Fem Fortress 2- concepts and pics thread - Games

[QUOTE=Dippy;28317314]Or to simply draw the player's attention TO them, which is very well accomplished with the Heavy being so big and loud. Also, she's designed to be just as attention grabbing. Big, loud and bouncy. Boingy boingy boingy.[/quote] If you listen to the developer commentary, I believe it is (or maybe there was a book on TF2 desgin...), they talk a lot about various aspects of the design, like darkening the characters and the like. I'm pretty sure they something about the scale of players and whatnot too, and it's not just to make the Heavy the center of attention. [quote]And?[/quote] :colbert: [quote]And seeing as how that's your only gripe and your reasoning behind it is shaky... dude, come on. You even tried to pull the "BUT FAT IS UNHEALTHY" argument on me. This is about you and your knee-jerk repulsion to her body. Nothing more.[/quote] Well then let it be known that I don't have anything against fat women as a whole. My reasoning behind the griping about your character is that you're trying to pass it off as a legitimate concept, yet you butcher half the design that's gone into the characters, simply because you want your concepts to be more appealing to you.

[QUOTE=biodude94566;28317370]It's different don't question his design![/QUOTE] There's a good reason why this forum is called "Facepunch." I don't like the way I drew the minigun either, actually. I didn't actually draw it in the original sketch, as I didn't have a reference at the time, so I had to make it look like she was holding something and then draw it in Photoshop. I'M SO ASHAMED WAAAUH.

[QUOTE=Dippy;28317380]Again, the criteria for "Gold member" obviously has no bearing on one's demeanor. Where are the mods in this place, are they... oh god, don't tell me you guys are the mods.[/QUOTE] Yes I am a mod. Do my bidding. My name is in yellowish brown letters, that means I am superior to you.

[QUOTE=biodude94566;28317388]If you listen to the developer commentary, I believe it is (or maybe there was a book on TF2 desgin...), they talk a lot about various aspects of the design, like darkening the characters and the like. I'm pretty sure they something about the scale of players and whatnot too, and it's not just to make the Heavy the center of attention.[/quote] Watched it. I still don't get how looking like an upright gorilla is going to draw people's attention to him any more than someone with a body type like the one I gave the design. [quote]Well then let it be known that I don't have anything against fat women as a whole.[/quote] You have no idea what a relief that is. [quote]My reasoning behind the griping about your character is that you're trying to pass it off as a legitimate concept, yet you butcher half the design that's gone into the characters, simply because you want your concepts to be more appealing to you.[/quote] I just said I was doing my own designs. I don't see how you can call these "legitimate" if I don't work for Valve and this isn't for a contest or anything... oh wait lol according to Vman I was serious about my employment. This is truly a matter of dire importance. If anything has truly pissed me off about this whole ordeal, it's that I've wasted three hours arguing about something so petty and asinine when I could be sleeping. I hope I haven't scared off Humblerbee, I actually DID want to see his response... [editline]27th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=The Vman;28317428]Yes I am a mod. Do my bidding. My name is in yellowish brown letters, that means I am superior to you.[/QUOTE] Thank god you're not in charge. I instantly have more respect for whoever runs this place... though I haven't seen them.

[QUOTE=Dippy;28317484]Watched it. I still don't get how looking like an upright gorilla is going to draw people's attention to him any more than someone with a body type like the one I gave the design.[/quote] The point isn't to draw attention to them as a whole - it's up to the player to decide who's the most important target (like Medics, who are much smaller than the Heavy). The point is to draw attention to a specific area on the character. Namely his weapon. [quote]I just said I was doing my own designs. I don't see how you can call these "legitimate" if I don't work for Valve and this isn't for a contest or anything... oh wait lol according to Vman I was serious about my employment.[/quote] You asked for critiques, initially about everything, and continued, even if sarcastically, to the point that I can only assume that you believe these are concepts of high enough caliber to be in the game. The point I've been trying to make is that they're not, and to guide you towards getting the unique characters you want, while still working within the style of the game. [quote]If anything has truly pissed me off about this whole ordeal, it's that I've wasted three hours arguing about something so petty and asinine when I could be sleeping. I hope I haven't scared off Humblerbee, I actually DID want to see his response...[/quote] Go to bed, it's probably well past your bed time. [quote]Thank god you're not in charge. I instantly have more respect for whoever runs this place... though I haven't seen them.[/QUOTE] Don't worry, that respect will be shattered soon enough.

