Major Update Speculation XXVI: Much Ado About Nothing - Games

I wonder thats what valve meant by "confusing"

[QUOTE=ElderLolz;48126943]That would explain why the train "hud" would still be there in SFM. Really interesting to hear how you mappers work your way around these things[/QUOTE] [URL="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=24782"]I wrote an article thing about what we did to get around a lot of issues over at TF2Maps.net.[/URL] Did you know that Snowplow is definitely the largest map shipped with TF2 at the moment, possibly the largest one made ever? [QUOTE=Freeze;48126946]But why does that mean you can't improve it to make it clearer, which is people's main complaint about Snowplow?[/QUOTE] It was a bit of an oversight, lack of time and just general lot more work than we could put in. We could have added a bit towards the top of the screen that said "Time until train damage" or something else from the whole slew of suggestions we've received. What about all the custom huds? People who use minimal HUD vs. Non-minimal? There was a lot we would've had to account for that we just couldn't solve with resources we had. Now, you might be wondering "What about if you just did a screen overlay to control the whole HUD, remove the timer and did something else like that?" If we want to do anything besides just the train health, like another way of showing the time left until a hit, we'd need to have another screen overlay for each of those. For example,[URL="http://i.imgur.com/5wBRScc.jpg"] this is one of the mocks (it's crappy)[/URL] that I made back in [I]August[/I] where the train health was at the top of screen, along with a series of bars showing the duration til the hit. If we wanted to do this with screen overlays, we'd need 4, per health level. So thats 3 bars, 2 bars, 1 bar, no bars, per health. Thats 10 (10 to 100 health) times 4 for each bar set screen overlays. A MINIMUM of 40 entities, to run the HUD along with all the other entities needed to just trigger/untrigger the screen overlays whenever needed. The maps already massive, and used a lot of the alloted entity space. [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1469584&p=47951602#post47951602"]We were pushing it to begin with,[/URL] so we had to simplify when we found out we weren't getting gamemode support from Valve. For those interested, these were the other mocks I threw together. EDIT: Those images were huge, so here's links instead D: [URL="http://i.imgur.com/ZH8AyMm.jpg"]Snowplow HUD Mock 1[/URL] [URL="http://i.imgur.com/IZ0WvmY.jpg"]Snowplow HUD Mock 2[/URL] [URL="http://i.imgur.com/KQzU8Gh.jpg"]Snowplow HUD Mock 3[/URL]

[QUOTE=Snowshoe;48126694]How cool would it be if Arena was actually a good gamemode and not a catastrophically failed attempt to shoehorn Counter-Strike mechanics into Team Fortress' class based system which doesn't work well at all? If only there was something... what if we removed everyone except Sniper, and made TF2 a faster paced game designed around killing the enemy team instead of capturing objectives? I think I'm onto something here...[/QUOTE] Stop acting like Counter Strike invented Team Last Man Standing ( or in other words, arena mode) It's been in other games and really I see no good reason for it to have failed due to gameplay reasons. I bet if they introduced it to the quickplay menu, it would suddenly get players again. Also, guess what you do 90% of the time in VSH? You wait.

