Team Fortress 2 Lore Discusssion: We make sense out of a hat-simulator - Games

[QUOTE=cha0s;48601302]cross post from MUS edit: we were also talking about respawing being canon on MUS and i mentioned: if respawing isn't canon, why is it shown that people DIED during the gravel wars(such as the blu team in meet the spy)?[/QUOTE] They dance around the issue because it would ruin the story and seem really contrived. [editline]2nd September 2015[/editline] Like, if respawning were canon in Meet the Spy why shouldn't the BLU Spy just stab everybody? Then they'll all respawn, good as new, with no more RED spy.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48601334]They dance around the issue because it would ruin the story and seem really contrived.[/QUOTE] well i think the reason respawing isnt mention in the comics is because there respawn machine was destroyed by gray mann, my theory is a mix of: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XpuJYaJtEc[/url] & [url]http://respawn.timdenee.com/[/url] [editline]2nd September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48601334]They dance around the issue because it would ruin the story and seem really contrived. [editline]2nd September 2015[/editline] Like, if respawning were canon in Meet the Spy why shouldn't the BLU Spy just stab everybody? Then they'll all respawn, good as new, with no more RED spy.[/QUOTE] remember that there is respawn wave time? and mabey that took place in some form of arena+ctf mode

[QUOTE=cha0s;48601366]well i think the reason respawing isnt mention in the comics is because there respawn machine was destroyed by gray mann, my theory is a mix of: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XpuJYaJtEc[/url] & [url]http://respawn.timdenee.com/[/url][/QUOTE] Still doesn't explain why anybody should care about death in TF2. Think about it, in Expiration Date, the entire plot is that they think they have three days to live. Why should that matter at all if they're basically immortal? The very idea of respawn would remove the stakes from any canon story anyway. Gray only appeared at the end of the gravel wars, anyway. [QUOTE=cha0s;48601366] remember that there a respawn wave time? and mabey that took place in some form of arena+ctf mode[/QUOTE] Listen to yourself. The story doesn't take place in any kind of "mode", it's a story. Quit trying to shove game mechanics into a story they don't fit into.

dont take gameplay mechanics too seriusly when considering the lore. just because mario can die x amounts of time ingame doesnt mean there is a surplus of clones to back him up.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48601397]Still doesn't explain why anybody should care about death in TF2. Think about it, in Expiration Date, the entire plot is that they think they have three days to live. Why should that matter at all if they're basically immortal? The very idea of respawn would remove the stakes from any canon story anyway. Gray only appeared at the end of the gravel wars, anyway.[/QUOTE] good point... maybe the respawn machines are only active when there in battle... idk [editline]2nd September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48601397]Still doesn't explain why anybody should care about death in TF2. Think about it, in Expiration Date, the entire plot is that they think they have three days to live. Why should that matter at all if they're basically immortal? The very idea of respawn would remove the stakes from any canon story anyway. Gray only appeared at the end of the gravel wars, anyway. Listen to yourself. The story doesn't take place in any kind of "mode", it's a story. Quit trying to shove game mechanics into a story they don't fit into.[/QUOTE] the gun mettle coin says "i love arena mode"

[QUOTE=cha0s;48601422]good point... maybe the respawn machines are only active when there in battle... idk [editline]2nd September 2015[/editline] the gun mettle coin says "i love arena mode"[/QUOTE] The gun mettle coin is not a valid canon source of information. It doesn't make any sense, why would Pauling give out custom-printed coins when the Mercs only care about the guns? The last tier coin is 100% australium as well, what could possibly possess Pauling to give those out?

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48601471]The gun mettle coin is not a valid canon source of information. It doesn't make any sense, why would Pauling give out custom-printed coins when the Mercs only care about the guns? The last tier coin is 100% australium as well, what could possibly possess Pauling to give those out?[/QUOTE] i meant the REASON the coin said that was because Abraham Lincoln loves Arena mode, the thing that you said doesn't exist in the lore... edit: from sniper vs. spy update day 2: "i say this to you with the unvarnished factualism of plain talk: I love Arena Mode" -abraham lincoln

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48601397]Still doesn't explain why anybody should care about death in TF2. Think about it, in Expiration Date, the entire plot is that they think they have three days to live. Why should that matter at all if they're basically immortal? The very idea of respawn would remove the stakes from any canon story anyway.[/QUOTE] I get what you are saying, but don´t tell me nobody died at all during the gravel wars. Like, the two snipers spent the entire war just taking potshots at each other and missing? The two spies just running around and fail stabbing? The soldiers and demomen lobbing rockets and grenades and killing no one? The same basic reasoning applies even if there is only one team. [I]Somebody[/I] had to die at some point, or it really isn´t a war as much as an eternal stalemate. Oh, wait...