He's either a troll or just ridiculously retarded.

Wow, loads of drama. Dippy, don't try to be flame bait. Chill, accept the criticism, and try your best to follow advice given. The other female models maybe just male models turned female, but Alia's female spy has gone through a lot of criticism and now look at the wonderful model we have. She had people to help her with some of it, like voices and modelling help. If you are more willing to listen to criticism and more accepting to help people are trying give you (like good advice), you'll find facepunch is a great place.

[QUOTE=Ian;28317666]He's either a troll or just ridiculously retarded.[/QUOTE] Personally I'm leaning towards the latter.

[QUOTE=Dippy;28317380]Again, the criteria for "Gold member" obviously has no bearing on one's demeanor[/QUOTE] Actually yeah, it does, because you can't get perma'd if you want to be a gold member :downs:

[img]http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1341/hoovy.jpg[/img] There is your criticism.

[quote]You asked for critiques, initially about everything, and continued, even if sarcastically, to the point that I can only assume that you believe these are concepts of high enough caliber to be in the game. The point I've been trying to make is that they're not, and to guide you towards getting the unique characters you want, while still working within the style of the game.[/quote] I guess I wasn't expecting "She is too fat change it change it" to be one of the criticisms I'd recieve. I didn't think someone would mistake a purely superficial complaint for a legitimate critique on how to improve my art. [quote]Go to bed, it's probably well past your bed time.[/quote] Good advice. Hurry now, go tell the mods you've been trolled by a big, mean scary troll so I can wake up to being banned! Go on, you've got seniority behind you, nobody's going to question it. [quote]Don't worry, that respect will be shattered soon enough.[/QUOTE] It already has been. [QUOTE=biodude94566;28317677]Personally I'm leaning towards the latter.[/QUOTE] Obviously anyone who posts a woman who's [i]that fat[/i] must be a troll, despite the fact that several times I've tried to tell you guys to stop so this doesn't get locked. And of course you'd agree with him. As far as I see, the only thing separating you from other trolls is that you've been here for a while. [QUOTE=Oblivious1;28317669]Wow, loads of drama. Dippy, don't try to be flame bait. Chill, accept the criticism, and try your best to follow advice given. The other female models maybe just male models turned female, but Alia's female spy has gone through a lot of criticism and now look at the wonderful model we have. She had people to help her with some of it, like voices and modelling help. If you are more willing to listen to criticism and more accepting to help people are trying give you (like good advice), you'll find facepunch is a great place.[/QUOTE] You know what'd be great? If the criticism had started out by being constructive, rather than these weasels calling it "terrible" and then everyone else jumping on the Hate train with 'em. I could definitely see the criticism being easier to take if they hadn't rejected it outright, yeah. Yeah. [editline]27th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Ian;28317714]Actually yeah, it does, because you can't get perma'd if you want to be a gold member :downs:[/QUOTE] Suddenly this all makes sense. No wonder this place has such a bad reputation. You shouldn't have members who can't be banned. Christ, now I have even less respect for the moderation here.

[QUOTE=Dippy;28317860]I guess I wasn't expecting "She is too fat change it change it" to be one of the criticisms I'd recieve. I didn't think someone would mistake a purely superficial complaint for a legitimate critique on how to improve my art.[/quote] Maybe you shouldn't have forgone the TF2 art style, then. [quote]Go on, you've got seniority behind you, nobody's going to question it.[/quote] Damn straight I do. [quote]It already has been. [/quote] Good. [quote]Obviously anyone who posts a woman who's [i]that fat[/i] must be a troll, despite the fact that several times I've tried to tell you guys to stop so this doesn't get locked. And of course you'd agree with him.[/quote] What. [quote]You know what'd be great? If the criticism had started out by being constructive, rather than these weasels calling it "terrible" and then everyone else jumping on the Hate train with 'em. I could definitely see the criticism being easier to take if they hadn't rejected it outright, yeah. Yeah.[/quote] So just because I start with a bad reply makes everything afterward automatically nullified? Joy. [quote]Suddenly this all makes sense. No wonder this place has such a bad reputation. You shouldn't have members who can't be banned. Christ, now I have even less respect for the moderation here.[/QUOTE] No, you can't be a gold member if you've been perma'd, not that you can't be perma'd if you're gold.

