.[/QUOTE]
That merely prevents you from doing panic attack in case some bots get through, still good even with that nerf. And SR masterrace.
[QUOTE=Drsalvador;45197725]
The Degreaser is totally fine IMO, as it offers a genuinely useful buff in exchange for reduced power in your primary, [/QUOTE]
Giving airblast and disgusting combination abilities to all Pyro's weapons in exchange for making his worst weapon do very slightly less damage and afterburn is not fine at all
The Axtinguisher was not the problem - it's not easy to use with most of Pyro's primaries. Airblast and Pyro in general is really the problem but if we're talking straight weapons then the Degreaser should've been the one to eat a nerf
[QUOTE=Bynine;45199070]Giving airblast and disgusting combination abilities to all Pyro's weapons in exchange for making his worst weapon do very slightly less damage and afterburn is not fine at all
The Axtinguisher was not the problem - it's not easy to use with most of Pyro's primaries. Airblast and Pyro in general is really the problem but if we're talking straight weapons then the Degreaser should've been the one to eat a nerf[/QUOTE]
I disagree heavily with the Axt. not being the problem and [B]especially[/B] with the notion it's hard to use with his primaries. But I agree that airblast is the most horseshit thing in the game right now. Player control should [B]never[/B] be wrenched away like that. None of the bosses or environmental effects do that, so why should a player be granted that power?
Soldiers already 2-shot light classes in close range by shooting at their feet. Stickies always did a worse job at that. And taking more than 2 shots to kill anything that is not a soldier or a heavy at close range is bad in this game. Seriously, 175 HP classes die to two shotgun shots. Dying to two stickies at close range... Not THAT bad, Grenades do that at medium range.
They should just fix the blast radius.
Oh god, I can imagine valve misunderstand us and just make the explosion particles bigger.
Yes, it's hard to nerf the sticky launcher in a way that it'd still powerful when you're skilled but bad when.. the player is bad.
I like to play demo and I'm okay with them trying to nerf the sticky launcher. The damage ramp-up nerf sounded okay but after I played some more rounds I felt that the sticky launcher was too weak, even when I stayed on middle to very long range and charged my stickes. Changing the damage is the wrong direction I think.
[QUOTE=R.M.T.B.;45196363]How to fix stickybombs
Add a Blast Radius ramp up[/QUOTE]
This would be a better idea since you'd need better aiming and prediction to hit stickies. Skilled players wouldn't be punished too much, but brainless spamming would be.
And that's good. I like to distinguish between two playstyles I see on pub servers:
The first one is the bad one. Demos who just run in, don't stay on range and wildly empty their clip, throwing stickies in all directions and instantly detonating them, hoping that like 50% hit and eventually kill someone. (Especially when they're kritz-ubered. A few well thought shots can kill the whole enemy team but they keep spamming wildly and miss the most shots.) They just don't cause much damage in general, they're actually just trying to get some kills. Exactly this is what people are complaining about and what people call "noob spammers". People like these usually last as long as their clips aren't empty, then they die because they find themselves too near to enemies or they just blow themselves up. And it is frustrating to play against these people because they're not afraid of damaging themselve (which is bad for both sides). And I also think that this should be fixed because there's a way better playstyle to be a lot more efficient for your whole team
(this is the good playstyle now):
Staying on range, behind your team, predict the movement of the enemy crowd and spam those. With spamming I don't mean firing as fast as possible, I mean trying to keep up a continuous attack rate to keep damaging players, trying to hit as many stickies as possible. This way, it's a lot easier for attack classes like Scouts or Soldiers to kill people and to keep enemies away from your team. I know that this is the basic competitive strategy but that doesn't mean that it doesn't apply for pub servers. And this is the point where the damage ramp-up nerf wasn't good. 2 seconds still was too long to cause a fair amount of damage so I'm glad that they reverted it and I'm looking forward to a nerf which keeps this playstyle effective and makes everyone happy. And also to see people trying to be more efficient for their team.
