Does anyone else think that unique class roles are being slowly diminished? - Games

[QUOTE=Skrill;23565613]They're doing it to keep it fresh. They won't lose their unique abilities too much that it breaks the game.[/QUOTE] Never disagreed with that, they keep it fresh sure, though read what I'm saying there's no need to cause these crossover's in weaponary, there's no need for instance to intentionally give the Soldier/Demoman a trait that should be the Scout's only (by that I mean the ability to capture at 2x the speed). Every page the same argurment is said, it keeps it fresh it keeps it unique. I realise that Keychain is saying that in reference to Kentz post (which I don't agree with) my argurment like I've said previously is that I want new weapons they do keep it fresh, but there can still be weapons that fulfill certain purposes without need to crossover into other classes territory. Then there are weapons that are uneeded or should have a different purpose entirely (like the Pain Train, it should be made to fit the Soldier/Demoman more appriproately.) [QUOTE=Recurrancy] I use Bonk pretty often and sometimes people do make a run for me when I'm rushing behind their sentries and everything. Just keep in mind that every weapon in the game is [I]extremely[/I] situational, it takes away something but in the same time it gives you a little benefitial treat. [/QUOTE] My argurment isn't really against the usefullness of the weapon, it was part of Dain's original argurment that the stats of the Bonk! intermingle with the traits of the medic, every unlockable is situational, theres a purpose behind using them, the Bonk! Like I stated could still fit the purpose of the Bonk! (That is to get behind a heavy defense weither they be due to people or due to sentries) without the need for it to cross into the Medic's territory. If it was made diffrently it would not only fit the Scout more, but because it fits with his role and purpose it'll likely be more fun and unique to use. It'll also be more useful as a result. [QUOTE=Baboo00]Chargin Targe does not take away the scout's role. It is a straight charge forward for a short amount of time. The scout can run around all the time in any direction he chooses.[/QUOTE] The Chargin Targe doesn't take away the Scout's role, you're right, but that's not my argurment, my argurment is that speed buffs intermingle with the Scouts terrirory, a Chargin Targe allows the Demoman to move at a speed that rivals that of the Scout, even if it's brief even if it's in one direction its still a speed buff, is it not possible to make an unlock that suits the Demoman (look at the Scottish Resistance, the targe could be changed to suit the purpose of Area Denial) but is unique in its own way, the same way the Dead Ringer does for the Spy. The Chargin Targe changes things up but theres no need to go into another class's territory. The way I view it like I said, if something has a unique stat that doesn't just use something from another class, it'll be in turn more fun to use and more useful, like the Dead Ringer. Bare in mind combining the Chargin Targe with the Pain Train can allow for some scenarios that take use of this speed boost, i.e charging in and capping a last point with double capture speed something that would require a Scout, this as you can see take's away from something the Scout should have done.

They just need to make an option for servers to run with the default weapons only. It already happens whenever a server loses connection to Steam, it must be the simplest thing ever to implement. I personally love all the new stuff, but I can see why some people don't like all the new weapons and wish they had the option to disable them.

Changes need to made to some of the current weapons thats all I'm saying, some need to fit there classes better others I think need changing completely i.e the Pain Train, it's just unnecessary to take such a trait from another class, that totally doesn't fit with the Soldier or Demoman anyway, it's also a dull and pretty much useless weapon to use, espicially when the Eyelander or Scotsman's Skullcutter would be a better option. I'd play the default game for Nostalgia, but I like the new unlocks as they do change things up, but the [B]weapons don't have to intermingle with other classes[/B] one of the reasons I love the spy so much is because his unlockables are solely matched with his role yet they add a unique twist on his playstyle, no merging class traits for him so why does it have to be like that for the other classes. I know it sounds biased that I'm only refering to Demo items, but this problem extends to a lot of the weapons i.e the DOT effect on the pyro/engineer's melee weapons that merges with the Pyro's DOT effect (like the OP states the DOT effect is actually better due to covering the screen and less ways to stop it). The Engineers new weapons also put him into a greater offensive role, the heavy has often been stated as a moving sentry, now that the engineer can redeploy lvl 3 sentries in such a quick time it is much more effective when it is consistently and swiflty moved up field,the same problem exists with the mini-sentries. The Scout has problems with Bonk! merging with the Ubercharge and Crit-A-Cola merging with the KritzKreig, sure the Scout doesn't get the benefits of the medic but the Bonk and Crit-A-Cola could still fit there purpose without the need for this merge and would probably be better as a result. Then you have the Pain Train, Chargin Targe, Heavies Sandvich (healing merges with medics trait of healing) and then you have the Homewreck (Removing sappers) and Huntsman (Offensive Snipers that are at mid-range, effectively not sniping).

