The demoman is absolutely invincible now. - Games

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19183632]Low skill ceiling? Ahaha, hope you're a troll. Pyro has a lot more to do than w+m1 if you're any good with him.[/QUOTE] Still, a skilled pyro's loads less effective than a skilled demoman, soldier or scout. That's why you don't see them at competetive matches.

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19183632]Uh, what about the links? They just reaffirmed my argument.[/QUOTE] To get the same base damage as the shovel, you have to be at roughly 150 health. To be able to run at speeds comparable to a scout, you have to be at 40 health. That does not confirm your argument at all.

[QUOTE=rofflewoffles;19183683]Still, a skilled pyro's loads less effective than a skilled demoman, soldier or scout. That's why you don't see them at competetive matches.[/QUOTE] Show me support for your argument, so far it's just wild claims. To the latter statement, correlation does not equal causation. [editline]11:22PM[/editline] [QUOTE=biodude94566;19183728]To get the same base damage as the shovel, you have to be at roughly 150 health. To be able to run at speeds comparable to a scout, you have to be at 40 health. That does not confirm your argument at all.[/QUOTE] Yes it does

Really though, I remember the first time I encountered a demoman with the targe and eyelander. We were both alone on the bridge of 2fort and I had like 180 hp. He comes charging at me from the other side and I unload my 4 direct hit rockets on him as he charges at me, and eventually kills me. If you dont think its abnormal that a scottish cyclops can take 4 strong rockets to the face and still be able to cut somebodys heads off, somethings wrong with you.

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19183740]Yes it does[/QUOTE] You argue that a full health equalizer does the same damage as the shovel. It does not.

[QUOTE=biodude94566;19183776]You argue that a full health equalizer does the same damage as the shovel. It does not.[/QUOTE] I've already said that I only thought this because the description doesn't mention a base health dmg nerf, learn to read.

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19183740] Yes it does[/QUOTE] Your argument was that the Equalizer did just as much damage at full health as the shovel. That was completely wrong. So no, it actually refutes your argument.

[QUOTE=Timebomb757;19183835]Your argument was that the Equalizer did just as much damage at full health as the shovel. That was completely wrong. So no, it actually refutes your argument.[/QUOTE] How was that my argument? My argument was that equalizer onehits most classes and makes you move as fast as a scout.

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19183740]Show me support for your argument, so far it's just wild claims. To the latter statement, correlation does not equal causation. [/QUOTE] [url]http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792794[/url] [quote]Classes & Maps The basic 6man class format is two Scouts, two Soldiers, a Medic, and a Demoman. Most people identify themselves with one class and practice that one class.[/quote] [url]http://www.ubercharged.net/2009/08/08/competitive-tf2-part-one-basicslogistics/[/url] [quote]The majority of competitive matches are played in the 6v6 format. Each team has six players, and they are bound to a maximum two of each class, except one demoman and one medic. Other formats, such as 5v5, 7v7, 8v8, and 9v9 are also played, but they are far rarer. The 6v6 format is what most of the serious leagues use, and most competitive teams play 6v6 exclusively; the other formats will not be discussed in detail in this guide. In general, 6v6 teams consist of a demoman, a medic, two scout/utility players, and two soldiers.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19183791]I've already said that I only thought this because the description doesn't mention a base health dmg nerf, learn to read.[/QUOTE] So what do the links prove for you? You're wrong on the damage count, you're wrong on scout speed (he doesn't run at scout speed, but just below), and to be anywhere near one hitting anything, you need to be at crazy low health, at which point whoever is on the receiving end of the attack deserves to die for not killing a <40 health soldier before he hit them.

[QUOTE=rofflewoffles;19183853][url]http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792794[/url] [url]http://www.ubercharged.net/2009/08/08/competitive-tf2-part-one-basicslogistics/[/url][/QUOTE] Did you read the second part of my post? [editline]11:29PM[/editline] [QUOTE=biodude94566;19183862]So what do the links prove for you? You're wrong on the damage count, you're wrong on scout speed (he doesn't run at scout speed, but just below), and to be anywhere near one hitting anything, you need to be at crazy low health, at which point whoever is on the receiving end of the attack deserves to die for not killing a <40 health soldier before he hit them.[/QUOTE] I wasn't wrong on the damage count, he DOES onehit most classes. Oh, wow, I was off by 20 speed units, what a great fallacy. :downs: Uhh, it happens easier than you'd think- especially if the soldier knows how to flank.

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19183874]Did you read the second part of my post?[/QUOTE] Did you read any of the counterarguments by dozens of people telling that you are wrong and that you should check your "facts" before opening your mouth?

[QUOTE=rofflewoffles;19183921]Did you read any of the counterarguments by dozens of people telling that you are wrong and that you should check your "facts" before opening your mouth?[/QUOTE] Noone told me that correlation does not equal causation. You're still not reading my posts before posting, check your own facts.

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19183431]And I don't, even though I can land every flaregun shot, shotgun shell, and/or flame particle effect?[/QUOTE] If you can do this, you should have no problem taking down an eyelander demo or an equalizer soldier with low health.

