I still think natascha should get a nerf (yes I know...it's [b]him[/b] again... but I would really just be fine if it didn't stop you at long range. (and perhaps spinup time should be back to the original one, both for sasha & natascha)
I am fine with the Shiv and bleed except that when I am bleeding I honestly can't see shit ingame, I don't know if it just me but I just can't see shit when I am bleeding ingame, and I think that should be taken away.
"Natascha is OP, Sandman is fine" -Scout
[QUOTE=GastricTank;23882544]Homewrecker is fine, OP. Being able to remove sappers is one of the best things about the Pyro, besides the many uses of the compression blast.
Which leads to my next argument. Backburner isn't overpowered, using it is just stupid.[/QUOTE]
The Homewrecker IS balanced, but it makes the Spy's job a lot harder. Honestly, a stab and sap is hard enough as is, you have to weave through an entire team of enemies and in the end it can all be ended by a Pyro that burns you to death and smashes your sappers. It's very annoying and it could've been buffed in a different way.
And I said the original Backburner. Like when the Pyro update first shipped. It healed you as you did damage and had back criticals. It was basically unstoppable unless you had a Backburner also, which was ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Kentz;23882576]I still think natascha should get a nerf (yes I know...it's [b]him[/b] again... but I would really just be fine if it didn't stop you at long range. (and perhaps spinup time should be back to the original one, both for sasha & natascha)
I am fine with the Shiv and bleed except that when I am bleeding I honestly can't see shit ingame, I don't know if it just me but I just can't see shit when I am bleeding ingame, and I think that should be taken away.[/QUOTE]
I half agree on Natascha, and I fully agree on bleed.
Natascha should have a range of like, 3.5x a flamethrowers maximum distance where it can actually make enemies slow down.
bleed should have some effect like jarate but downards and is only visible on the bottom third of the screen while the other 2 thirds are normal, then we know we are bleeding so it isn't annoying
Homewrecker is not OP, but it's one of those weapons that I think shouldn't have been implemented in the game to begin with. Pyro's simply shouldn't be able to remove sappers, that idea is so stupid.
other weapons that shouldn't have been implemented;
sandman
targe
every engineer unlock
[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23882613]The Homewrecker IS balanced, but it makes the Spy's job a lot harder. Honestly, a stab and sap is hard enough as is, you have to weave through an entire team of enemies and in the end it can all be ended by a Pyro that burns you to death and smashes your sappers. It's very annoying and it could've been buffed in a different way.
And I said the original Backburner. Like when the Pyro update first shipped. It healed you as you did damage and had back criticals. It was basically unstoppable unless you had a Backburner also, which was ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
First started playing during the pyro free weekend and I was pretty sure BB didn't heal you(I had a BB myself through achivement farming)
inb4 comp players come and defend themselves like they had to with the natascha/wrangler banned topic
[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23882319]Thanks for the boxes guys. :smile:
The point of this thread is to have an intelligent discussion about balance overall. This game isn't perfect with it's balance, but in my honest opinion there isn't anything overpowered, just some underpowered weapons and weapons that could be done better *coughhomewreckercough*.
On the topic of Pyro Airblasts vs Ubers, I say it should stay. I mean, both the Soldier and the Demoman can juggle ubers so I think the Pyro should be allowed to as well, it's fairly easy to counter anyway, just use bullets. The Sandman I think should be allowed to stun ubers again since it's a running stun now. It'll only slow the uber down rather than completely stop it.[/QUOTE]
There is nothing wrong with the game's weapons. The game still has balance. If you are really making a thread trying to ask for buffs and nerfs over the game designers' opinions then you shouldn't be playing.
[QUOTE=NuckChorris;23882657]I half agree on Natascha, and I fully agree on bleed.
Natascha should have a range of like, 3.5x a flamethrowers maximum distance where it can actually make enemies slow down.
bleed should have some effect like jarate but downards and is only visible on the bottom third of the screen while the other 2 thirds are normal, then we know we are bleeding so it isn't annoying[/QUOTE]
yeah I wouldn't hate it half as much if the bleed effect was lowered...