[QUOTE=Wolf532;45196525]Stickies were balanced before the nerf though. A majority of pub players are just bad and don't know how to fight stickies.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wolf532;45196547]I have never had a problem with demoman because I know how to fight them. You just run towards them and kill them. Demo is a glass cannon class that needs protection from his teammates in order to be effective, I don't see what the problem is.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, I also somehow think this way. But this only applies the second playstyle I described above. The best way to kill a demo is ambushing and then quickly moving towards him, you have to abuse his sticky bomb arm time. It's also important too look out what weapon he's using. If he puts out the Greande Launcher, you should fall back again a bit (you can confuse a good Demo with this pretty much, just by clever movement). Of course this needs practice and experience but let's be honest, a lot of people who were complaining about the sticky launcher didn't try this. Still, it doesn't mean that this gives you a free kill, it'll still be hard to fight him if he's good. At this point, Demos usually fall back to the first playstyle I described. And if they fix this, players will get rewarded for their ambush. The goal is to get out of the Demo's range which isn't only to move even more far away but to get closer.
And this is what the sticky launcher nerf should change.
On the other side, most of the default maps are awfully balanced. Just look at dustbowl or goldrush, there are so many chokepoints and narrow spaces in those maps which makes the demoman class overpowered. But that's not classes fault, it's the maps fault. I don't like to play those maps because it's actually not really possible to create a fair and balanced match on those.
So yea.. I really hope the TF2 team at Valve will find a good nerf.
Finally a ballsy move from tf2 team, I thought. And now they reverted it. Might as well give Axtinguisher crits back right away cause now that those spuf babies saw weakness they will whine even more.
[QUOTE=Ripper Roo;45200101]Finally a ballsy move from tf2 team, I thought. And now they reverted it. Might as well give Axtinguisher crits back right away cause now that those spuf babies saw weakness they will whine even more.[/QUOTE]
That "ballsy" move should have gone to the public beta first. It was a move in the wrong direction. I really don't know why they added this to the normal game just to remove it a week later.
Give Axtinguisher back its crits, add a penalty to the Degreaser that changes all crits to minicrits... Although that leaves the Reserve Shooter untouched.
[QUOTE=Steel & Iron;45196386]I bet to craft a random taunt you use 3 hats. Whenever they decide to add it.[/QUOTE]
Or metal. That should fix the low value/metal produced by mass idlers.
[QUOTE=Hat-Wearing Man;45196539]the bigger issue is that they didn't bother fixing the Lochnload's reload again
it has TWO barrels, load one nade in each ffs[/QUOTE]
We're getting there slowly...
[QUOTE=Arthamus;45196597]Bread payload explosion bug seems to have reared its ugly head again.
Or at least just on Badwater
[t]http://puu.sh/9HqiY/5cc2b85565.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
As I understand, any payload map with a hole for the cart to fall into is at risk of this bug, even custom maps.
[QUOTE=Zenamez;45200286]
As I understand, any payload map with a hole for the cart to fall into is at risk of this bug, even custom maps.[/QUOTE]
I thought this problem would be gone after the Love & War update. But no, they still decided for bread to still come out of teleporters.
Either way, hopefully Valve does something about it.
[QUOTE=Zenamez;45200286]As I understand, any payload map with a hole for the cart to fall into is at risk of this bug, even custom maps.[/QUOTE]
IIRC, this 'bug' is caused by the simple fact that payload explosions are triggered by props of any sort (the cart is a prop, atleast once it is off the rails)
furthermore, if you spawned random props into a payload map via console (atleast in the past) you could also trigger the explosions that way
I use stickies when I want to win easy.
[QUOTE=Zenamez;45200286]
As I understand, any payload map with a hole for the cart to fall into is at risk of this bug, even custom maps.[/QUOTE]
Yes, moreover I think any dynamic prop that falls in triggers it, not just the bread. Valve just had to do the brainless fix again where they fix it for one map only, instead of making a check for the prop to be the payload cart.
I bet they made a invisible wall that would block props from falling in or something stupid like that too.
I guess nobody discover it before by dropping a polycount grave in because nobody uses the sets. I think it could work as well.
I remember spawning hl2 sofas everywhere on a server and spawning one in the whole would also trigger it.
Good that they reverted the change, and good that they are looking into alternatives also.
