Team Fortress 2 Lore Discusssion: We make sense out of a hat-simulator - Games

[QUOTE=eugensiman;48661026]I've yet to write a wall of text in response to Mort Stroodle, since some of his arguments are actually quite reasonable, but, nevertheless, I'll bring up some minor points from there in this post: 1. The Mann bros were neither "switched" to respawn nor anybody needed them respawned. They were incredibly useless and, after Mann Co. winning the bid for organizing mercenary battles, had been existing solely for paper reasons (mercs must have legitimately different employers). I'm sure Gray killed them only to show Admin that he means business. In the latest comics Soldier and Sniper are fired and out of the enclosed battle zones, hence, it make total sense that they won't respawn at a time, and of course, knowing that now they are going to die for reals, they will fear it. This can be further solidified either by explaining how respawn may exactly work or suggesting that Admin could have sabotaged the technology once Gray has taken over Mann Co. On the topic of Medic "defying modern medicine", again, we don't know how respawn may exactly work. It probably is glorified cloning, not actually reviving freshly decaying bodies. And even then, Medic didn't invent respawns nor they are a part of what he could have called "modern medicine", so he has all the right to say so. btw, seeing as Expiration Date plot is thrown around as an evidence of no respawns out there, let me remind you how weird that short is with its setting. Miss Pauling supports only one team, outright helping them to kill the enemy mercs instead of working secretly for both sides, battles don't happen within enclosed disguised facilities, mercs have a risk of getting into jail because of killing their counterparts and briefcase suddenly becomes an object Administrator personally doesn't want stolen, instead of a pointless objective like it used to, as if the whole Gravel War has gone out of Admins control, with mercs fighting outside of maps and, of course, not being respawned. Keep in mind that the short takes place in 1970-1971, practically during the same year the Gray suddenly shows up on the scene, and it starts making a lot of sense. As if Helen decided to drop managing the mercs and quickly come up with some renewed schemes against a steadily growing shadow of her old nemesis. 2. Medic didn't betray RED and go to BLU, he betrayed TF2 and went to TFC, so in this case the argument holds no water. Mentioning that they are going to join the other team is merely an insult and nothing more. Voicelines can be interpreted both sides, e.g., we can also point out that the classes amention killing the very same person multiple times. "18 perfect idiots" doesn't necessarily mean that there's no clones, it's just a number of people involved in Admins plans. 3. What goes next is a mish-mash of argumentation, but, as far as I could have figured, you've suggested that throught the 60s there were multiple teams with mercs flowing within them, it just happened so that we have only 9 of them established. First, that's quite an accomplishment on their side, both employers' and employees'. The first ones managed to continiously dig out the best of the best in the world, sometimes startling across yet another crazy scientist, gun obsessed russian hulk or some black scottish cyclops, while the latters have survived 6 years of constant firefights making it out without a scratch against an evenly constant stream of new proffesionals . Second, every single piece of TF2 media establishes the 9 mercs we know and love as the never changing roaster of late 60s. Nowhere it is implied otherwise, nowhere it is said that there's more mercs than meets the eye. Heck, the only evidence that could have suggested so is the "18 perfect idiots" randomly thrown phrase which can be interpreted either way. Yet again. Without respawn theory we [I]can't[/I] explain Gravel Wars and not make it incredibly stupid. Within the respawn theory we [I]can[/I] explain every other inconsistency and not make it incredibly stupid. Only slightly stupid. Sometimes.[/QUOTE] The first part about the Mann brothers makes no sense. If respawning was possible, they would not have needed the Life Extension machines. Remember that TFC is canon, and there were only 9 characters there as well (although not quite as well established as the ones in TF2) so if the respawn theory is true, they would have had it there as well and it would have been possible for the Mann brothers to use it at that time, thus not requiring the life extension machines. Gray killed them because they were useless and were in the way; for almost 100 years they'd been fighting each other for the sole reason of not wanting to back down to the other. They each wanted to beat the other, that's why they were fighting for so long. They were the ones who organized the whole thing and were the ones responsible for the gravel wars, it does not make sense for the common mercs to be respawned all the time but the 'important' people in charge are not. There aren't really any "enclosed battle zones". They fought pretty much everywhere - it wasn't just