Completely agree.

Bonk! just needs to be modified so that the scout using it takes 50% of incoming damage but runs like 40% faster or something. That way it fulfills his unique trait of getting places faster and offers an incentive to use the thing to both escape and reach objectives. Also he should be able to drink while moving.

Perhaps it would be better if it gave a speed boost that as a result sentries could not target him (as sentry pushback would pretty much prevent your stats from doing anything), thereby it fits its purpose of getting past heavy defense and matches more coveniently with the Scout's initial role.This would allow him to get past sentries and would have more speed to avoid heavy defenses and cause more confusion allowing him to get behind targets etc, but it would mean he would still be heavily vulnerable to stickied points and Natascha Heavies. In my oponion such stats would make it more fun and more usefull at the some time, while matching with it's original concept. That would help more espicially with the Engineer Update (still think a lot of the merging in the update was a bad idea) then the current Bonk! does while meaning it doesn't conflict with other classes.

I had an Engineer PDA as a scout today on my server :wtc: Class limit bug.

Not neccesarily certain weapons aren't fun because they use this traits the are taken from other classes. The Pain Train is the perfect example it's such a lame and dull weapon, while it is usefull in helping your team, it takes a trait from another class. If it matched more with the Soldier/Demoman and didn't use merged traits it would be more fun. This would be the same with quite a few of the weapons. In terms of fun: Unique/Original stats matching that class > Traits taken from other classes.

[QUOTE=Drax-Quin;23569376]Perhaps it would be better if it gave a speed boost that as a result sentries could not target him[/QUOTE] Depends on how far away the scout is from the sentry. If the scout is nearby the sentry cannot target but if it's far away it can still lock on. (Think of how the Sentry cannot target you when you're circlestrafing it yet it has no problem when you're further away) Also this would be difficult with the Wrangler because it is independently controlled and has no turning speed restricions.

The Medic really needs something to bring it back to par with the other classes. Being the first class to get the unlocked weapons is not neccesarily the best. Quite frankly, we possibly would have had an entire different load out if he recieved his update much later. One of the Medics unlockables could have been a healgun that has no decay in overheal. Due to balancing reasons, the healgun was never used but right now, something like that would most definately come in handy is most senarios (ex, engie hell spam). Edit: About the Bonk issue. Valve does not comprehend the word "Miss". If they did, then the scout would be able to easily walk past sentries without being affected by knockback. This would make the Bonk drink a much more viable and better alternative.

TF2 is soon to become Borderlands.... [editline]08:51PM[/editline] by that i meen the classes have just slight differences.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;23569908]Depends on how far away the scout is from the sentry. If the scout is nearby the sentry cannot target but if it's far away it can still lock on. (Think of how the Sentry cannot target you when you're circlestrafing it yet it has no problem when you're further away) Also this would be difficult with the Wrangler because it is independently controlled and has no turning speed restricions.[/QUOTE] That sounds reasonable to me, I wasn't thinking that the scout could just shoot the sentry up close which would be OP,so that sounds good to me. Sadly though I know these changes likely won't happen so I guess I can only look forward to an option for Vanilla TF2 (Which I said I don't really want because the new weapons do make it more fresh to play again). This is why I am concerned with new updates because when new updates come out the stats on unlockables won't likely be totally changed , but will instead be slightly edited, this means that if the item at its basic concept merges with other class traits that issue won't ever change. This is why I wasn't happy with the Engineer Update, I would've much prefered a new sentry with new stats that were unique and would fit more with the Engineer's defensive area denial purpose, not only would that be better suited but it would be more fun IMO because a unique twist on a sentry gun would be more exciting due to it's unique nature.

[QUOTE=Drax-Quin;23570116]That sounds reasonable to me, I wasn't thinking that the scout could strafe around the sentry up close which would be OP, but that sounds good to me.[/QUOTE] nononono, you misinterpreted my post it would cause the scout to [b]only[/b] be able to not get hit by staying close to the sentry he would only get hit at long range

Oh right sorry. Still that sounds reasonable.