I don't play with DX9 so I wouldn't know how it looks like it there, but on DX8 the bleed effect is just a red screen and is perfectly fine to see with
If I get bleeded I'm pretty much dead anyway so who cares
[QUOTE=Kentz;23882680]sandman [B]Yes a useful weapon that made me a team player before I turned pro-ish should never have been implemented[/B]
targe[B]Half agree, half disagree[/B]
every engineer unlock[B]Wrangler shield is strong isn't it? Lrn2Uber, Whats wrong with Gunslinger and its mini-sentry?, and Frontier Justice? I hate it because of low clip, no other reason though[/B][/QUOTE]
Bold=My statements
didnt the sandvich get the cooldown effect cause people said it was hard to kill the heavy when he eats the sandvich all the time?
[QUOTE=Akasolidus;23882698]There is nothing wrong with the game's weapons. The game still has balance. If you are really making a thread trying to ask for buffs and nerfs over the game designers' opinions then you shouldn't be playing.[/QUOTE]
In your logic, Robin's Rocket Launcher that does 99999 damage and gives him 99999 health and heals him as he kills is balanced because the developers made it.
Not everything in this game is balanced at the moment, it isn't perfect. I don't see anything overpowered right now honestly, but I feel a few things are underpowered or could be tweaked. Someone else may have different opinions than me. This is what this thread is for, debating our opinions to help determine weapon balance for weapons that are debatable. And honestly I think a community like Facepunch would be able to handle a discussion like this somewhat maturely.
Man, the gunslinger would be awesome if it could deploy 2 mini-sentries
[QUOTE=Akasolidus;23882698]There is nothing wrong with the game's weapons. The game [B]still has[/B] balance. If you are really making a thread trying to ask for buffs and nerfs over the game designers' opinions then you shouldn't be playing.[/QUOTE]
Remember when Demoman's stickies OHKO'd Every 125HP class, regardless of splash or not? Yeah, that was pretty balanced
[QUOTE=iRunner;23882920]Man, the gunslinger would be awesome if it could deploy 2 mini-sentries[/QUOTE]
I feel the Gunslinger is fine as it is right now, the Mini-sentries are meant to be support fire, not your main defense. Honestly I feel it's main use is auto-aiming damage onto enemies as they advance upon you, and your objective is to shoot them before they can get close enough to hurt you. If it had 2 mini-sentries it'd need a health nerf.
And you couldn't destroy them either
[QUOTE=iRunner;23882920]Man, the gunslinger would be awesome if it could deploy 2 mini-sentries[/QUOTE]
They would need a tiny damage nerf so 2 at once doesn't do so much damage
Oh, and if you use the Wrangler with max sentry mods, only 1 can shoot, the others just follow the pointer.
This is what happens, whatever is "weak" gets buffed, which then gets OP. Other stuff gets buff to try to "balance" the game. After that, stuff gets nerfed, which leads to it being UP, and the cycle starts over. You guys need to stop complaining and just play and enjoy the damn game.
[QUOTE=NuckChorris;23882790]Bold=My statements[/QUOTE]
The reason I didn't like the engineer unlocks is because they promoted battle engineering which to me ruined the flow of the game + annoying + basically ruined the point of the class (3/4 engineers are still deploying mini sentries instead of defending the points and it will continue to be so)
The chargin' targe was a stupid unlock just like the sandman, sure it is fun and all that but it changed too much of the class purpose (which is to deliver high damage to many foes at once, aka AoE)
[QUOTE=NuckChorris;23883010]They would need a tiny damage nerf so 2 at once doesn't do so much damage
Oh, and if you use the Wrangler with max sentry mods, only 1 can shoot, the others just follow the pointer.[/QUOTE]
Make it a health nerf instead and I wouldn't mind it, mini-sentries have 50% damage of a normal lv1 as is, nerfing the damage would make the 2 minis kinda pointless.
[QUOTE=vanceking1;23883032]This is what happens, whatever is "weak" gets buffed, which then gets OP. Other stuff gets buff to try to "balance" the game. After that, stuff gets nerfed, which leads to it being UP, and the cycle starts over. You guys need to stop complaining and just play and enjoy the damn game.[/QUOTE]
Because the Equalizer is UP right now, right? Or the Tribalman's Shiv? Just 2 examples of nerfs done right.