[QUOTE=Dippy;28317860]You know what'd be great? If the criticism had started out by being constructive, rather than these weasels calling it "terrible" and then everyone else jumping on the Hate train with 'em. I could definitely see the criticism being easier to take if they hadn't rejected it outright, yeah. Yeah.[/QUOTE] There was a bit of constructive-ness amongst the thread. Even with a "terrible" being the only piece of criticism, try to find out why it is terrible on your own. I've been writing a lot of fiction/fan-fiction in the past (out of boredom of course), there was even this monthly fan-fic contest in some other forum I go to, and I lost badly on like my first and second try, so I tried to understand why it was so bad and looked at the others because no one would tell me why. Now I usually end up in 2nd place and at two times, 1st place (one was tied with spam). You have to accept that something is wrong with your concept and try to understand by studying yours and other works that have been well acclaimed, like TF2's default models and Alia's female spy.

[QUOTE=The Vman;28317722][img_thumb]http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1341/hoovy.jpg[/img_thumb] There is your criticism.[/QUOTE] Wow, now was that so hard? -Will fix the hair -Will fix the eyes -That's the shadow from her toothpick, not a scar. -It is a flat plane. Her breasts are heavy and you can't really see her collarbone. -Again, the breasts are heavy. One is resting on the arm, the other's being pulled down by gravity. -And once again, the breasts are low due to their weight. She's middle-aged, things tend to sag around that time. -I fucked it up because I hadn't drawn the minigun, because I didn't have a reference for it when I drew it. I had to add it in Photoshop which is one of the reasons it looks so awful. The next drawings of her will not include the minigun. (and you'd know that if you had read my post... oh, wait, you were too busy sucking your own ego) -I will fix the hands. -Yes, they are horrible cylinders. -I don't like how the legs look either. Next version will be a front and side view, so that won't be an issue. I was trying to show her hoisting the minigun and bending at the legs, but I don't do center of gravity well. -The same way a pyromaniac in a sweltering, flame resistant suit can survive a high-intensity brawl in a desert without passing out, how a steer-fucker from Texas can build a completely self-operating sentry gun and how a French man can make himself invisible and create a flawless disguise of another player, all three of them with 60's era technology. IT'S A CARTOON. I got the whole "no fat chicks" thing from what'shisface. Maybe you can put your dick away for five seconds and realize that this is a fucking video game where people beat each other up with fish. Besides, you're laboring under the anachronistic idea that fat people can neither move or be active and still be fat. Perhaps in between kicking ass and taking names she enjoys chugging a bottle of crisco. Fuck, I dunno. Oh, and thanks for the criticism. It's helpful to see these things pointed out to me, and I'll work on fixing them when I draw this character again. Hope you didn't pull a muscle doing it because I might ask for another. [editline]27th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Oblivious1;28317984]There was a bit of constructive-ness amongst the thread. Even with a "terrible" being the only piece of criticism, try to find out why it is terrible on your own.[/quote] I think I'm still at the point where I need to be shown. [quote]I've been writing a lot of fiction/fan-fiction in the past (out of boredom of course), there was even this monthly fan-fic contest in some other forum I go to, and I lost badly on like my first and second try, so I tried to understand why it was so bad and looked at the others[/quote] [quote]because no one would tell me why.[/quote] BOY, I'LL BET THAT'S FRUSTRATING. [quote]Now I usually end up in 2nd place and at two times, 1st place (one was tied with spam).[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Oblivious1;28317984]You have to accept that something is wrong with your concept and try to understand by studying yours and other works that have been well acclaimed, like TF2's default models and Alia's female spy.[/QUOTE] I'll do that. Thank you for the advice, I really do appreciate it.