[QUOTE=Fr0z3n;48127082][URL="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=24782"]I wrote an article thing about what we did to get around a lot of issues over at TF2Maps.net.[/URL] Did you know that Snowplow is definitely the largest map shipped with TF2 at the moment, possibly the largest one made ever? It was a bit of an oversight, lack of time and just general lot more work than we could put in. We could have added a bit towards the top of the screen that said "Time until train damage" or something else from the whole slew of suggestions we've received. What about all the custom huds? People who use minimal HUD vs. Non-minimal? There was a lot we would've had to account for that we just couldn't solve with resources we had. Now, you might be wondering "What about if you just did a screen overlay to control the whole HUD, remove the timer and did something else like that?" If we want to do anything besides just the train health, like another way of showing the time left until a hit, we'd need to have another screen overlay for each of those. For example,[URL="http://i.imgur.com/5wBRScc.jpg"] this is one of the mocks (it's crappy)[/URL] that I made back in [I]August[/I] where the train health was at the top of screen, along with a series of bars showing the duration til the hit. If we wanted to do this with screen overlays, we'd need 4, per health level. So thats 3 bars, 2 bars, 1 bar, no bars, per health. Thats 10 (10 to 100 health) times 4 for each bar set screen overlays. A MINIMUM of 40 entities, to run the HUD along with all the other entities needed to just trigger/untrigger the screen overlays whenever needed. The maps already massive, and used a lot of the alloted entity space. [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1469584&p=47951602#post47951602"]We were pushing it to begin with,[/URL] so we had to simplify when we found out we weren't getting gamemode support from Valve. For those interested, these were the other mocks I threw together. EDIT: Those images were huge, so here's links instead D: [URL="http://i.imgur.com/ZH8AyMm.jpg"]Snowplow HUD Mock 1[/URL] [URL="http://i.imgur.com/IZ0WvmY.jpg"]Snowplow HUD Mock 2[/URL] [URL="http://i.imgur.com/KQzU8Gh.jpg"]Snowplow HUD Mock 3[/URL][/QUOTE] You seem to be ignoring the fact that the whole new hud stuff is functionally identical to a normal timer. The time until the next hit and the train's health are both just middle-men to the time remaining in the round. There's no reason not to scrap the other hud stuff and replace it with a normal countdown timer. The train health is a needlessly complicated and less informative way of telling the player the exact same thing.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48127107]You seem to be ignoring the fact that the whole new hud stuff is functionally identical to a normal timer. The time until the next hit and the train's health are both just middle-men to the time remaining in the round. There's no reason not to scrap the other hud stuff and replace it with a normal countdown timer. The train health is a needlessly complicated and less informative way of telling the player the exact same thing.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=The Kins;48127031][B][I]YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO.[/I][/B] There's a timer already in the game! It actually works and displays the proper time left! [I]You made a simple game mechanic worse just to be different[/I]. Well, that's not fair. Maybe YM did it.[/QUOTE] We could've [switched to just a timer], you are both 1000% correct. But we didn't want to do that. We wanted to make a unique level/map/gamemode, we wanted to try something [I]new[/I] so we did. This is what feedback lead us to. There was a vision for the map and we stuck to it. Instead of making another CP A/D map, we decided to take our own twist on it. Whether it's good or bad is still up in the air. Some people like it, other don't. EDIT: Realized that it wasn't very clear what I was saying, so I added the [ ] stuff as clarification.

Spy's box taunt should have additional tremble animation when he is being shot at or when someone is touching him. Also spy shouldn't be able to cap and block capping the point while taunting. That would make it worse c&d, you are not invisible entirely but you still blend in. After that it still could be considered to be a weapon and not a purely cosmetic taunt. Since you can't stand in one place with invis watch or DR and this gives you at least some stealth. Maybe it could have some sound effect, cigarette smoke particle or animation loop so it's will not blend in the background so much? Or maybe just make it to be equipable with c&d only?

I wish I was dead. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/6wp5ZMg.jpg[/IMG] (I [I]was[/I] going to go for the bonus points, honest, but then someone did a successful Scramble Teams vote and now I'm building a time machine to make sure that the public release of SFM never happened.)

I actually really like all the new maps, when they fucking load properly. I haven't had the issue of Suijin loading incorrectly since the 4MB patch yesterday, but we'll see what happens. Honestly I think if the voice lines were better, and the HUD was changed a little bit, Snowplow would be an excellent and unique map. But those are pretty minor complaints.

A huge (biggest?) problem with snowplow is the lack of communcation from game to player. I've had to explain numerous times, on both attack and defense, that you can't hurt the train with your guns, and that you can't push the train by standing on it. Multiple people have ignored the actual objectives to do either of those things, and their/my team suffers from having a "empty slot." If we could get a movie about how the train is damaged, and how to progress thorugh capping points, this would all be cleared up in an instant, poor(?) design choices nonwithstanding.

[QUOTE=TheLonelyDonu;48127226]A huge (biggest?) problem with snowplow is the lack of communcation from game to player. I've had to explain numerous times, on both attack and defense, that you can't hurt the train with your guns, and that you can't push the train by standing on it. Multiple people have ignored the actual objectives to do either of those things, and their/my team suffers from having a "empty slot." If we could get a movie about how the train is damaged, and how to progress thorugh capping points, this would all be cleared up in an instant, poor(?) design choices nonwithstanding.[/QUOTE]Well, you can't blame them. I mean, making TF2 videos is hard.

the moment I saw the train stop at the first trap I pretty much instantly understood every bit of it all. it drives so fast I don't see how anybody could think you have to stay close to it.

