Does anyone else think that unique class roles are being slowly diminished? - Games

Don't forget the Scattergun can kill, say, a pyro in 2 dead-on shots.

I think the question is: Is this a bad thing?

[QUOTE=Cpt. Private;23576401]Running in a Pyro--> Fucked[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT1WnR21gv0[/media] [editline]11:52AM[/editline] Running into a Natascha Heavy, maybe, but Scouts absolutely rape Pyros. [editline]11:53AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Max of S2D;23575202]Basically: it's more fun and it makes the game less frustrating because you have to rely slightly less on your teammates[/QUOTE] [b]Team[/b] Fortress 2

I think, for the most part, Valve has done an okay job with the updates. I don't think the soldier/demoman update was particularly strong (namely the equaliser and demoknight), but that isn't to say it wasn't enjoyable. I always found their decision to make the demoman the best melee fighter in the game rather odd, especially considering his 'defensive' unlock (scottish resistance) was boring and frankly unimaginative (therefore discouraging defensive play). I think you are exaggerating in some points, the pyro being able to rocket jump is incredibly situational, and the engineer can hardly manouver around maps with the same precision and mobility as the soldier. My only gripe with the new unlockables is that some of them seem unimaginative and dull. The unlockable has two elements, its function and its visuals. The visuals should demonstrate its function, looking at the huntsman you realise its a bow and arrow that probably requires some sort of charging ability. Nothing about Natascha tells you it does lower damage and reduces your movement speed. The kind of unlockables that modify the original weapons stats (direct hit, natascha, scottish resistance, backburner etc) are the most boring in visual terms, and often seem to be the weapons most complained about. I don't really like the one-use lunchbox items but hey, they are pretty cool to use. Unlockables like the flare gun, the huntsman etc to me are the most exciting. They offer something new rather than just fiddling with the original weapon.

[QUOTE=combine487;23588895]especially considering his 'defensive' unlock (scottish resistance) was boring and frankly unimaginative (therefore discouraging defensive play). [/QUOTE] The sco-res gives you triple more stickies, plus stickies under your crosshair explode. It makes up for so many good defending possibilities, you can i.e. lay stickies down on all intel room entrances and blow 'em up where the carrier's going without wasting all of your other stickies. I don't see how the ScoRes is boring, I really like it just because of these features.

[QUOTE=Recurracy;23588939]The sco-res gives you triple more stickies, plus stickies under your crosshair explode. It makes up for so many good defending possibilities, you can i.e. lay stickies down on all intel room entrances and blow 'em up where the carrier's going without wasting all of your other stickies. I don't see how the ScoRes is boring, I really like it just because of these features.[/QUOTE] It's boring because it doesn't really change the gameplay of the Demo all that much. At it's heart, you're still just setting off remote controlled bombs. Compare it to the Hunstman or the FaN. While they may be despised by some, you can't deny it opens up an entirely new playstyle for the class. However, we must bear in mind that a new playstyle isn't always good. The FaN is better in this regard than the Huntsman. [editline]06:22PM[/editline] I now realise I am arguing two contradictory points.

[QUOTE=Keychain;23567914]Because TF2 would still be nearly as successful as it is today without all the updates. No, shut up. I wouldn't have played TF2 for months if not years if it weren't for these updates. The game DID get boring back when it had no unique weapons.[/QUOTE] And congratulations you miss the point entirely.

I disagree entirely about the bleed thing and the jarate being a grenade. But the homewrecker should NOT exist. Not only having it remove sappers but being BETTER at removing sappers than an engy? Bullshit, remove it.

Lol,i'd think otherwise. Scout: Bonk is used just for getting through something dangerous and running away, which is what he does, he is suppose to fast and agile, his speed would let him close up on whatever and get away. Soldier: Equalizer isn't bad, so there's a speed buff, but he has to be dying for it to be effective, while the scout doesn't need to be dying to use his speed. But the pain train is reasonable, most of the defensive classes(for me, it's heavy, engineer and sniper) use bullets, heavy's minigun, engi's sentry and sniper's sniper, and their guns are already deadly, while the scout, has the advantage of Bonk. Pyro: He still the only one capable of burning [b]multiple[/b] people while doing decent damage, he's also the only one able to reflect, and blow almost everything. He's also the most powerful counter measure against spies, and the homewrecker further improves it. He's also, still more capable than demoman in close range, you guys just aren't thinking hard enough, with back burner and axtinguisher, he's simply just got more effective in close range offense. Demoman: His role is grenading, or thats what i will call it. In defense, ScoRes is neat, better than the sticky bomb in defense, but the targe, is also defensive. Demoman, is the trap master, and the targe is part of it. The targe charges in a straight line, and also gives extra defense to fire and explosives(which come from offensive classes). In offence, sure, his targe can get to stuff fast, but main disadvantage, is the same as pain train, still vulnerable to bullets, that takes out half of the targe's power. And for close combat, the eyelander, was useless without the targe, i mean, no crits, i could kill more people with a bottle and the skullcutter was to fill up demo's weakness of CQC without targe. Heavy: Sandvich, it's not as good as a medic, but it helps. Because there isn't much medics(or at least when i'm playing), he's capable of restoring health at the chance of something as lethal as backstab, stickybombs, backburn or a headshot coming too easily, plus ham does not give uber. Engineer: Now he definetely stole alot of things, but never better than the originals. Wrangler, put the engi at risk, he is more likely to put it out in the open for offense due to headshots and back stabs and for defense, he's still at risk for backstabs and shooting himself. The dispenser is never able to replace the medic, because it can't move or uber, plus, it's only truly effective at lvl3. Medic: No one can beat him at healing. He heals the fastest and gives uber. His healing, is portable, always active, and you still can do your shooting while being healed. And if the situation is serious, ubercharge, which is total invincibility or crits, both being effective. Sniper: No one can beat him at sniping, derp. The sniper, will always, be able to kill, with one shot. The huntsmen is simply a mid range sniper, no biggy. Spy: He's by far, the most unique. The ambassy doesn't one hit kill on headshots, i find it useful when backstabbing is not an option. TL:DR Every class still have their roles, but the other classes simply have taken a bit of it, not enough to actually replace the original.

All the unlocks are just options. If you take the pain train you can 'scout rush' as a soldier, with a scout. It also has a 20% damage vulnerability to make you more like a fragile scout.

If you ask me, Valve seems to have moved from a class-to-class balancing model to a weapon-to-weapon one. While class-to-class roles were essential in original tf2, individual weapons now allow the player to pick different roles for multiple classes. I like the way things are now.

I agree, the classes are becoming different than what they used to be, but massively changing everything would cause panic. Valve can't just delete the system, people would go mad and spam the forums with their rage and their petitions to bring it back, despite does nothing at all. Valve could change the stats, but people are so used to the current versions of the classes that they would have to evolve to the newer versions as fast as Valve changed them. If the classes went back to their original state, then everyone might just go vanilla, because everyone remembers those weapons rather than the edited newer ones.

OP gives valid points, but I think the blurred lines are an attempt to remove rock-paper-scissors logic. (Ignoring random crits for a second here.) It's true that some weapons are infringing too much upon class roles, but the overall change isn't too bad. Maybe it's a good away to avoid power creep, I dunno.