[QUOTE=DrVincentWolf;48601543]I get what you are saying, but don´t tell me nobody died at all during the gravel wars. Like, the two snipers spent the entire war just taking potshots at each other and missing? The two spies just running around and fail stabbing? The soldiers and demomen lobbing rockets and grenades and killing no one? The same basic reasoning applies even if there is only one team. [I]Somebody[/I] had to die at some point, or it really isn´t a war as much as an eternal stalemate. Oh, wait...[/QUOTE] It's simply ignored by the canon. There is no canon explanation. It's a plothole, but one that everybody involved in creating the TF2 canon is quite happy to let exist. Notice how there's an army of soldiers dying in MtM, even though the Poopy Joe files clearly state there are only 18 mercs. It's completely inconsistent, but it's also unimportant to the plot so it doesn't matter. I'd much sooner suspend my disbelief on the point of a bunch of hypothetical out of camera deaths that don't really make sense, but are never addressed, than some contrived explanation that removes any last bit of risk or interest in the story. [editline]2nd September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=cha0s;48601504]i meant the REASON the coin said that was because Abraham Lincoln loves Arena mode, the thing that you said doesn't exist in the lore... edit: from sniper vs. spy update day 2: "i say this to you with the unvarnished factualism of plain talk: I love Arena Mode" -abraham lincoln[/QUOTE] Update pages aren't canon either. Look at how Downtown Teufort is an flaming urban area on the Pyromania page, but a harmless small town in the comics.

Respawn explains everything, makes total sense within the universe and all the inconsistencies it may create can be explaned by the respawn as of itself or by some shenanigans related to how exactly it works. WHY would you NOT consider it canon (besides developers never confirming it canon which, given how obvious and legitimate of an explanation it is, they have a total right not to do)? You make my logic's back inch!

[QUOTE=eugensiman;48602067]Respawn explains everything, makes total sense within the universe and all the inconsistencies it may create can be explaned by the respawn as of itself or by some shenanigans related to how exactly it works. WHY would you NOT consider it canon (besides developers never confirming it canon which, given how obvious and legitimate of an explanation it is, they have a total right not to do)? You make my logic's back inch![/QUOTE] Because it completely conflicts with the behavior of nearly every character, and makes the whole story far less interesting. Why were the Mann brothers using a tech to stop them from aging when they could have just died and respawned? Why not respawn after Gray killed them? If the Admin was the only one with the respawn tech, why not hook them up to it, when her entire plan hinged on neither of them every dying? Why would Gray be messing with australium at all when he could just use the respawn devices? If he supposedly destroyed them, then he had access to them, so why not rework them to replicate him? He's a genius, we've established that. He could probably have developed the tech himself when push comes to shove. If the tech was destroyed, why wouldn't the Admin build the mercs more respawn devices? Why didn't she use it for herself? The entire plot converges on the point of the mortality of several of the characters, so a respawn device would completely contradict everything, particularly when those characters all have enormous resources at their disposal. Expiration Date in particular contradicts canon respawn a hell of a lot, as the whole plot is based around the mercs thinking they're going to die. Nobody should give a shit about death when they can reappear 20 seconds later with all of their wounds healed. If they've got the mercs' genome on record, those tumors wouldn't transfer to the clone. And how could they be constantly dying and being reborn, without a single one noticing that their buddies were walking back into battle after death? How would these devices even work? They can't be using Australium, because the Admin has been hoarding that stuff for her entire life. She's not going to waste the lot of it to keep some mercs alive when she can just hire more. We haven't seen any kind of tech like this in TF2 at all. It's cloning people, creating living tissue out of thin air. If the Admin can do that, why not just create a clone army to do everything she needs? Why send 9 mercs arbitrarily off to deal with the situation, when she can send 9000? Gray wouldn't be able to stack up to an army of clones that she can send at him infinitely at no cost to her. Perhaps the biggest hole in the respawn hypothesis is the fact that we know the mercs have families and lives outside of their work. If there's hundreds of each of the classes off doing different work, how's the Mundy household not getting hundreds of calls from hundreds of Snipers? The respawn hypothesis creates dozens more plotholes than it answers, and also takes away any threat and risk from the story. We don't need to worry about the mercs getting attacked by bloodsuckers, because the admin can just spawn in some more. No need to worry about the sniper getting shot, just wait 20 seconds. It's a shitty plotpoint that makes the story far less interesting.