[I]Ignoring[/I] your persistent snide attitude. [QUOTE=Dippy;28318048]\-That's the shadow from her toothpick, not a scar.[/quote] It doesn't register as a toothpick. Like, at all. [quote]-It is a flat plane. Her breasts are heavy and you can't really see her collarbone.[/quote] Necks are round. there's nothing that indicates the connection between the neck and the chest. [quote]-Again, the breasts are heavy. One is resting on the arm, the other's being pulled down by gravity. -And once again, the breasts are low due to their weight. She's middle-aged, things tend to sag around that time.[/quote] Her breasts aren't sagging. They are attached too low. Notice how the top of the breast curves into the chest. If they were sagging, it would be a straight line getting pulled down. Also, no need to ask for another, already got it done: [img]http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2963/scomo.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=biodude94566;28317976]Maybe you shouldn't have forgone the TF2 art style, then.[/quote] Oh, I can still try it. [quote]What.[/quote] Trolls don't ask people to stop derailing their thread so they don't get banned. [quote]So just because I start with a bad reply makes everything afterward automatically nullified? Joy.[/quote] No. I didn't JUST impliment you, I said weasels, as in more than one. But yeah, not only did you jump right in with the negativity, you're still going. [quote]No, you can't be a gold member if you've been perma'd, not that you can't be perma'd if you're gold.[/QUOTE] Ahahaha, amazing. I'm not the one who got that wrong, you even quote my post which has nothing about that in it, and you still blame me. A-fucking-mazing. Do you ever shut up? I know I said I was already done replying to you once, but I think this'll be it. I'm not going to argue about trivialities when all you want to do is feed your ego. HEY, THINK I'LL TAKE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND OUT OF THIS ONE.

[QUOTE=Dippy;28318238] Ahahaha, amazing. I'm not the one who got that wrong, you even quote my post which has nothing about that in it, and you still blame me. A-fucking-mazing. Do you ever shut up? I know I said I was already done replying to you once, but I think this'll be it. I'm not going to argue about trivialities when all you want to do is feed your ego. HEY, THINK I'LL TAKE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND OUT OF THIS ONE.[/QUOTE] Yeah, you did get it wrong. Stop being so defensive and own up, you read my post wrong. Fucking deal with it like a man and stop bitching about every little thing. Also; if you hate FP, its community, its moderators, etc., then just get out. You're seriously doing everyone a favour, and you're acting like some 12 year old trying to troll. Then of course is the chance that Jimbo might see this thread, lock it, and ban you for not wanting to be here/trolling. I might be wrong, but there is still a chance.

[QUOTE=The Vman;28318231][I]Ignoring[/I] your persistent snide attitude.[/quote] Oh, [i]sniiide attitude![/i] :O!! I'm just replying the way you've been replying to me, but I could see how you'd find it offensive when I do it back to you. Give what you get. You folks need lessons in socialization about as badly as I need lessons in proportion. Good god. [quote]It doesn't register as a toothpick.[/quote] Cool. Nix the toothpick. [quote]Like, at all.[/quote] "Snide attitude," he says. Haha. [quote]Necks are round. there's nothing that indicates the connection between the neck and the chest.[/quote] Ah! I see what you mean now. I'll keep that in mind. [quote]Her breasts aren't sagging. They are attached too low. Notice how the top of the breast curves into the chest. If they were sagging, it would be a straight line getting pulled down.[/quote] I'll work on that for the next image. [quote]Also, no need to ask for another, already got it done: [img_thumb]http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2963/scomo.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE] -She's hitting blood that hasn't been colored yet. Because it's a sketch! -I'll fix the headset. -Explain the bat/finger thing to me. Looks like I'll be going reference hunting. -I'll fix the shoulders. -I'll fix the wrist. -NOSE- Is it her nose, or are her lips just drawn so it looks like the nose is crooked? Either way, I'll try to fix it. -The lips of people of African descent tend to be slightly more prominent. Maybe I've just drawn it weird. -LEGS: I was trying to do the impossible and work perspective into her pose, and it obviously didn't work. You're right, I'll fix the legs.