[QUOTE=TheLonelyDonu;48127226]A huge (biggest?) problem with snowplow is the lack of communcation from game to player. I've had to explain numerous times, on both attack and defense, that you can't hurt the train with your guns, and that you can't push the train by standing on it. Multiple people have ignored the actual objectives to do either of those things, and their/my team suffers from having a "empty slot." If we could get a movie about how the train is damaged, and how to progress thorugh capping points, this would all be cleared up in an instant, poor(?) design choices nonwithstanding.[/QUOTE] McVee had said that Valve had data to show that people do NOT watch those at all and they aren't that useful. It's my understanding that they advised to not worry about making a start-up video. (At least, that is what I was told/understand when I suggested creating one, [I]just in case[/I])

Perhaps just have the administrator say something about how your guns cannot damage the train, similar to what the announcer says when you load into rd_asteroid?

i think i found a civilian glitch (might be late) as scout, equip the flying guillotine, suicide, respawn with the flying guillotine, and pick up your old one. dang im late

[QUOTE=tier22;48127341]i think i found a civilian glitch (might be late) as scout, equip the flying guillotine, suicide, respawn with the flying guillotine, and pick up your old one. dang im late[/QUOTE] You think that's late? That's nothin. I once worked with some novice history students who seemed so shocked by their discovery of Germany's invasion of Poland in an old newspaper, they mistook it for a recent event. "Oh my God! Did you hear about this?! How many days ago was it?!?" And people wonder why we shouldn't take money out of history classes.....

I think an interesting twist for Snowplow is for it to be both a A/D capture point and payload map. You must "push" the train towards the next area, but it will be blocked by a barricade that must be destroyed by capping a point. There would be cranes that would follow the train around and dropping it's load by a timer if the train isn't moving around.

So, uhh, this might be late, but I found out that when an Engineer dies while using the Wrangler, his sentry stays disabled for a second, as opposed to the 3 seconds what the update told. Also, have they intentionally nerfed sentry rocketjumping? Seems to launch you a lot shorter than before.

[QUOTE=DrCactus;48127313]Perhaps just have the administrator say something about how your guns cannot damage the train, similar to what the announcer says when you load into rd_asteroid?[/QUOTE] Or just give the thing a regular timer. And just have the train be a prop for the stage.

Well, I just noticed that my coin only counted the contract I did when they fixed it to release the crates, not the first two I did....Should I email them about it? Cause frankly that's bullshit.

[QUOTE=Fr0z3n;48127148]We could've [switched to just a timer], you are both 1000% correct. But we didn't want to do that. We wanted to make a unique level/map/gamemode, we wanted to try something [I]new[/I] so we did. This is what feedback lead us to. There was a vision for the map and we stuck to it. Instead of making another CP A/D map, we decided to take our own twist on it. Whether it's good or bad is still up in the air. Some people like it, other don't. EDIT: Realized that it wasn't very clear what I was saying, so I added the [ ] stuff as clarification.[/QUOTE] I'd say that this is a bit of a misnomer. Snowplow wasn't originally "another CP A/D map," the original iterations played significantly differently. If I'm not mistaken, this predated the time when you stepped in to help. The game mode had numerous control points, every odd control point was a [i]Juncture[/i] and every even control point was a [i]Trap[/i]. When an odd control point was active, it was BLU's goal to capture it before the train passed the juncture. If BLU was successful, the train would take a shortcut and skip the control point that had the trap. This is the different idea, a train-focused mode around shepherding it toward its ultimate destination (or getting in the way). This was unique, it was very different, but it had some significant problems; most notably that the train controlled how the game would flow instead of putting that in players' hands. You know those AI escort missions where they inevitably walk themselves into danger and you need to ward off all hazards? It was that, in online multiplayer team-based FPS form. And there was nothing the players could do to halt this single-track AI from putting itself into those situations. So the game would become a race against the clock...I believe it was 60 seconds. That's a very very short amount of time. While it wasn't the end of the world, it forced the attacking team to take a longer and more-defended route to capture the control point associated with the trap before the train came to a stop and started getting damaged by sawblades or sommat. That ultimately got canned and the mode we have now just feels like a desperate attempt to hold onto something that didn't work out; an attempt to keep the train as the focus of the entire map instead of being a finale like it was in the short. You guys tried and I respect that there were numerous efforts to make it work, but there comes a point where pride must be swallowed and failed efforts discarded. While ripping on the map and mode, I don't think enough people are acknowledging where the mode started out. Those who participated in the tests from the beginning got a chance to see the map transform incrementally and slowly. Other than major layout changes, not too much seemed to be different between different versions. It's in seeing those slight alterations first-hand that one can understand why the mode is how it is on release. It's much easier to look at a finished product and point out flaws than it is to point out flaws while actively working on something. Tenacity and a bit of stubbornness can be both a good quality and a bad one; I'd say that this was a poor situation for it.

[QUOTE=The Kins;48127031][B][I]YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO.[/I][/B] There's a timer already in the game! It actually works and displays the proper time left! [I]You made a simple game mechanic worse just to be different[/I].[/QUOTE] Don't you have anything better to do with your time than be a miserable git on the internet? I chose to do something different, something [I]marginally[/I] different and this has sent you into a crazed rage. Get over it. Go channel that frustration into something productive, bake a cake, do some DIY, paint a picture, heck why don't you make a map that [I]you'd[/I] like to play.

