Major Update Speculation XXVI: Much Ado About Nothing - Games

[QUOTE=TheJoey;48226791]temporary official maps? weird.[/QUOTE] That's how CS:GO does it for their operations. All of the maps, even the permanent offical maps that have been in the game sence the start, are on the workshop. The offical servers host the operation maps until the end of it, then the op maps go back to being workshop submissions that are subscribed by default.

But like 70% of TF2 players are on Valve servers, and the rest are on stock 24/7 servers. If they remove them from stock rotation, they're dead, period.

They aren't removed in CS:GO, they're just left there, rotting.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;48226859]With CSGO Operations do community servers get a copy of the maps to run during the operation like how community servers can run the 3 community maps from the Gun Mettle campaign? From what I understand the CSGO Operations are just for playing those maps on Valve servers but I could be wrong.[/QUOTE] With the addition of the Maps Workshop, I can see them trying to push more towards trials using that after a campaign ends. Any community-run server can opt into using the map in post, but that still poses the problem of it being difficult to find a community-run server that's populated enough.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;48226753]So [URL="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=24789&p=333616#post333616"]Fr0Z3n heard back from Valve[/URL] about Borneo, Snowplow and Suijin being official maps. Basically Valve isn't sure if they are going to remain official after the Gun Mettle Campaign ends and are monitoring the TF2 community for feedback on the maps. I do believe that if Valve does decide to not make some or all of the maps from the Gun Mettle update official there will be a lot of very unhappy people in the TF2 community.[/QUOTE] Lmao imagine the insane backlash if snowplow was [U][B]un[/B][/U]added

[QUOTE=Punchy;48227063]Lmao imagine the insane backlash if snowplow was [U][B]un[/B][/U]added[/QUOTE] what was promised of snowplow in its original incarnation doesn't really seem like is even in the game anyway. though i never played the beta, wasnt there something about damaging the train and opening up shorter routes for it, etc?

[QUOTE=TheJoey;48227085]what was promised of snowplow in its original incarnation doesn't really seem like is even in the game anyway. though i never played the beta, wasnt there something about damaging the train and opening up shorter routes for it, etc?[/QUOTE] In those iterations of the map, the train moved at its own pace. Every odd-numbered control point was a juncture where the tracks split. If BLU capped quickly enough, the train would take the shortcut route and skip the following control point. If BLU was too slow, the train would continue onward until it gets lodged in a trap where it's repeatedly damaged until BLU frees it by capturing the associated control point. This was problematic because the train dictated game flow instead of players dictating game flow. In addition a steamrolling BLU team will steamroll hard (as the defenders will find that they lose ground very very quickly when the train is taking several shortcuts), while a BLU team that hits a wall will get dragged through the mud as they're forced to take the more-difficult attack routes in addition to losing train health.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;48227101]In those iterations of the map, the train moved at its own pace. Every odd-numbered control point was a juncture where the tracks split. If BLU capped quickly enough, the train would take the shortcut route and skip the following control point. If BLU was too slow, the train would continue onward until it gets lodged in a trap where it's repeatedly damaged until BLU frees it by capturing the associated control point. This was problematic because the train dictated game flow instead of players dictating game flow. In addition a steamrolling BLU team will steamroll hard (as the defenders will find that they lose ground very very quickly when the train is taking several shortcuts), while a BLU team that hits a wall will get dragged through the mud as they're forced to take the more-difficult attack routes in addition to losing train health.[/QUOTE] i see. so basically this is just the faster, more straight forward version of that. i think the whole damaging train thing is still really weird and confusing without any explanation and super tacked on, when in reality its still the same "5 minutes to defend, +30 seconds per cap" system as normal cp. and yet when valve said it was confusing to new players, everyone got mad at valve. ????? quite frankly it can go and i wouldn't be bothered that much, as much as i enjoy playing the map.

I might be late, but I have an idea for the new mus thread name MUS: "One more "TF:GO" comment and so help me......"

[QUOTE=TheJoey;48226791]temporary official maps? weird.[/QUOTE] Sort of but CS:GO experiences it all the time (except for the occasional FMPONE map getting permanently included like Cache), but for TF2 it would definitely be weird.

I would HIGHLY reccomend that they keep all of them.

I hope they excommunicate Snowplow to the wastelands of the L4D2 workshop and replace it with a snowy version of Powerhouse. Powerhouse is great. Play Powerhouse.

If I'm honest, I'm still shocked there were some people who reacted to snowplow's inclusion negatively. I thought they'd be thrilled.

-snip late-

I'm not a map designer and it's 2:30 am so this is probably a terrible idea, but I just had an idea for an EOTL inspired map. KOTH with the cap point at the bottom of the hill. Only one timer, with that being the time remaining until the train crashes. When red team is in control of the cap point a barrier is propped up which stops the train from crashing; when blu is in control of the cap the barrier goes down. The team controlling the point will determine if the train will crash into the orphanage or stop short. Basically, the team in control of the point when time runs out wins. Like I said, this is probably a bad idea and probably the wrong place to post this, but we were talking about snowplow and that gave me the idea.