in Mann Co bases. In the latest comic they're inside a Mann Co facility anyway, a location that would have the respawn machines if they existed. The sniper dies in the comic and his reaction suggests he has not done that before, if the respawn idea was true what he says does not make sense - he'd more likely think other snipers would have died and gone to heaven already, thus his 'parents' saying that to him wouldn't make much sense either. Nothing suggests they can respawn outside of the gameplay mechanic itself. The medic "deying modern medicine" means he did something that modern medicine could not have done. He bought the sniper back to life, and calls it his "crowning medical achievement". Saying that would no sense if bringing people back from the dead in some way was possible, or just cloning them was instead. Even if the respawn technology wasn't commonplace outside of the Gravel Wars, the Medic would know of its existance and it would still count as modern medical technology. He wouldn't be so surprised that he'd managed to do it. None of those things in Expiration date support the respawn idea and actually support the opposite. Pauling supports both teams, obviously she can't support both at the exact same time otherwise they'd figure it out. The battles aren't always are disguised facilities but it's clearly some sort of BLU base the battle part was in, and the rest is in a RED base. The mercs can get in trouble for out their counterparts because they're actual people and not clones. The briefcase has always been important but we have no idea what's actually in it, obviously the administrator doesn't want it taken even if she's controlling both sides as that would complicate things. Nothing suggests they're "fighting outside the maps". The medic betrayed the RED team. He even says "out team disbanded" meaning he was on a specific team at one point and is now working against them. The classes can't decide to join the other team if they're just clones, It wouldn't be up to them which team they'd be on and it wouldn't matter anyway because they would be on the other team as well. "18 perfect idiots" means there are only 18 of them. 9 on each side, she's using the mercs to fight each other while also using that as a distraction to gather Australium - that was her plan all along, the gravel wars was never really important because of the fights over land and whatever else they fought over (gravel). My point about there only being 9 characters we've seen is that we've only seen those because those are the established characters representing TF2, no one would care about generic BLU engineer number 214 or whatever and they are not going to make 9 other characters for the other team. Of course every piece of TF2 media has those 9 characters, because those are the main characters of the series. It's the 9 classes with backstorys that are important, but that doesn't mean they're the only ones that have ever been hired by both teams – they've just survived for quite a while, it seems. Creating a new person for each time a classes is shown in a video or comic only to have them straight away die would not work. The comics even say one brother hired a team of 9, so the other brother did as well. Remember that these aren't small organisations. They're hidden, but they're still powerful, wealthy companies with enough power to build large, high-tech, secret bases all over the world, and then hire people to fight over it. Finding replacements would not be difficult. RED and BLU “secretly controls half of the world's governments“ supposedly, so they'd be able to get their hands on pretty much anything really. We know the classes aren't on both teams at the same time because they reference the other team and act like they're completely separate. There can't be “18 perfect idiots” if it's actually the same 9 people just being used by both teams. We also know the ones in the comics are actually hired, and it would not make sense to pay each individual clone/version of them. The idea that the 9 of them have been paid to do nothing but sit in a room somewhere so they can be cloned, not doing any actual fighting themselves, does not fit in with their characters or how they act in the comics. Besides, we actually know in the comic that they fight in the battles themselves based on the There's also the fact that, As far as i'm aware there are no 'organized' battles so having them turned out in certain places or at certain times would make no sense. The battles just happen randomly at random locations, although they usually revolve around the teams bases because the Mann brothers were fighting each other. The respawn theory would only work if the battles are actually something organized and decided on by both sides, nothing suggests that's the case at all. There is nothing at all to suggest they can actually respawn. Nothing In the comics or backstory supports it. The only reason to think it could be true is because of the gameplay, which as i've said, is just a gameplay mechanic that does not have any relevance to the actual canon of the series. Lots of things contradict the idea and there is nothing substantial to support it.