I sort of agree with the OP. Classes have become more flexible with their updates, but even though they have gained some traits of other classes the originals are still by far the best at their defined job. For example, pyros may be capable of long range now, but they are still shit at it. I can only recall about 3 times ever playing where I was finished off effectively by a flaregun.

These class merges ruin the fun of casual melee wars. Demomen have the damage output of a Heavy, minus the big target, slow speed, and limited range with their Skullcutters and Eyelanders. Soldiers can escape fairly easily, or instakill you with the Equalizer. Engineers and Snipers now have weapons that make you bleed out, effectively meaning that, if you get hit once, you pretty much lose the fight, with their SHs and TBs.

How often do you see an Ubercharged Scout? Enter Bonk! which allows Scout to make pushes and "scout" the enemy without the aid of a Medic. It fits the Scout perfectly and in no way enters the Medic's area. As for things such as the Buff Banner, Medics are rare and aren't played often. Things like the Buff Banner allow for pushes and strong defenses, without a Medic. In other words, the vast majority of unlocks are fine. The only real problem I see is this new bleeding effect which has just shat all over one of the main points of the Pyro.

[QUOTE=Sie-Sveinhund;23562838]Does anyone else find this incredibly ironic and unnerving?[/QUOTE] According to commentary mode, Gabe's favorite class is spy

[QUOTE=Clavus;23563077] the lines got a bit blurred [/QUOTE] NIN reference? I think they should've had Bonk! just make you go faster and have no knockback instead of "Uber In A Can". Maybe to fix both of those scout issues Bonk! should make you run much faster, and Crit-A-Cola should give you 4x cap rate when drank.

I get a warm feeling having followed this game since release. Just getting to see the game evolve every time a content update drops is simply rewarding. I don't necessarily miss vanilla gameplay but I do wonder what it would be like to go back to it often.

For the most part I like all the new options, it just adds more options to each class but the the core of the Pyro is getting more different all the time, he's really more of a utility class now than the pure close range guy he used to be. Also, the homewrecker is bullshit.

I entirely agree. But I don't think it's a bad thing. I wouldn't keep going back for more, if TF2 hadn't had class updates.

Yes, a demoman with chargin' targe and pain train plays just like a scout. Why the other day I just kept pestering this dude, shooting grenades into him and then fleeing off and circling with my amazing targe powers, then quickly ran into his base and bottled the teleporter to death while everyone was distracted. NO I WAS TURNED INTO A BLOCK OF SWISS CHEESE WITHIN FIVE SECONDS

One thing i certainly don't like is demoknights. It is a fukken 10th class. At first demo's supposed to make traps with stickies and develop defense. I mean "set up stickies on point, watch for hud to say that point is being captured and if it IS - KA-PEEWNG! The most thing i absolutely like is Dead ringer. Go to enemy base as enemy spy (and try not to get hit a lot) with activated DR, on hit find place to hide and quickly disguise as someone else. However the most balanced update is the Goldrush update. Waiting for medic update :)

Demoknight basically IS a 10th class. I don't see why that is something to complain about... you either choose to be DemoMAN or DemoKNIGHT, and can't be both. Its a choice. Just like its a choice to be Demoman or Soldier.

Those changes are actually very good because it removes the possibility of a weak link in the team — slightly more versatility for everyone means that it is possible to make up for two or three guys in your team seriously outbalancing it in the favor of the opponents. Basically: it's more fun and it makes the game less frustrating because you have to rely slightly less on your teammates

Scout is still the most powerful class in the game, regardless of capping speed being shared with other classes

[QUOTE=Jzzb;23575765]Scout is still the most powerful class in the game, regardless of capping speed being shared with other classes[/QUOTE] Eh...no? Running in a Pyro--> Fucked Running in a Sentry-->Fucked Being seen to early-->Fucked You can only break through (to the other side,yeah) when your heavier comrades (soldier, heavy) have killed most of the enemy resistance You have very little health I don't think Scout is the powerfulst class in the game

The OP's post made me feel sad for some reason.

[QUOTE=Cpt. Private;23576401]Eh...no? Running in a Pyro--> Fucked Running in a Sentry-->Fucked Being seen to early-->Fucked You can only break through (to the other side,yeah) when your heavier comrades (soldier, heavy) have killed most of the enemy resistance You have very little health I don't think Scout is the powerfulst class in the game[/QUOTE]Maybe if you're a bad scout A good Scout can beat any class in the game one on one, period