Does anyone else think that unique class roles are being slowly diminished? - Games

At the end of all the updates there should be a new gamemode implemented into the game: one where all the unlocks aren't allowed, and all characters have to use the default weapons etcetera. The gamemode could be called something like Classic TF2 or Retro TF2, and be used on any map in conjuncture with the gamemode already in use on that map, i.e. CTF on 2fort.

I agree loved the Medic, Pyro and Spy updates. The Scout update (even though it's my favirote class) crossed a line with medic weapons, I know that as playing a scout you're kind a lone wolf on the field and you're never going to get Ubercharged or Kritzkreiged for obvious reasons. But these weapons are dull and boring, maybe only the Crit-A-Cola is quite fun to use, but the Bonk! is not fun to use and is not as useful as using a pistol anyway. That aside it's uneeded once again, the Bonk! was intended to cover the vulnerability of the Scout's weakness to things like the sentry gun, and get behind targets but why couldn't this have been done another way? With different stats without the need of invulnerability that would cross over with traits of the Medic. For instance it could cause a giant speed boost that would prevent sentries from targeting the scout during this period, classes on last capture points could still easily stop Scout Captures i.e Natascha Heavies or Demomen stickies on points would be a great counter. The Crit-A-Cola is probably acceptable I don't really link it that closely with the Kritzkreig or Medic's traits but its not as fun as a much more unique or original as the weapon could have been, its far to situational and the loss of the pistol is to much of a disadvantage. The Force-Of-Nature is an example of a brilliant weapon (hate aside) while I don't use it, it in no way conflicts with other classes but actually dilutes the Scouts Traits (Extra Jump) which makes it exciting to use, unique (due to the ability to form strategies around the extra jump ability). We can see because it actually furthers the Scout's purpose and introduces unique stats it's not only more helpful but more fun to use, everyone wins.

Email this to Gabe or someone on the TF2 Dev, really. It'd be nice to see what they think.

[QUOTE=lolracoon;23563630]Now, would you say that the scout's speed would help him in a 32 player or even 24 player, say Dustbowl or gravel pit server with sentry guns and shit? I don't think so. I believe the pain train was included so that it would give the greater capturing speed to more robust classes like the soldier and demo who are more capable of dealing with sentries and a more populated server, where the scout's weaknesses would make him very difficult to play.[/QUOTE] Still the Soldier and Demoman don't need more capture help, in a sense you're destorying the importance of the Scout by saying only the Demoman and Soldier should cap in these instances due to there health and robust nature, which only further shows how these weapons have caused such a confliction, the Scouts trait of being able to cap at twice the speed was what gave him great importance when rushing final capture points or any point for that matter he's an offensive class aswell, what you're saying clearly emphasizes the current problem. The Pain Train is both unfun and uneeded they could have implemented weapons that would have suited the Demoman/Soldier's purpose more. This also shows the issue of the Scouts unlockables that should have helped with this problem but they didn't. Effectively the Bonk! Atomic Punch was supposed to be used in the case of where there were too many sentries or too much defense, enabling the Scout to get through but like I said it's not usefull, unfun and mixes with Medic traits (when it doesn't have too). Like I said if there was a different set up for how Bonk! would work or other weapons that would help the Scout in these situations then it would be fine.

[QUOTE=Drax-Quin;23563748]-a good response-[/QUOTE] I agree with what you're saying here. Bonk really was a bit situational, really its only use was to bypass unattended sentry guns guarding a point. Other than that and it really couldn't be used for anything else except escaping and aiding in living through taunt killing someone.

This is what I mean I envisioned Bonk! to be used in situations you described but at the moment it's quite useless, and due to it being so it's also not fun to use, Like I said it also steps on another class's traits like The Pain Train does which also means it's less fun because these traits aren't unique if they're already being used in the game.

2x Capture speed doesn't help when you're capping Intel :P

Only further proving just how useless it is, it was a weapon they decided to throw in with some stats that was a major aspect of a certain class, we simply could have done without it. There's just no need to create a weapon that conflicts like that, limiting the purpose and importance of the Scout at the same time because he doesn't have a unique trait now. It isn't fun to use as both Demoman/Soldier because it doesn't really do anything unique it only benefits the team and not in an exciting way either like the Jarate does with mini-crits and extinguishing fire. Uneeded + Unfun basically.