[QUOTE=Popularvote;48666720]I always just figured the mercs were shuffled around rock paper scissors style so neither side could possibly win.[/QUOTE] Sure but that does not solve the problem of the great big war being nothing more than people potshotting at each other and not dying.

[QUOTE=DrVincentWolf;48668320]Sure but that does not solve the problem of the great big war being nothing more than people potshotting at each other and not dying.[/QUOTE] They could have just been wounded multiple times. Considering that the medic can regen body parts with his medigun it's not hard to believe that they just never were wounded enough to actually die.

I'm curious if the comics take place after the game, or are not related to the game at all. Because if they take place after the game, does that make certain things canon? (Hats, Weapons, Events e.g WAR!!!, Spy vs. Sniper)

[QUOTE=Cyanidious;48673656]I'm curious if the comics take place after the game, or are not related to the game at all. Because if they take place after the game, does that make certain things canon? (Hats, Weapons, Events e.g WAR!!!, Spy vs. Sniper)[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure at least the events, even the halloween events, are canon.

I can't believe we've been on these issues for over 2 years and yet some people still don't know whenever they take place before, during or after the game.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48662923]No, we've clearly seen that she wants them alive and working against each other. Remember how the Admin's predecessor paid off the engi to make sure that neither of them died? Why even bother putting the brothers into a stalemate if she only need the mercs? She has money, she can pay them off. That doesn't make any sense. If they're being cloned like you say, they could be cloned regardless of whether or not they die at a specific spot. Why on earth would she sabotage a technology that is actively useful to her in every way, without recreating it for her own uses? It's not like she doesn't have resources. The medic thing certainly isn't a dealbreaker, but the medic does seem weirdly fixated on bringing someone back from the dead, given that you're suggesting he sees it happen dozens of times every single day. Don't know where you're getting the idea that expiration date takes place after Redmond and Blutarch die. They immediately put the mercs to work fighting the robots when the Gravel war ends. There's no period of during which the mercenaries go rogue or anything. You're completely fabricating this to fit in line with your obsession with making sure every detail of the gameplay fits with the canon story. No it doesn't make sense that the admin would be particularly concerned about a briefcase, but that doesn't actually matter. The TF2 team keeps stuff like this vague delibrately so that they can make interesting stories. Your explanation of some kind of bizarre merc uprising comes from nowhere, is directly contrary to the actual canon and is much harder to believe than just accepting minor plotholes. He betrayed the administrator to work against the administrator. Even though he's a clone, belonging to the administrator. Assuming she's somehow dumb enough to let that happen, why doesn't the administrator make more medic clones to help her team? Not really sure what nightlord was going on about on that point either. No, a small number of inconsistencies that are easy to accept go away only to be replaced with far more complicated and bizarre inconsistencies. Honestly how can you have a canon machine that brings people back to life without it ever being acknowledged at all, and consider that acceptable? And you still haven't addressed most of my points from before, particularly why the Admin doesn't use the device herself, or create armies of clones.[/QUOTE] Considering the reveal in [URL="http://www.teamfortress.com/tf03_cold_day_in_hell/#f=11"]A Cold Day In Hell[/URL] that Admin is hundreds of years old, Elizabeth likely [I]is[/I] Helen. How does the Meet The videos fit into this? [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lSzUMBJnc"]Meet the Medic[/URL] has a bunch of identical BLU Soldiers, and[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=han3AfjH210"] Meet The Demoman [/URL]has a RED Scout dying. (Plus the deaths in[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR4N5OhcY9s"] Meet the Spy[/URL] and so on) I've always noted that Meet the's are propaganda, so a lot of the aspects don't apply to canon and are simply for dramatic effect (such as Spy pushing the sapper towards the sentry, etc) but characters die in there in ways which probably aren't just special effects. Yes, meet the Director outright notes how staged they are, but a sure lot of characters blew up. So, this just a theory, but hear me out here. Respawn is canon, but it has such nasty effects that no one but the mercenaries are reckless enough to be willing to do it, or it's very new and experimental. Given that it wasn't developed until fairly recently, this is why the older people have the life-extender machines, as these were what predated the Respawn machine. By the time Respawn was developed, they were already ancient, and Respawn wouldn't do much for them.

[QUOTE=LurkMoar;48677263]Considering the reveal in [URL="http://www.teamfortress.com/tf03_cold_day_in_hell/#f=11"]A Cold Day In Hell[/URL] that Admin is hundreds of years old, Elizabeth likely [I]is[/I] Helen. How does the Meet The videos fit into this? [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lSzUMBJnc"]Meet the Medic[/URL] has a bunch of identical BLU Soldiers, and[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=han3AfjH210"] Meet The Demoman [/URL]has a RED Scout dying. (Plus the deaths in[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR4N5OhcY9s"] Meet the Spy[/URL] and so on) I've always noted that Meet the's are propaganda, so a lot of the aspects don't apply to canon and are simply for dramatic effect (such as Spy pushing the sapper towards the sentry, etc) but characters die in there in ways which probably aren't just special effects. Yes, meet the Director outright notes how staged they are, but a sure lot of characters blew up. So, this just a theory, but hear me out here. Respawn is canon, but it has such nasty effects that no one but the mercenaries are reckless enough to be willing to do it, or it's very new and experimental. Given that it wasn't developed until fairly recently, this is why the older people have the life-extender machines, as these were what predated the Respawn machine. By the time Respawn was developed, they were already ancient, and Respawn wouldn't do much for them.[/QUOTE] As i've said previously, in the videos the characters die but are fine elsewhere because they are not going to make new characters specifically just so they can kill them off a few seconds later. The 9 classes are used because they are already established characters, it is not meant to have any relevance to the canon when they die there. In meet the spy it even shows that the RED and BLU spy aren't the same person outside of the Battlefield. Meet the director also suggests the RED and BLU team characters are seperate people, and says nothing about them being staged videos.