Last time I read the respawn theory it stated that a respawn machine was created by the engie using information he got while working on the life extension machines but he didn't work for the Mann Brothers until after the gravel pit wars started anyways so it's a bit hard for him to have created a respawn machine using technology he hadn't actually gotten yet.

People are still arguing over the respawn theory? I thought the answer was simple, and blatantly answered in "Catch-Up Comic." [IMG]http://media.steampowered.com/apps/tf2/catchup/images/comic/1024x768/009.jpg[/IMG] I mean, here Hale describes Team Fortress 2 as a video game in the TF2 universe, a "Documentary Video Game." All of the "Meet the" videos are part of a "PR" thing, as described by Miss Pauling in 'Meet The Director." [IMG]http://media.steampowered.com/apps/tf2/meetthedirector/director_02.jpg[/IMG] So, we can assume the basis of the video game was taken from the footage of these specific mercs, people probably enjoyed the films, I believe heavy's sisters in one comic were fawning over the images of sniper and spy, they've become something of celebrities after these videos. So they based the video games characters in Team Fortress 2 after the mercs. Now, whether this specific comic (catch up) is cannon. I have no clue. But to me, this theory makes the most sense. No one ever interviewed the BLU team, the little we see of them shows that they look, sound, and act just like the other team, but in my own eyes, this is probably Valve just not having the resources to explain in enough time.However, judging that Engie is on BLU, it wouldn't be out of the question for him to discover ways to make clones in his own way, and I suppose that does make sense. Seeing as the only "copies" of RED mercs are seen on blu, like in Meet The Medic. But they aren't the Mercs, they don't function as well, fight as well, and Valve implies that red is the better team as is. It's a simple fact of nature, ripoffs usually aren't as good as the real thing. Anyway, that's what I always just assumed. Correct me if I'm horribly wrong. But RED=The Mercs, BLU=Clones makes sense to me. Especially due to the fact that the Administrator never asked for any of the BLU mercs as far as I remember. Team Fortress 2 is, as many have said, just a game. The comics tell the story that inspired the game, and are in a completely different reality than the game we all play.

Wasn't the PR thing just a sham, and the tapes were destroyed? edit: and i think it's implied heavy told his sisters about spy and sniper

I'm pretty sure the Sniper and Spy thing with the Heavy's sisters was just a jab at parts of the community where the Sniper and Spy specifically are "popular".

[QUOTE=Anderan;48630522]I'm pretty sure the Sniper and Spy thing with the Heavy's sisters was just a jab at parts of the community where the Sniper and Spy specifically are "popular".[/QUOTE] Probably, just an oversight on my part, haven't read the comics in a while. As for what _charon said, I don't recall reading that at the time of this post. Yet looking over it again, you're right. Hm. Still though, maybe some time after the gravel wars the tapes were discovered intact or something, either way. I don't think red is a bunch of clones.

[QUOTE=eugensiman;48602067]Respawn explains everything, makes total sense within the universe and all the inconsistencies it may create can be explaned by the respawn as of itself or by some shenanigans related to how exactly it works. WHY would you NOT consider it canon (besides developers never confirming it canon which, given how obvious and legitimate of an explanation it is, they have a total right not to do)? You make my logic's back inch![/QUOTE] No, it doesn't make any sense. There is actually more evidence that supports respawning doesn't exist and is simply a non-canon game mechanic. The Mann brothers are all dead for good. The soldier 'permanently' lost his hand (as in it hasn't actually healed). The sniper died temporarily, and his reaction suggests he hadn't done that before. The characters clearly fear dying. In the latest comic the medic says reviving the sniper is his "crowning medical achievement" and then says he "defied modern medicine and bought you back to life". As for the idea of them all being clones or something like that, the medic betraying his team suggests there are actual teams the characters are on and the ones on the opposite team aren't just another version of that person. The administrator says "18 perfect idiots" in one of the comics. The classes mention almost joining the other team. It seems there are 18 different people - but we only know 9 [I]characters[/I]. That's all they are, one of the sets of classes - in the comics they switch team colours all the time, but i don't think that is meant to have any actual relevance to the team they are on. They're just representations of that class using the already established characters, the colours are irrelevant. Switching team colours in the comics doesn't seem to actually mean anything. The team colours have not been canonically decided, and i doubt they will be. It seems clear that respawning does not exist. A more likely explanation is that in game and in the videos, you aren't meant to be [I]the[/I] engineer/spy/heavy/whoever, you're just supposed to be a person representing the version of that class on that team. As we're not going to get 9 more unique characters for the other team, you're one of the already established characters. It's just a gameplay mechanic that doesn't actually mean anything, there's no canon explanation for it beyond both sides hired similar classes.