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19183874]Did you read the second part of my post? [editline]11:29PM[/editline] I wasn't wrong on the damage count, he DOES onehit most classes. Oh, wow, I was off by 20 speed units, what a great fallacy. :downs: Uhh, it happens easier than you'd think- especially if the soldier knows how to flank.[/QUOTE] You have to be at [b]58 health[/b] before you can one hit even an unbuffed scout. [b]20[/b] before you can one hit an unbuffed medic.

[QUOTE=YoYoYoDude;19183970]If you can do this, you should have no problem taking down an eyelander demo or an equalizer soldier with low health.[/QUOTE] You're just plain wrong. If the demo has the targe, he will take LESS than half dmg. [editline]11:35PM[/editline] [QUOTE=biodude94566;19183975]You have to be at [b]58 health[/b] before you can one hit even an unbuffed scout. [b]20[/b] before you can one hit an unbuffed medic.[/QUOTE] And? The fact that you can move as fast as the fastest class AND do massive dmg should be proof enough of it being OP.

Oh, and you think demoman wasn't easy beforehand? Eyelander and the chargin targe is a blast, but it's easier then mouse1 + w on a pyro.

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19183740]To the latter statement, correlation does not equal causation.[/QUOTE] What else would explain their absence in competitive matches?

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19184016]You're just plain wrong. If the demo has the targe, he will take LESS than half dmg. [editline]11:35PM[/editline] And? The fact that you can move as fast as the fastest class AND do massive dmg should be proof enough of it being OP.[/QUOTE] Do you even get the point of either of these weapons? You are basically describing what they were made to do. There is not a single thing OP about either of them.

[QUOTE=ZestyLemons;19184071]Oh, and you think demoman wasn't easy beforehand? Eyelander and the chargin targe is a blast, but it's easier then mouse1 + w on a pyro.[/QUOTE] Mouse1 + w on a pyro nowadays will get you killed from range or tanked by a targe demo. You need to use airblast and axetinguisher versus the hardy classes, too.

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19183945]Noone told me that correlation does not equal causation. You're still not reading my posts before posting, check your own facts.[/QUOTE] So you're trying to say that pyros aren't used in competetive matches because of their lower scaling with skill, but because of some other unmentioned factor? Like their general easy-to-pick-up and easy-to-counter nature?

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19184016]And? The fact that you can move as fast as the fastest class AND do massive dmg should be proof enough of it being OP.[/QUOTE] [b]He can't move as fast as scout, period.[/b] The scout moves at ~400 units per second, while a max speed Soldier can only run at ~384 units per second. If you can't kill a scout that's at <40 health quick enough to where he can't hit you once, you deserve to die.

[QUOTE=YoYoYoDude;19184112]Do you even get the point of either of these weapons? You are basically describing what they were made to do. There is not a single thing OP about them.[/QUOTE] Ok, so if they implemented a weapon that banned everyone you pointed it at instantly but it was DESIGNED to do that and was "specialized" (even though it affects everyone) it would be OK? [editline]11:39PM[/editline] [QUOTE=biodude94566;19184128][b]He can't move as fast as scout, period.[/b] The scout moves at ~400 units per second, while a max speed Soldier can only run at ~384 units per second. If you can't kill a scout that's at <40 health quick enough to where he can't hit you once, you deserve to die.[/QUOTE] I'm off by less than 20 units, you're grasping at straws. Refute another point.

Cannot use CnT and SR at the same time :)

[QUOTE=rofflewoffles;19184127]So you're trying to say that pyros aren't used in competetive matches because of their lower scaling with skill, but because of some other unmentioned factor? Like their general easy-to-pick-up and easy-to-counter nature?[/QUOTE] I'm saying that just because that aren't popular in competitive TF2 doesn't mean they're bad.

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19184186]I'm saying that just because that aren't popular in competitive TF2 doesn't mean they're bad.[/QUOTE] They're still not as good at "getting shit done" as the "harder" classes. But this argument is completely irrelevant and we should all just focus on pointing out how wrong you are :smile:

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19184186]I'm saying that just because that aren't popular in competitive TF2 doesn't mean they're bad.[/QUOTE] I disagree. Players are the best at finding the most effective ways to play.

[QUOTE=rofflewoffles;19184218]They're still not as good at "getting shit done" as the "harder" classes. But this argument is completely irrelevant and we should all just focus on pointing out how wrong you are :smile:[/QUOTE] Says who? They can basically nullify pre-update workhorse classes' weapons and toast/axetinguish everything else effectively.

[QUOTE=Noob_Reaper;19184150]I'm off by less than 20 units, you're grasping at straws. Refute another point.[/QUOTE] Well, let's refute the point of it being OP: You have what is essentially a <40 health scout with a buffed bat. He has to be within melee range of you to do any damage. At range, it's piss-easy to deal with him. If you let him get inside melee range, or are unable to deal with him before he gets in melee range, you have every right to be killed. It's like dying to a backstab - you deserve the death because you aren't paying enough attention to your surroundings or just plain suck.

[QUOTE=ThePuska;19184226]I disagree. Players are the best at finding the most effective ways to play.[/QUOTE] Yeah, Valve listened to the players on the Sandman and look what happened.