Okay, all of your observations are correct. But I feel that all of those changes are in a positive direction. Using the "stretched purposes" of the classes take more skill to use. And I wouldn't say that the engineers and pyros can "rocket jump" since they can't do it on their own. You could say any class can do an explosives jump as well, because they can walk under a demoman's sticky and be launched into the air just as fine as the original demo. [editline]10:33AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Someoneuduno;23562704]and molest anything at medium range with arrows.[/QUOTE] :ohdear:

These changes are in the positive direction based on the fact they give the classes more strategies and make them more fun to play, increasing the longetivity of the game, but there's no saying these weapons could have been made without merging certain other class traits i.e the intention of Bonk! could have been made without the need of invulnerability. As Bonk! was intended to overgome extreme defenses and sentries gun allowing you to either capture points or get behind targets at otherwise impossible times. Then like I said there are weapons like the Pain Train which are just totally uneeded, they didn't fit that class at all and have taken an important aspect of another class, this causes this class to be less usefull. Like I said there's just no need to merge traits with stats, not to mention it also makes things less fun when you merge traits because when the traits are already known or are already used by another class it makes them less exciting to use. I'll refer back to the spy again (who has the best set of unlocks) look at the Dead Ringer it doesn't merge with other class traits and is more fun to use as a result, it's still a different weapon and still makes use of different playstyles and strategies and meets the purpose of the class.

Yet people go insane with rage when we suggest the idea of turning off weapons and hats as a serverside option so we could play original TF2. Then we get unoriginal and ignorant responses such as [QUOTE=Braaaaains;23562169]Don't like it? Go play the XBox version. :colbert: Valve wouldn't put these in if they unbalanced the game, and without them the game would have a much shorter lifespan as their characteristics will quickly get boring/ annoying. Be thankful that the TF2 people hasn't just made the game and left us to our own devices with no new and exciting updates like the majority of Valve games.[/QUOTE] and [QUOTE=Man in the Moon;23562910]Oh no, all these free updates change things, How horrible![/QUOTE] These people just don't get it. I don't hate the new updates, and I do think they kept the game fresh. However I would like to be able to go back and play a version of TF2 where the classes are unique, and unlike the Xbox/ps3 version isn't extremely limited in terms of bug fixes and map variety. [editline]04:43PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Kushie;23564065]And I wouldn't say that the engineers and pyros can "rocket jump" since they can't do it on their own.[/QUOTE] Engineer can.

[QUOTE=Kushie;23564065][B]And I wouldn't say that the engineers[/B] and pyros [B]can "rocket jump" since they can't do it on their own.[/B] You could say any class can do an explosives jump as well, because they can walk under a demoman's sticky and be launched into the air just as fine as the original demo.[/QUOTE] Wrangler jump. I'd say that's "doing it on his own". [editline]03:44PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Simski;23564227]I don't hate the new updates, and I do think they kept the game fresh.[/QUOTE] It's like putting too much salt on a piece of meat. Yes, it's fresh, but it doesn't taste nice.

People don't get that I don't hate the updates like I've said numerous times I love updates and without them I think the game wouldn't have lasted as long. Like you said Simski. The issue is alot of these weapons could have been made without merging other traits from other classes, and instead furthered the original purpose of there class, just like most of the current Spy weapons do. In this way the weapons would have been more fun as well, like I've said a million times something that borrows common traits just isn't as fun to use as something unique. [QUOTE=Braaaaains]Valve wouldn't put these in if they unbalanced the game[/QUOTE] No one mentioned they were unbalanced, we mentioned they merged class traits two totally different things. [QUOTE=Braaaaains]the game would have a much shorter lifespan as their characteristics will quickly get boring/ annoying. Be thankful that the TF2 people hasn't just made the game and left us to our own devices with no new and exciting updates like the majority of Valve games.[/QUOTE] I agree it would've had a shorter lifespan, but there's no saying you can't have new weapons without causing class conflictions. I'm very thankful the TF2 team introduced these for free when many other companies would have charged, its very generous of them, the fact is I don't mind free updates but when these updates start to destroy parts of the orginal game (by merging classes) do I really want them? No, I would rather do without them if they're going to do that, i.e updates like the Pain Train. [QUOTE=Kushie]And I wouldn't say that the engineers and pyros can "rocket jump" since they can't do it on their own. You could say any class can do an explosives jump as well, because they can walk under a demoman's sticky and be launched into the air just as fine as the original demo.[/QUOTE] Are you aware that they can do it on there own, are you aware that Engineer's can use the Wrangler to Rocket Jump themselves on there [B]own[/B]? No you can't say any class can do an explosive jump, we're talking about by themselves, your entire post makes it sound like you aren't aware that Engineer's can Wrangler jump.

[QUOTE=Simski;23564227]Engineer can.[/QUOTE] Oops I was thinking pyro. Well he can but I meant that it's not practical.

^^ That I agree with.

My main gripe with the current TF2 is the horrible quantity of content. More maps/gamemodes are always cool. Hats can or cannot be cool ( see: event hats like gibus or parasite ) and unlocks just tend to change the game from what we all love. I'd be quite honest to say that TF2 is better without the unlocks. I don't mind the class-specific hats, but all-class hats except the towers of hats need to go. I'd rather see a Soldier with his helmet than a Soldier with a ragged tophat, though I see less and less gibuses/laments/berets/rabbits now.