[QUOTE=nightlord;48660420]No, it doesn't make any sense. There is actually more evidence that supports respawning doesn't exist and is simply a non-canon game mechanic. The Mann brothers are all dead for good. The soldier 'permanently' lost his hand (as in it hasn't actually healed). The sniper died temporarily, and his reaction suggests he hadn't done that before. The characters clearly fear dying. In the latest comic the medic says reviving the sniper is his "crowning medical achievement" and then says he "defied modern medicine and bought you back to life". As for the idea of them all being clones or something like that, the medic betraying his team suggests there are actual teams the characters are on and the ones on the opposite team aren't just another version of that person. The administrator says "18 perfect idiots" in one of the comics. The classes mention almost joining the other team. It seems there are 18 different people - but we only know 9 [I]characters[/I]. That's all they are, one of the sets of classes - in the comics they switch team colours all the time, but i don't think that is meant to have any actual relevance to the team they are on. They're just representations of that class using the already established characters, the colours are irrelevant. Switching team colours in the comics doesn't seem to actually mean anything. The team colours have not been canonically decided, and i doubt they will be. It seems clear that respawning does not exist. A more likely explanation is that in game and in the videos, you aren't meant to be [I]the[/I] engineer/spy/heavy/whoever, you're just supposed to be a person representing the version of that class on that team. As we're not going to get 9 more unique characters for the other team, you're one of the already established characters. It's just a gameplay mechanic that doesn't actually mean anything, there's no canon explanation for it beyond both sides hired similar classes.[/QUOTE] I've yet to write a wall of text in response to Mort Stroodle, since some of his arguments are actually quite reasonable, but, nevertheless, I'll bring up some minor points from there in this post: 1. The Mann bros were neither "switched" to respawn nor anybody needed them respawned. They were incredibly useless and, after Mann Co. winning the bid for organizing mercenary battles, had been existing solely for paper reasons (mercs must have legitimately different employers). I'm sure Gray killed them only to show Admin that he means business. In the latest comics Soldier and Sniper are fired and out of the enclosed battle zones, hence, it make total sense that they won't respawn at a time, and of course, knowing that now they are going to die for reals, they will fear it. This can be further solidified either by explaining how respawn may exactly work or suggesting that Admin could have sabotaged the technology once Gray has taken over Mann Co. On the topic of Medic "defying modern medicine", again, we don't know how respawn may exactly work. It probably is glorified cloning, not actually reviving freshly decaying bodies. And even then, Medic didn't invent respawns nor they are a part of what he could have called "modern medicine", so he has all the right to say so. btw, seeing as Expiration Date plot is thrown around as an evidence of no respawns out there, let me remind you how weird that short is with its setting. Miss Pauling supports only one team, outright helping them to kill the enemy mercs instead of working secretly for both sides, battles don't happen within enclosed disguised facilities, mercs have a risk of getting into jail because of killing their counterparts and briefcase suddenly becomes an object Administrator personally doesn't want stolen, instead of a pointless objective like it used to, as if the whole Gravel War has gone out of Admins control, with mercs fighting outside of maps and, of course, not being respawned. Keep in mind that the short takes place in 1970-1971, practically during the same year the Gray suddenly shows up on the scene, and it starts making a lot of sense. As if Helen decided to drop managing the mercs and quickly come up with some renewed schemes against a steadily growing shadow of her old nemesis. 2. Medic didn't betray RED and go to BLU, he betrayed TF2 and went to TFC, so in this case the argument holds no water. Mentioning that they are going to join the other team is merely an insult and nothing more. Voicelines can be interpreted both sides, e.g., we can also point out that the classes amention killing the very same person multiple times. "18 perfect idiots" doesn't necessarily mean that there's no clones, it's just a number of people involved in Admins plans. 3. What goes next is a mish-mash of argumentation, but, as far as I could have figured, you've suggested that throught the 60s there were multiple teams with mercs flowing within them, it just happened so that we have only 9 of them established. First, that's quite an accomplishment on their side, both employers' and employees'. The first ones managed to continiously dig out the best of the best in the world, sometimes startling across yet another crazy scientist, gun obsessed russian hulk or some black scottish cyclops, while the latters have survived 6 years of constant firefights making it out without a scratch against an evenly constant stream of new proffesionals . Second, every single piece of TF2 media establishes the 9 mercs we know and love as the never changing roaster of late 60s. Nowhere it is implied otherwise, nowhere it is said that there's more mercs than meets the eye. Heck, the only evidence that could have suggested so is the "18 perfect idiots" randomly thrown phrase which can be interpreted either way. Yet again. Without respawn theory we [I]can't[/I] explain Gravel Wars and not make it incredibly stupid. Within the respawn theory we [I]can[/I] explain every other inconsistency and not make it incredibly stupid. Only slightly stupid. Sometimes.