[QUOTE=wickedplayer494;48227397]Sort of but CS:GO experiences it all the time (except for the occasional FMPONE map getting permanently included like Cache), but for TF2 it would definitely be weird.[/QUOTE] OK I don't care if there's a gun to my head but this is the ultimate evidence that proves TF2 is better. Yes TF2 has shitty maps, and yes CS:GO has(had?) shitty maps. But we [B]DO NOT[/B] abandon our shitty maps. Junction is shitty but it's [B]OUR[/B] shitty map, yes, Dustbowl is a fucking fusterfuck, but it's [B]OUR[/B] fucking fusterfuck. Hoodoo? More like FUCKING Poodoo. We keep our shitty maps as a reminder, as a testament, to prevent bad map-making. By remembering shitty maps, we prevent the same mistakes from being made again. Sometimes the ignorant ignore history, sometimes even the profesionals [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Doomsday"]ignore the history[/URL] of [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Carnival_of_Carnage"]what makes a bad map bad.[/URL] But even then, if even the smallest of hope comes from it, then it has already succeeded. When CS:GO removes it's shitty maps, it does none of that, allowing the same mistakes to be made again. They will be repeated, for all of time [B][I][U]Now[/U][/I][/B] Imagine TF2 without shitty maps, what kind of game is it? No Shitbowl, no Poodoo, no Stalemate Tower, Not even a Junction, fore it has no more power No Doomsday due to its tragic descent, And certainly no more Doomsday_event When you think about it, you realize what would be ripped out of the game- Those who do not care would simply exclaim- "yay! the shitty maps are gone!" Yes, true, but what else has been undawned? The thousands of hours that made those maps? What about this new gap, of which has been filled, with nothing but a large crap? The emotions are empty, the feeling of sorrow You think of those moments your memories of those maps, now they are lonely You hope for tomorrow, but it does not come, why? If you removed all the bad maps from TF2, you would seriously ruin the game, instead of improving it. You would remove character from the game, and when you really think about, character, is all this game has. [B]And so[/B], I pose this question fore you all ponder: If TF2 without shitty maps is no longer TF2, then is CS:GO without shitty maps, still CS:GO?

[QUOTE=CoalTen;48227585]I'm not a map designer and it's 2:30 am so this is probably a terrible idea, but...[/QUOTE] If all that matters is who controls the point at the very end, then I think that might lead to some very problematic gameplay. Cheese Tactic Number 1 - Last Second Uber Rush Holding the point for the first 99% of the match is meaningless if you lose it right at the last 1%. Instead of trying to push the enemy off the point and hold it forever, just sit back, build up a half dozen ubers, rush the point with 30 seconds on the clock, and kill everyone and cap before they can respawn. Cheese Tactic Number 2 - Engineer Nest o' Doom Self explanatory. Few things are less fun for everyone involved than heavy turtling. This was a common problem on certain segments of Hydro, back in the day. That said, I think we could tweak the idea a bit to make it work. Instead of victory being based on whoever controls the point at the final second, why not just have it work like a normal KOTH match with each team having their own timer they need to run down? You can still keep the whole train aspect, with RED defending and BLU attacking, you just need to make it a cosmetic factor. While BLU controls the point, the train moves forward, and when it moves far enough it crashes and you win. While RED controls the point, the train is "blocked", and slowly takes "damage" until it gets blown up. In both cases, the actual mechanical "goal" is to hold the point long enough to win.

[QUOTE=omegasupreme1;48227633] [B]And so[/B], I pose this question fore you all ponder: If TF2 without [I]shitty maps[/I] is no longer TF2, then is CS:GO without shitty maps, still CS:GO?[/QUOTE] mind you, of all these maps only junction is a really bad map* *to me.

[QUOTE=Metaru;48227728]mind you, of all these maps only junction is a really bad map* *to me.[/QUOTE] I see you never played doomsday_event

[QUOTE=omegasupreme1;48227770]I see you never played doomsday_event[/QUOTE] i'd hardly ever take doomsday_event seriusly for anything. its meant to be a clusterfuck and it plays just like that, but that hardly derives from a poorly designed layout like junction is.

[QUOTE=Jetamo;48226844]It's more because people are thinking it's going to follow 1:1 with how CSGO does their operations. Namely, the BSPs are removed from everyone's copy of the game as soon as the operation ends.[/QUOTE] I wanted to say that it's extremely fucking dumb, but CS:GO apparently has a somewhat adapted map system. I'm saying somewhat because I still find it stupid to have temporary maps. But on TF2, the whole point of making maps official is that they'll be available on Valve servers, aka the general public. Community TF2 servers are usually running their own custom maps, sometimes even gamemodes. If the maps aren't available to the general public anymore after the campaign, you won't be able to find them anywhere else anymore. In short, TF2 isn't adapted to this system. If that's what the map workshop was for...well, it won't change anything, because it's not even ardressing the issue. (That may also means that this year's Halloween event isn't here to stay.)