The respawn theory could have been plausible back in 2007 TF2, but since the lore has went in such a different direction and style since then it's really not worth bringing into consideration anymore.

Wait, what about the magic pills Soldier stole from Merasmus? Weren't they supposed to bring you back from the dead?

[QUOTE=PimpinDemopan;48686418]Wait, what about the magic pills Soldier stole from Merasmus? Weren't they supposed to bring you back from the dead?[/QUOTE] A one off joke that only applies to Soldier. Also, they were "kill me come back stronger" pills, but Soldier hasn't gotten any stronger.

[QUOTE=_charon;48686574]A one off joke that only applies to Soldier. Also, they were "kill me come back stronger" pills, but Soldier hasn't gotten any stronger.[/QUOTE] You're telling me I don't get a Zenkai Boost when I die as Soldier?

[QUOTE=TectoImprov;48686705]You're telling me I don't get a Zenkai Boost when I die as Soldier?[/QUOTE] no, you get a Sodium Chloride boost edit: this was more funny when I thought of it

Respawn/clones not being canon finally confirmed. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/VP41GJk.png[/IMG] Hopefully not late with this one. Some info regarding issue 6. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/GVGTshC.png[/IMG] And about the clones thing, does it mean that the shorts aren't canon either? Because in a lot of them classes appear multiple times (the 2 soldiers from expiration date, both spies in meet the spy, the shitload of soldiers from meet the medic, etc), or the same rule as Blutarch's and Redmond's engineers apply there as well, with the storyline classes being the best at their profession and shit? [t]http://media.steampowered.com/apps/tf2/bloodbrothers/images/comic/1024x768/007.jpg[/t]

There's two Soldiers in Expiration Date? It's also entirely possible that because both Soldiers and Spies wear face-concealing headgear, you can't tell they're different people when there's multiple of them.

[QUOTE=Supreveio;48842310]There's two Soldiers in Expiration Date? It's also entirely possible that because both Soldiers and Spies wear face-concealing headgear, you can't tell they're different people when there's multiple of them.[/QUOTE] Yeah, a dead BLU Soldier body falls off the van when they pull into the base

Well, that doesn't make much sense. So I guess the whole WAR! Update comic is non-canon then? RED Demonman was friends with BLU Soldier, and neither team is aware the Admin controls them both. And why was Engi only depicted as BLU in the Loose Canon comic and TF Comics if the non-game fiction actually doesn't have two teams? And didn't we see a mix of teams in the MVM shorts and the first MVM comic? And a third thing- if there aren't two teams at all, then why did they say both RED and BLU control half of the worlds governments each with their intel? And to top it all off, all the TFC characters seen in the TF comics are BLU. And if I recall the catchup comic also had a mix of RED and BLU. So many instances of multiple teams in the comic that they're suddenly claiming don't exist.

I always thought the idea was that the mercs work for both teams. And restricting the TF2 mercs to RED and TFC mercs to BLU was there [del]because it was too confusing for new players.[/del] to simplify everything.

How do the Meet The videos fit into this? I mean, Meet The Director directly references them, and even gives them backstory. It's hard to just declare them non-canon.