[QUOTE=eugensiman;48661026]Yet again. Without respawn theory we [I]can't[/I] explain Gravel Wars and not make it incredibly stupid. Within the respawn theory we [I]can[/I] explain every other inconsistency and not make it incredibly stupid. Only slightly stupid. Sometimes.[/QUOTE] You're not supposed to explain the Gravel Wars in any sensible way. It's a world where Australians are made hyper-intelligent and at the same time batshit crazy by a metal, shooting rockets at your feet propels you up into the air without blowing your legs off, and a man was born able to talk and kidnapped then raised by eagles.

[QUOTE=Anderan;48662419]You're not supposed to explain the Gravel Wars in any sensible way. It's a world where Australians are made hyper-intelligent and at the same time batshit crazy by a metal, shooting rockets at your feet propels you up into the air without blowing your legs off, and a man was born able to talk and kidnapped then raised by eagles.[/QUOTE] Yes! But why no respawn then?! Especially if it even can make sense, and is the closest equivalent to making sense, within its own universe!

[QUOTE=eugensiman;48662755]Yes! But why no respawn then?! Especially if it even can make sense within its own universe![/QUOTE] But it doesn't make sense, everything contradicts it.

[QUOTE=eugensiman;48662755]Yes! But why no respawn then?! Especially if it even can make sense, and is the closest equivalent to making sense, within its own universe![/QUOTE] Not having any other explanation doesn't make it make any sense. People have explained several times why the respawn theory doesn't make any sense. It also all makes sense when you don't dig too deeply into something that doesn't have any deeper explanation.

[QUOTE=Anderan;48662788]People have explained several times why the respawn theory doesn't make any sense.[/QUOTE] Sadly, a lot of them were wrong. Up to the point most of what "contradicts" respawn theory can be explained within the very theory itself. The points rased by nightlord a couple of posts ago are one of the most common ones and I tried to argue them in a quickie succesive fashion (gotta right that text of wall finally). What Stroodle wrote on the 8th page was, in all honesty, the first well put argumentation against the respawn theory I've ever seen. And even then, what he's been calling "the biggest plothole" in it is barely one. And still, there's a difference between comically nonsensical (rocketjumps and Australians), which does make sense in the setting, and logically nonsensical (the very same mercenaries taking potshots at each other for 6 years straight on). While we can allow ourselves not explaining respawn technology fully (but I'm going to do it anyway sooner or later), we can't make it so Gravel Wars, the focal part of the setting, becomes completely ludicrous.