[QUOTE=Dippy;28318048](and you'd know that if you had read my post... oh, wait, you were too busy sucking your own ego)[/quote] "I already said it before, so he MUST have not read my post! There is NO way that he could just be bringing it up to make sure I saw the point!" [quote]-The same way a pyromaniac in a sweltering, flame resistant suit can survive a high-intensity brawl in a desert without passing out, how a steer-fucker from Texas can build a completely self-operating sentry gun and how a French man can make himself invisible and create a flawless disguise of another player, all three of them with 60's era technology. IT'S A CARTOON. I got the whole "no fat chicks" thing from what'shisface. Maybe you can put your dick away for five seconds and realize that this is a fucking video game where people beat each other up with fish.[/quote] "Let's ignore every point they made about the artistic style of TF2, just so I can continue fulfilling my BBW fantasies!" [quote]Oh, and thanks for the criticism. It's helpful to see these things pointed out to me, and I'll work on fixing them when I draw this character again. BOY, I'LL BET THAT'S FRUSTRATING.[/quote] Because I was in no way critiquing your character. [QUOTE=Dippy;28318238]Oh, I can still try it.[/quote] Not without major overhauling in design, no. [quote]Trolls don't ask people to stop derailing their thread so they don't get banned.[/quote] No, the sentence made no sense. At all. Whatsoever. [quote]No. I didn't JUST impliment you, I said weasels, as in more than one. But yeah, not only did you jump right in with the negativity, you're still going.[/quote] You [i]implemented[/i] me? Into WHAT? And I'm still going with the negativity because you won't step down from your god damned high horse and admit that you're wrong. [quote]Ahahaha, amazing. I'm not the one who got that wrong, you even quote my post which has nothing about that in it, and you still blame me. A-fucking-mazing. Do you ever shut up?[/quote] Ian posted that you cannot attain Gold membership [i]and[/i] be permabanned. You misunderstood this to the fact that Gold members cannnot be banned, as seen with your quote "You shouldn't have members who can't be banned.". I replied by quoting the section of your post in which you said such, and attempted to alleviate your confusion by clarifying the matter at hand. At which point [i]you[/i] accuse [i]me[/i] of being wrong, despite the fact that I have been here for [i]5 years[/i], whilst you have been here for [i]1 day[/i]. :colbert: [quote]I know I said I was already done replying to you once, but I think this'll be it. I'm not going to argue about trivialities when all you want to do is feed your ego. HEY, THINK I'LL TAKE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND OUT OF THIS ONE.[/QUOTE] Go to bed, already. ...Hey guys, is [noparse]:byewhore:[/noparse] still a bannable offense? [editline]27th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Ian;28318271]Then of course is the chance that Jimbo might see this thread, lock it, and ban you for not wanting to be here/trolling. I might be wrong, but there is still a chance.[/QUOTE] Would it be asking too much for this to happen?

[QUOTE=Ian;28318271]Yeah, you did get it wrong. [/quote] I beg to differ. [QUOTE=Ian;28317714]Actually yeah, it does, because you can't get perma'd if you want to be a gold member :downs:[/QUOTE] [quote]No, you can't be a gold member if you've been perma'd, not that you can't be perma'd if you're gold.[/quote] [quote]Stop being so defensive and own up, you read my post wrong. [/quote] Except you made the statement that he corrected. [quote]Fucking deal with it like a man and stop bitching about every little thing.[/quote] As soon as you admit that… fuck it, you and I know you're trolling me here. [quote]Also; if you hate FP, its community, its moderators, etc., then just get out. [/quote] Why should I leave just because almost everyone else has been as welcoming as a pitbull with rabies? [quote]You're seriously doing everyone a favour, and you're acting like some 12 year old trying to troll.[/quote] And you're not? [quote]Then of course is the chance that Jimbo might see this thread, lock it, and ban you for not wanting to be here/trolling. I might be wrong, but there is still a chance.[/QUOTE] I can only hope Jimbo sees that I'm not the one leading this thread off track and that I'm not the one trolling people. Given how the non-moderator and senior members act, though, he'd probably ban and unban, then reban me for kicks.

[QUOTE=biodude94566;28318373] [b]VMan posted that you cannot attain Gold membership [i]and[/i] be permabanned.[/b] You misunderstood this to the fact that Gold members cannnot be banned, as seen with your quote "You shouldn't have members who can't be banned.". I replied by quoting the section of your post in which you said such, and attempted to alleviate your confusion by clarifying the matter at hand.[/QUOTE] Actually, t'was me, but it's coo'.

[QUOTE=Ian;28318413]Actually, t'was me, but it's coo'.[/QUOTE] That was my bad, sorry. I'll fix it.