[QUOTE=Youme;48127570]Don't you have anything better to do with your time than be a miserable git on the internet? I chose to do something different, something [I]marginally[/I] different and this has sent you into a crazed rage. Get over it. Go channel that frustration into something productive, bake a cake, do some DIY, paint a picture, heck why don't you make a map that [I]you'd[/I] like to play.[/QUOTE] You can see the wonderful juxtaposition between YM and I. Also, if you make a cake. I want some, I LOVE cake.

[QUOTE=The Kins;48127031][B][I]YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO.[/I][/B] There's a timer already in the game! It actually works and displays the proper time left! [I]You made a simple game mechanic worse just to be different[/I]. Well, that's not fair. Maybe YM did it.[/QUOTE] lmao if you people are seriously convinced having a unique timer will completely kill a map you need to rethink how map design works. Map elements should be easily readable for new players yes, but if you can't figure out the map after a few rounds then frankly you just have a problem with basic attention skills

In my opinion snowplow would be way better if it was just changed from the train hud to the basic capture point/timer hud and just leave the train as a dynamic prop (which if possible should totally be implemented imo) but it's also not a problem detrimental enough to the map to cause some of these angry comments. Other than the hud and the sometimes janky train movements the actual map is pretty good!

[QUOTE=Snowshoe;48126535]"muh CS" Yes it's so much fun to watch a spy run around with cloak and dagger all day or dead ringer whenever someone sees him. It's also fun to sit out the entire game even though you were the one actually doing something. My point is CS gameplay in TF2 is shit, that's why it has failed, not because of quickplay. It failed LONG before that ever happened. The only reason it's even around on some servers is because of custom gamemodes like saxton hale and freak fortress.[/QUOTE] I think the reason CS works better than TF2's arena mode is that most CS servers don't have 32 man servers.

[QUOTE=Dr. Doughnut;48127757]I think the reason CS works better than TF2's arena mode is that most CS servers don't have 32 man servers.[/QUOTE] Maybe not anymore, but back when arena mode was released and we had our 64 player 24/7 dust2 servers. Unless you did PUGs there were a lot of 32+ player servers.

I wonder, can we expect a contract today aswell?

[QUOTE=Youme;48127570]Don't you have anything better to do with your time than be a miserable git on the internet?[/QUOTE]I've spent close to half a decade on-and-off twatting around with the one type of TF2 mod that [I]can't[/I] be turned into much-needed lucre. Does that answer your question?[QUOTE=Punchy;48127589]but if you can't figure out the map after a few rounds then frankly you just have a problem with basic attention skills[/QUOTE]Have you [I]been[/I] on a Valve server before? I'm an ultra-handsome god-king with arms like a condom full of basketballs and an IQ that resembles a phone number, but not even I can win if the shortbus squadron I'm paired with keeps trying to bash their heads against something that's contrary to what every other map across TF2's existence has taught them (that things with lifebars die when you shoot them).

Is it just my game, or do valve servers in general seem extremely difficult to connect to? I suppose they're busy pushing out updates, but still.

Probably the most jarring thing the map boasts is just how [i]slow[/i] the train is. If you jump into the map after having watched End of the Line, there's nothing really tying the two together other than seeing BLU's decrepit base in the distance, the train's destination, the fact that there is a train, and the music that plays before the train enters the area and before the train is destroyed. The train [i]not[/i] being a runaway is what makes the comparison so jarring. The entirety of the short was focused on [i]stopping[/i] a runaway, and it wasn't until the climax of the short that the train finally came to an abrupt and violent halt. The Snowplow train doesn't feel as powerful, as unstoppable, as important of a threat. Hell, the finale of the map itself has the train moving a dinky 200 feet before smashing into its target at a moderate speed; other than the explosion, it's a really underwhelming climax. As I stated before, removing the train from the map until the round victor is decided could very well give it that runaway feeling. BLU winning on the snow-part of the map could match the scene where Sniper and Scout first see the train zipping past and then giving chase. That brief glance at each other with a look of desperation and a silent "Oh shit" before they embark down the mountain to try to stop it. Then of course RED winning on the grassy-part of the map would match the train impact climax from the short. Although from watching the short, you could expect to see several players trying to recreate the scene with Heavy, which could've been an achievement to tie in with the map. These are the focal and impactful moments in the short, the map doesn't meet those expectations set forth. As it stands now, it's not EotL [i]enough[/i] to make me, as a player, think the map harkens back to the short. It just feels like a disjointed Attack/Defense map with an odd timer mechanic.