[QUOTE=eugensiman;48662810]Sadly, a lot of them were wrong. Up to the point most of what "contradicts" respawn theory can be explained within the very theory itself. The points rased by nightlord a couple of posts ago are one of the most common ones and I tried to argue them in a quickie succesive fashion (gotta right that text of wall finally). What Stroodle wrote on the 8th page was, in all honesty, the first well put argumentation against the respawn theory I've ever seen. And even then, what he's been calling "the biggest plothole" in it is barely one. And still, there's a difference between comically nonsensical (rocketjumps and Australians), which does make sense in the setting, and logically nonsensical (the very same mercenaries taking potshots at each other for 6 years straight on). While we can allow ourselves not explaining respawn technology fully (but I'm going to do it anyway sooner or later), we can't make it so Gravel Wars, the focal part of the setting, becomes completely ludicrous.[/QUOTE] I always had this handcannon that I got from here a while back that the mercs are just the best of the best at their general specialty, and the giant waves were made of budget merc people akin to the "engineers" in the Blood Brothers.

[QUOTE=eugensiman;48661026]I've yet to write a wall of text in response to Mort Stroodle, since some of his arguments are actually quite reasonable, but, nevertheless, I'll bring up some minor points from there in this post: 1. The Mann bros were neither "switched" to respawn nor anybody needed them respawned. They were incredibly useless and, after Mann Co. winning the bid for organizing mercenary battles, had been existing solely for paper reasons (mercs must have legitimately different employers). I'm sure Gray killed them only to show Admin that he means business.[/quote] No, we've clearly seen that she wants them alive and working against each other. Remember how the Admin's predecessor paid off the engi to make sure that neither of them died? Why even bother putting the brothers into a stalemate if she only need the mercs? She has money, she can pay them off. [quote] In the latest comics Soldier and Sniper are fired and out of the enclosed battle zones, hence, it make total sense that they won't respawn at a time, and of course, knowing that now they are going to die for reals, they will fear it. [/Quote] That doesn't make any sense. If they're being cloned like you say, they could be cloned regardless of whether or not they die at a specific spot. [quote] This can be further solidified either by explaining how respawn may exactly work or suggesting that Admin could have sabotaged the technology once Gray has taken over Mann Co. [/quote] Why on earth would she sabotage a technology that is actively useful to her in every way, without recreating it for her own uses? It's not like she doesn't have resources. [quote] On the topic of Medic "defying modern medicine", again, we don't know how respawn may exactly work. It probably is glorified cloning, not actually reviving freshly decaying bodies. And even then, Medic didn't invent respawns nor they are a part of what he could have called "modern medicine", so he has all the right to say so. [/quote] The medic thing certainly isn't a dealbreaker, but the medic does seem weirdly fixated on bringing someone back from the dead, given that you're suggesting he sees it happen dozens of times every single day. [quote] btw, seeing as Expiration Date plot is thrown around as an evidence of no respawns out there, let me remind you how weird that short is with its setting. Miss Pauling supports only one team, outright helping them to kill the enemy mercs instead of working secretly for both sides, battles don't happen within enclosed disguised facilities, mercs have a risk of getting into jail because of killing their counterparts and briefcase suddenly becomes an object Administrator personally doesn't want stolen, instead of a pointless objective like it used to, as if the whole Gravel War has gone out of Admins control, with mercs fighting outside of maps and, of course, not being respawned. Keep in mind that the short takes place in 1970-1971, practically during the same year the Gray suddenly shows up on the scene, and it starts making a lot of sense. As if Helen decided to drop managing the mercs and quickly come up with some renewed schemes against a steadily growing shadow of her old nemesis. [/quote] Don't know where you're getting the idea that expiration date takes place after Redmond and Blutarch die. They immediately put the mercs to work fighting the robots when the Gravel war ends. There's no period of during which the mercenaries go rogue or anything. You're completely fabricating this to fit in line with your obsession with making sure every detail of the gameplay fits with the canon story. No it doesn't make sense that the admin would be particularly concerned about a briefcase, but that doesn't actually matter. The TF2 team keeps stuff like this vague delibrately so that they can make interesting stories. Your explanation of some kind of bizarre merc uprising comes from nowhere, is directly contrary to the actual canon and is much harder to believe than just accepting minor plotholes. [quote] 2. Medic didn't betray RED and go to BLU, he betrayed TF2 and went to TFC, so in this case the argument holds no water. Mentioning that they are going to join the other team is merely an insult and nothing more. Voicelines can be interpreted both sides, e.g., we can also point out that the classes amention killing the very same person multiple times. "18 perfect idiots" doesn't necessarily mean that there's no clones, it's just a number of people involved in Admins plans. [/quote] He betrayed the administrator to work against the administrator. Even though he's a clone, belonging to the administrator. Assuming she's somehow dumb enough to let that happen, why doesn't the administrator make more medic clones to help her team? [quote] 3. What goes next is a mish-mash of argumentation, but, as far as I could have figured, you've suggested that throught the 60s there were multiple teams with mercs flowing within them, it just happened so that we have only 9 of them established. First, that's quite an accomplishment on their side, both employers' and employees'. The first ones managed to continiously dig out the best of the best in the world, sometimes startling across yet another crazy scientist, gun obsessed russian hulk or some black scottish cyclops, while the latters have survived 6 years of constant firefights making it out without a scratch against an evenly constant stream of new proffesionals . Second, every single piece of TF2 media establishes the 9 mercs we know and love as the never changing roaster of late 60s. Nowhere it is implied otherwise, nowhere it is said that there's more mercs than meets the eye. Heck, the only evidence that could have suggested so is the "18 perfect idiots" randomly thrown phrase which can be interpreted either way. [/quote] Not really sure what nightlord was going on about on that point either. [quote] Yet again. Without respawn theory we [I]can't[/I] explain Gravel Wars and not make it incredibly stupid. Within the respawn theory we [I]can[/I] explain every other inconsistency and not make it incredibly stupid. Only slightly stupid. Sometimes.[/QUOTE] No, a small number of inconsistencies that are easy to accept go away only to be replaced with far more complicated and bizarre inconsistencies. Honestly how can you have a canon machine that brings people back to life without it ever being acknowledged at all, and consider that acceptable? And you still haven't addressed most of my points from before, particularly why the Admin doesn't use the device herself, or create armies of clones.