[QUOTE=Dippy;28318048]I'll do that. Thank you for the advice, I really do appreciate it.[/QUOTE] Well that felt like a kick to the balls. Anyways, I remember seeing an interview with Robin Walker and when he was asked about female models, I think he said they're not going to do it 'cause of the work required and such. I'm not sure. If possible, can someone fetch it.

[QUOTE=Dippy;28318409]*uninformed, and not well thought out words*[/QUOTE] Okay so let me get this straight. You make it a point that you don't like FP, that the moderators are slack, that the community is a bunch of "trolls" and "assholes". And you call ME the troll when you're being extremely defensive to everything anyone says, plus you pick apart each section of their post to make yourself look, what, intelligent? Oh please. Low-grade starting troll if I've ever seen one, not to mention that you joined this month.

[QUOTE=Oblivious1;28318439]Well that felt like a kick to the balls.[/quote] I hope not! You've actually been one of the most considerate people I've spoken to yet, next to Humblerbee. [quote]Anyways, I remember seeing an interview with Robin Walker and when he was asked about female models, I think he said they're not going to do it 'cause of the work required and such. I'm not sure. If possible, can someone fetch it.[/QUOTE] I'd like to see that. [editline]27th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Ian;28318457]Okay so let me get this straight. You make it a point that you don't like FP, that the moderators are slack, that the community is a bunch of "trolls" and "assholes". And you call ME the troll when you're being extremely defensive to everything anyone says, plus you pick apart each section of their post to make yourself look, what, intelligent? Oh please.[/QUOTE] "You call us trolls, and then all of a sudden you call US the trolls?!" Yes, that was a fine summary of my post to you. Very well done. Actually, I wouldn't call you trolls. I'd just call you all extremely rude and egotistical. AND THAT'S MY JOB LOLOLOL Ending drama in 3... 2...1.

[QUOTE=Dippy;28318409]I beg to differ. Except you made the statement that he corrected.[/QUOTE] Ok, so that you get this 100%, I am going to step you through the sentence. [quote]Actually yeah, it does, because you can't get perma'd if you want to be a gold member :downs:[/quote] "[...]you cannot get permabanned if you want to be a gold member" [you cannot get permabanned] <-> [if you want to be a gold member] [if you to be a gold member] [you cannot get permabanned] If you [b]want[/b] to be a gold member, you cannot get permabanned. Notice the [b]want[/b]. That means that "wish to attain", in this context. "If you wish to attain gold membership, you cannot be permabanned." Maybe this still doesn't make enough sense for you. Let me add on a little to Ian's sentence! "If you wish to attain gold membership, you cannot be permabanned [during your time as a blue (or "ordinary", "basic") member]" Do you get it now? [editline]27th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Ian;28318457]not to mention that you joined this month.[/QUOTE] He's joined within the last 48 hours, in fact!

[QUOTE=Dippy;28318462] "You call us trolls, and then all of a sudden you call US the trolls?!" Yes, that was a fine summary of my post to you. Very well done. [/QUOTE] "I know what you are but what am I!?" That is exactly what you just said, in layman's terms. Wow I just give up on you, you're just past the point of no return when it comes to metal retardation.

[QUOTE=Ian;28318515]"I know what you are but what am I!?" That is exactly what you just said, in layman's terms. Wow I just give up on you, you're just past the point of no return when it comes to metal retardation.[/QUOTE] What the hell are you talking about? You don't even know what I'm saying.

[QUOTE=biodude94566;28318501] He's joined within the last 48 hours, in fact![/QUOTE] Ohohoho, fucking WOW. [editline]27th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Dippy;28318538]What the hell are you talking about? You don't even know what I'm saying.[/QUOTE] Like how you didn't know that I was saying that if you wanted to get Gold Member, you couldn't get banned?

[QUOTE=Ian;28318547]Like how you didn't know that I was saying that if you wanted to get Gold Member, you couldn't get banned?[/QUOTE] That's so much funnier the second time around. I must be mentally handicapped if I can't come up with clever humor like yours. Listen, you keep that material fresh, and I'll see you all later. Or not. No heartache on my part either way. Edit: Setting Biodude and Ian on ignore. I don't know why I hadn't done that sooner, but it's probably for the best.