Why did they make Pauling a lesbian

[QUOTE=Agoat;48880936]Why did they make Pauling a lesbian[/QUOTE] Given [URL="http://41.media.tumblr.com/bbcb31f7cd82a4c520eeca7346abcc4d/tumblr_nqaquzC69e1rba4gjo1_500.png"]the context of the text was him responding to a furry waifuing guy who was harassing him[/URL], (not pictured in those tweets: the guy sending him threats) that Pinkerton has [URL="https://mobile.twitter.com/jaypinkerton/status/612315522181414913"]backtracked[/URL] [URL="https://mobile.twitter.com/jaypinkerton/status/618280112681672704"]repeatedly,[/URL] ([URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/3gmb8k/ms_pauling_makes_scout_cry/cu0bx6d"]And possibly even more[/URL]) [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/b/b3/Plng_give_contract_rare_scout_05.mp3?t=20150703014543"]Gun Mettle[/URL], more [URL="http://scoutpauling.tumblr.com/post/124593611694/i-was-so-bummed-when-i-forgot-to-cap-and-check-my"]Gun Mettle[/URL], even more Gun Mettle, Expiration Date, The Spoils Of Love And War, [URL="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A77yP7scpxpg2Yurdu0jdSgON5Y4CITAwiVeCQMWs0Q/edit"]the stuff that[/URL] [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1398764&p=45138443&viewfull=1#post45138443"]was cut from Expiration Date[/URL], [URL="http://anoia.tumblr.com/post/91824374598/i-should-ask-whats-your-opinion-on-an"]the fact that Makani genuinely didn't think she was lesbian, and preferred her as bisexual and cited past plots with her and men[/URL] I'd say he was just joking.

If they made her bi they could've made a joke about her "playing for both teams" :v:

The reason mercs are afraid of death even though they will respawn is beacuse they will loose their killstreak.

Maybe the BLU team are just generic mercs with RED being the Scout, Pyro, Medic, etc. This explains how there is no clones/counterparts and how no one on RED has died. When people on BLU die they just had hire new mercs. In the new lore you don't get to "met" any of the BLU mercs, just the RED's.

[QUOTE=AtomTrap;48893772]Maybe the BLU team are just generic mercs with RED being the Scout, Pyro, Medic, etc. This explains how there is no clones/counterparts and how no one on RED has died. When people on BLU die they just had hire new mercs. In the new lore you don't get to "met" any of the BLU mercs, just the RED's.[/QUOTE] That would work better if there wasn't lore based on specific characters being RED or BLU (Spy dating BLU Scout's mother and it being an issue, WAR, the Sniper vs Spy war being specifically RED Sniper vs BLU Spy and so on) Plus Engineer is BLU in Blood In the Water, and Unhappy Returns says that the RED team had the exact same memories as something that the BLU team did.

I will explain my theory even if it will conflict with every other theories. -TF2 is based on real time -Thousands of people are registering to become a merc at this moment. -Mann co. is constantly producing old-fashioned cosmetics (most of them are made by one of the mercs around the world) to gain money. -All events on comics (except update comics) happened around 19th-20th centuries. -Mann co. is owned by Valve. -Everyone worship Gaben as a god. Realistic.

terrible.

[QUOTE=Metaru;48926069]terrible.[/QUOTE] Of course, it is terrible unless you want the gameplay itself to be logical.

its terrible because you resort to use memes to be funny, and people around here doesnt give two shits about them. if you want a detailed explanation of why though: [QUOTE]-TF2 is based on real time[/QUOTE] Tf2 already exists on a somewhat paralel universe to ours, sharing some events but putting its own twist to them(Soldier going to WW2, Abe Lincon, etc). [QUOTE]-Thousands of people are registering to become a merc at this moment.[/QUOTE] lore-wise, our mercs are the 9 mercs we see ingame. there are others working for mannco and also working using mannco's hardware. though, ingame elements doesnt translate directly/necesarily into the game's lore. (TFC mercs, gun mettle's elite mercs, etc.) [QUOTE]-Mann co. is constantly producing old-fashioned cosmetics (most of them are made by one of the mercs around the world) to gain money.[/QUOTE] mannco makes hats among a lot of other stuff. we know there is a "fashion" division of mannco known as Mankho that most likely handles clothing and other related stuff. again, ingame elements doesnt translate directly/necesarily into the game's lore. [QUOTE]-All events on comics (except update comics) happened around 19th-20th centuries.[/QUOTE] the only non-canon comics are bogaloo and mac update. then again, tf2 lore-wise isnt the same as ingame-wise. [QUOTE]-Mann co. is owned by Valve.[/QUOTE] ... [QUOTE]-Everyone worship Gaben as a god.[/QUOTE] :why:

What if in the comics they pay attention to those specific mercs, and we play as all the other goons RED and BLU hired?