[QUOTE=eugensiman;48662810]While we can allow ourselves not explaining respawn technology fully (but I'm going to do it anyway sooner or later), we can't make it so Gravel Wars, the focal part of the setting, becomes completely ludicrous.[/QUOTE] suspension of disbelief phrase a willingness to suspend one's critical faculties and believe the unbelievable; sacrifice of realism and logic for the sake of enjoyment

[QUOTE=Anderan;48663390]suspension of disbelief phrase a willingness to suspend one's critical faculties and believe the unbelievable; sacrifice of realism and logic for the sake of enjoyment[/QUOTE] But it can be applied both damn ways! I'd much rather suspend my critical faculties on something containing a few plotholes which can be explained sooner or later (respawn mostly clashes with pre-GW & post-GW stories, and these plotholes can be severely toned down by taking as a given that a fired merc doesn't respawn/a VERSION of merc which is fired doesn't respawn), rather than on something that is a giant plothole in itself (absence of respawn gives us no clue, who were the people mercs have been happily killing for 4-6 years and makes most videos, WAR! and some other pieces pretty much obsolete). There's more to suspend with absence of respawn, rather than with its existence. I know, it's kind of easier to believe the whole picture than to omit various paricularities, but it's not how my "suspension criteria" work. Think quality, not quantity. *tight on time, can't answer stroodle and others right now regarding most of their criticism. going to do that later on*

I always just figured the mercs were shuffled around rock paper scissors style so neither side could possibly win.

I'm pretty sure they have to be on the same team consistently. The whole point of the War! update's plot was that the Administrator couldn't have RED Demo talking to BLU Soldier, or they'd figure out that both teams were being run by the Administrator.

[QUOTE=eugensiman;48665674]But it can be applied both damn ways! I'd much rather suspend my critical faculties on something containing a few plotholes which can be explained sooner or later (respawn mostly clashes with pre-GW & post-GW stories, and these plotholes can be severely toned down by taking as a given that a fired merc doesn't respawn/a VERSION of merc which is fired doesn't respawn), rather than on something that is a giant plothole in itself (absence of respawn gives us no clue, who were the people mercs have been happily killing for 4-6 years and makes most videos, WAR! and some other pieces pretty much obsolete). There's more to suspend with absence of respawn, rather than with its existence. I know, it's kind of easier to believe the whole picture than to omit various paricularities, but it's not how my "suspension criteria" work. Think quality, not quantity. *tight on time, can't answer stroodle and others right now regarding most of their criticism. going to do that later on*[/QUOTE] Adding more explanations for the sake of making it easier to understand utterly defeats the point of suspension of disbelief.