Personally, I'm "okay" with the possibility of temporary maps. HOWEVER, what I'm not personally okay with is the assets from maps (such as the trees from Borneo, or the Japan props in Suijin) not being added to the game fully. A large deterrent in getting people to play custom maps is often the download size and how long it takes to download in game. Adding more and more assets to the game like the Japan theme pack, or the Construction theme, would help out so much more for mappers. I mean, obviously I'd like the maps to stay if possible, but if it means we get to see more maps added to the game (even temporarily) I think it benefits in the long run.

[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;48226753]So [URL="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=24789&p=333616#post333616"]Fr0Z3n heard back from Valve[/URL] about Borneo, Snowplow and Suijin being official maps. Basically Valve isn't sure if they are going to remain official after the Gun Mettle Campaign ends and are monitoring the TF2 community for feedback on the maps. I do believe that if Valve does decide to not make some or all of the maps from the Gun Mettle update official there will be a lot of very unhappy people in the TF2 community.[/QUOTE] That's dumb. Don't see what makes Suijun, Borneo and Snowplow different from the other maps in the rotation. I just don't understand why you can't just make them official and add map stamps and strange filters to the store like everything else. And where does that leave Powerhouse? "Oh we're gonna add Powerhouse to the maps because we made it but the three community we won't add to the system."

[QUOTE=Steel & Iron;48228781]That's dumb. Don't see what makes Suijun, Borneo and Snowplow different from the other maps in the rotation. I just don't understand why you can't just make them official and add map stamps and strange filters to the store like everything else. And where does that leave Powerhouse? "Oh we're gonna add Powerhouse to the maps because we made it but the three community we won't add to the system."[/QUOTE] Normally when Valve adds a map to the game they outright buy it from the community map makers (along with any custom assets used in the map). The creator of Process and Standin, which were the 2 last maps added normally besides Snakewater, received $7,000 for each of the maps. However the Gun Mettle campaign was different. Valve never bought the the maps, they are just giving the community map makers who made the 3 maps a portion of the revenue from people buying the campaign pass. No one knew what exactly the status of the maps were until Frozen got that email. Honestly I can't believe Valve isn't sure what they are going to do with the maps when the campaign is done. The main reason that the TF2 community was angry with Valve with End of the Line was because people were looking forward to Snowplow and didn't get it, now there is the possibility that we'll have it (and 2 other community maps) for 3 months and then they'll be gone. Honestly that's even more cruel then not shipping Snowplow in the first place. How does Valve think the community will react if the maps are gone in 3 months, not only from Valve servers but from community servers as well? Do they think the community will be okay or wont mind the maps suddenly being gone? Honestly they just need to buy any maps included as part of a campaign and officially add them. If they want to make the campaign sales the purchase instead of them paying a lump sum and then just add in map stamps I think most map makers would be okay with that, since they'll almost certainly get more then $7,000. Valve hasn't taken away gameplay content from the TF2 community in almost 8 years and they are thinking about doing that now? Sometimes I really love Valve but other times I just can't comprehend their decision making process. The really sad thing is if they don't decide to make these 3 maps official the $21,000 or so it would cost them to buy the maps is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the money they'll be making off the campaign passes, the keys, the community market sales and the taunt sales from the Gun Mettle update. I wouldn't be surprised if they made well over $21,000 on the update within the first few minutes of the store working after the update.

Well as YM put it a few pages back stats.tf has a little over 49,000 coins and passes scanned in the system, and that alone does enough to cover buying the maps outright. And even then it doesn't account for passes and coins not scanned into the system, key sales and the stuff sold on the market.

So generally most people are for keeping the maps available in game, along with adding assets associated to the maps, and there are others who are okay with them removing them. (Should note that it was also said that [I][B]there is a possibility[/B][/I] maps may stay ingame for a little while after an event for server operators to adjust accordingly. How do you guys feel about how that could cause game-size bloat? You assume each map, uncompressed is around 100-200MB each if you add the assets. If this happens even twice a year, thats 600-1200mb added to the game, just from maps alone. Technically keeping the .bsp packed with assets, keeps that down as each file is much smaller overall.

If they remove the maps it will be one of the dumbest thing Valve have ever done. If a map is good enough to be in the game for three months with a paid campaign it's good enough to be in the general rotation. There's almost no benefit to removing them.

[QUOTE=Freeze;48229204]There's almost no benefit to removing them.[/QUOTE] keeping download size low when downloading the game. especially if theyre gonna add maps every campaign.

Maybe if it wasn't a case of removing it as SOON as the campaign ends? Like, it can stay in until the NEXT campaign ends? That'd end up being six months or so.

[QUOTE=TheJoey;48229215]keeping download size low when downloading the game. especially if theyre gonna add maps every campaign.[/QUOTE]The game is only 13gb. Compared to a lot of more modern games it's pretty small. I doubt people are gonna be mad about having to download an extra couple of hundred mb every year.