Free Content =/= Good Content. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's better without unlocks, like I said they do change it up and increase it's life span, and I don't have any gripes with hats, they're purely decrotive and cosmetic items, so there's no need to care about them. Plus some of the items are really fun to use, I would love to play the game without them for Nostalgia's sake but it wouldn't be quite as fun. I'm concerned about the weapons which destroy what made the orginal classes unique, you can still have new unlockables without doing this.

Yeah, I think we need new class definitions. I mean, Demoman, Heavy and Engineer are still in the "Defense" category. While Demoman and Engie are the most important players of area denial, they have become very aggressive classes (Engie's update wanted exactly that effect, too) and Heavy is still a great steamroll in combination with a Medic.

The Scout is still a hit-and-run class. Use your increased speed to aid in making yourself a difficult target to hit, while picking off specific one-on-one targets such as medics from behind then GET OUT OF THERE. Comparing him to the Demo is a bit weird, since you can avoid the straight line of the charge by just sidestepping.

I know how to play the Scout (I have no idea why you're telling me how to play the class), and I didn't deny it was a hit and run class, I'm refering to weapons that are reducing its importance by merging certain traits from the Scout. Plus weapons the Scout has that merge with other class traits, yet at the same time don't fulfull purposes they should have done, and could have done with different stats. I didn't compare him to the Demo I was refering to how the Pain Train enabled the Demoman/Soldier to capture at twice the speed a trait that was solely the Scout's, the Demoman/Soldier doesn't need it and it's not a fun weapon to use as Demoman or Soldier, it's an uneeded merging and reduces the importance of the Scout. I don't think you've read what I've been saying I wasn't talking about how the Charging Targe effects me, It's very easy to avoid as a Scout I agree, we're talking about how it merges traits from the Scout by applying speed buffs (like the Equalizer does with the Soldier), that combined with the Targe can allow a Demoman to speed rush a capture point on a level similair to what the Scout could originally do, reducing his purpose to the point where previously in that situation it would call for a Scout. These speed buffs don't even fit with the classes initial purpose.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;23562059] and by the end of Team Fortress 2's life, there will be no real defining characteristics of the classes, because they will all be Jack-of-all-trades'. [/QUOTE] That actually sounds fun IMO

It won't be Team Fortress anymore without defined classes.

If a Soldier is using the Pain Train, he loses his ability to run fast with the Equalizer If a Demoman is using the Pain Train, he loses his ability to kill people faster with the Skullcutter and his speedbuff with the Eyelander. Seeing Soldier/Demo with Pain Train is really rare, though. Demomen also loses their ability to sticky jump if they use their Targe. Every weapon is situational, you can't really say they have changed their jobs.

They're doing it to keep it fresh. They won't lose their unique abilities too much that it breaks the game.

I came into this thread thinking it was gonna be some stupid ranting, but these are valid arguments. I am a fan of the updates, but I agree with a lot of what's being said. I even realized that back before the many updates, it took a lot of thought to pick the class to fill in the voids of the existing team. But nowadays, when I pick a class, it's less of a thought process and more of a choice of what I feel like playing. And of course the Bonk is useless because you're supposed to use it to get behind sentries, but generally having a sentry up means a team has taken over the area behind it. So now you're a weak little scout surrounded by the entire other team, all of which know about where you are since the engie [I]should[/I] call you out to his team (he clearly sees you dodge his sentry).

I use Bonk pretty often and sometimes people do make a run for me when I'm rushing behind their sentries and everything. Just keep in mind that every weapon in the game is [i]extremely[/i] situational, it takes away something but in the same time it gives you a little benefitial treat.

Chargin Targe does not take away the scout's role. It is a straight charge forward for a short amount of time. The scout can run around all the time in any direction he chooses.

[QUOTE=Baboo00;23567248]Chargin Targe does not take away the scout's role. It is a straight charge forward for a short amount of time. The scout can run around all the time in any direction he chooses.[/QUOTE] It detracts from the Pyro's role though, especially when paired with the Skullcutter.

[QUOTE=Kentz;23563378]Unlocks shouldn't have been taken into the game in the first place. Well medics were fine, but that was the first update. Then they became shittier with every update.[/QUOTE] Because TF2 would still be nearly as successful as it is today without all the updates. No, shut up. I wouldn't have played TF2 for months if not years if it weren't for these updates. The game DID get boring back when it had no unique weapons.

[QUOTE=Keychain;23567914]Because TF2 would still be nearly as successful as it is today without all the updates. No, shut up. I wouldn't have played TF2 for months if not years if it weren't for these updates. The game DID get boring back when it had no [B]unique[/B] weapons.[/QUOTE] I think you mean unlockable weapons good sir, as the purpose of this thread is discussion over whether the unlocks are unique at all.