I love the idea of blast range ramp up. For "sticky spam" you'd have to be more accurate to do the current damage, which is nicely skill indexed. And even with a smaller blast radius, kritzkrieg stickies would still be very deadly and capable of sniping medics. It makes more sense to me than a damage nerf/rampup, as it doesn't straight up slow down the demoman's damage output - it just requires more skill in sticky placement.
I can't see a more sensible nerf. It elevates the skill floor of the weapon instead of punishing every caliber of player like the previous nerf. But it'll be interesting to see what they do.
"It has been changed and they'll never undo it." Literally every other comment when it first got the nerf :v:
How small would the radius be at start? Direct hit radius?
is it midair detonation that people have an issue with on the stickylauncher?
cause like something like a smaller blast radius in the air
but keeping it the same on the ground might be an okay thing
that way it stays the same for like traps and stuff like that
[QUOTE=Captain Chalky;45199725]I still feel like the damage scaling is the true way to go because most things just can't be balanced by making them harder to use. Skill and fun should both try stay out balance discussion. (fun almost always and skill having a few exceptions such as the Sniper Rifle)
All Valve had to do is increase the minimum damage by 25-50. It would still reward trapping but airburst Stickies could still be used for combat with success, just not excessively well. That and excluding buildings from the effects of the ramp up.
Maybe the best approach is making them both scale? So that the Stickies are slightly harder to hit and won't two (or one if they are missing a very small amount of health) shot lighter classes, even when aimed with perfection?[/QUOTE]
Uh, skill is a very important aspect of balancing. How can you say it's not? Every weapon/class has to be balanced so that they require some level of skill to effectively use, and some level of skill to effectively counter. Dumbing down a weapon so that skilled players cannot even use it effectively (they're not rewarded for good aim) is not a good way to nerf a weapon. It dumbs down the game as a whole. Making a weapon harder to use is often a good way to balance things because harder to use = less reliability and consistency. With blast radius ramp up, demomen cannot rely on his stickies as much because players can dodge them better and he has to be very consistent to win fights when an enemy closes the gap. If a demoman can hit 100% of his stickies perfectly still, good for him, he has a lot of skill and deserves to win the fight. But for humans, 100% accuracy is impossible and sticky blast ramp up will reduce their ability to spam large areas and win 1v1s even more. If a player has to get good to effectively use a powerful weapon, I feel it's balanced, just like the sniper rifle.
Plus, the blast ramp up wouldn't just make the sticky launcher harder to use, but also make it easier for players to push through demo spam since it will be 1) easier to dodge and 2) less effective at larger area denial. It's not completely about skill. Demoman is a class all about prediction and increasing a player's ability to dodge the blast radius of stickies is huge since it allows for greater unpredictability.
If a demoman can hit you with two perfectly aimed stickies, why does he not deserve his kill? I can two shot you with pipes, loose cannon, rockets, snipers, shotguns, and revolvers with good aim, many of which are easier to land than two perfect stickies. Generally, most weapons that cannot two-shot aren't very good in tf2 (other than heavy and pyro sorta) due to is fast paced nature. Why is it so outlandish that a sticky launcher can do it too with perfect aim?
[QUOTE=Eriorguez;45200165]Give Axtinguisher back its crits, add a penalty to the Degreaser that changes all crits to minicrits... Although that leaves the Reserve Shooter untouched.[/QUOTE]
A penalty like that will just make people stop using the thing at all, and will nerf certain synergy between some weapons for no reason. The massive switch speed is just creating too many problems. If they nerf the Axtinguisher too much, people will just use flaregreaser crits instead. Valve can nerf the Axtinguiher all they want to, and act like it's the problem, but people will continue to use the Degreaser over anything else.
They should just remove the switch speed on the degreaser, or decrease it massively like they had to do with the Tomislavs spin-up time(in which case, why even bother keeping it?), then give it something else, like the old 10% speed boost from the gas jockey set. Then they could possibly loosen up the other downsides, but testing should decide that.
The only problem with this is that it contest with the new Powerjack, but I'd personally prefer to see the healing ability on it back, or maybe something entirely new. I never understood why the Powerjack changed so much in the first place. Did people consider the healing OP? Because the Half-Zatoichi laugh all over it.
Has anyone put the blast radius ramp up idea to the TF2 team yet? It's a hell of a lot better than VALVe's actual 'fix'.
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