Edit: Personally, I feel the changes to the Engineer were well warranted. The Engineer was almost underpowered before, every class had something that was anti-engineer so sentries were inefficient for defending.
[QUOTE=Kentz;23883090]The reason I didn't like the engineer unlocks is because they promoted battle engineering which to me ruined the flow of the game + annoying + basically ruined the point of the class (3/4 engineers are still deploying mini sentries instead of defending the points and it will continue to be so)
[B]Battle Engineering is to make the Engineer more useful for offense
The Mini-sentry is SUPPOSED to be annoying, it annoys you, you shoot it, engineer shoots you.
They must be Enginoobs then, let them lose, they will RQ or learn their lesson[/B]
The chargin' targe was a stupid unlock just like the sandman, sure it is fun and all that but it changed too much of the class purpose (which is to deliver high damage to many foes at once, aka AoE)[B]Yeah, the Targe did change the Demomans role entirely, but the Sandman was an excellent unlock, you just can't dodge the damn ball, just like that Engineer repairing his sentry that was blocking the cart on that 24/7 goldrush server I visit alot over 6 months ago.[/B][/QUOTE]
[SP]Why did you click me?[/SP]
Equalizer is fine, not being able to be healed and its speed and damage was nerfed is enough already. At full health it's not as good as the shovel.
Plus people don't get the part of " Become injured for more speed and damage boost." The weaker you are the easier you are to be killed. Which is something the steam forums can't understand.
Any class can take it out with ease if they aren't stupid.
might want to snip that spoiler tag nuck
But battle engineering shouldn't have been implemented into the game at all, because unlocks, while they should give you new styles of playing your class they shouldn't alter the class purpose, the engineer is a defense class - and he should be on defense.
The medic unlocks didn't alter the playing style of the class, nor did the soldier ones et cetera.
And the thing is that, every engineer is a noob. Just not the ones deploying mini sentries and wandering around the map with 34 crits. EVERY engineer is a noob.
And saying that I can't dodge the ball is irrelevant, I was saying that the sandman was a bad unlock that shouldn't have been implemented (not saying it's OP, or that it isn't).
And even if I said that, it's still dumb. Because if the sandman was overpowered and had a 30 sec stun, and then bringing up that "lol u can't dodge it" is not very clever.
i've probably said a lot of flawed things but I am tired and I am going to sleep, night.
[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23882613]The Homewrecker IS balanced, but it makes the Spy's job a lot harder. Honestly, a stab and sap is hard enough as is, you have to weave through an entire team of enemies and in the end it can all be ended by a Pyro that burns you to death and smashes your sappers. It's very annoying and it could've been buffed in a different way.[/QUOTE]
One word: Demoman. He is called the Demoman for a reason.
I don't know what you think, but Demomen are much better at destroying Sentries than Spies. Spy can help set up the destruction of a sentry, meaning that he can sap, and while it is down, another class can come in and destroy it, but he really shouldn't do it alone, unless the Engineer and Pyro is dead.
[QUOTE=Kentz;23883435]But battle engineering shouldn't have been implemented into the game at all, because unlocks, while they should give you new styles of playing your class they shouldn't alter the class purpose, the engineer is a defense class - and he should be on defense.
[B]Thats like saying the Demoman shouldn't be used for offense even though theres nothing wrong with Offensive Demomen[/B]
The medic unlocks didn't alter the playing style of the class, nor did the soldier ones et cetera.
[B]I can't see anything wrong in that statement[/B]
And the thing is that, every engineer is a noob. Just not the ones deploying mini sentries and wandering around the map with 34 crits. EVERY engineer is a noob.
[B]You saying people who know how to use the weapons properly are still noobs?[/B]
And saying that I can't dodge the ball is irrelevant, I was saying that the sandman was a bad unlock that shouldn't have been implemented (not saying it's OP, or that it isn't).
[B]Ignore my statement then :v:[/B]
And even if I said that, it's still dumb. Because if the sandman was overpowered and had a 30 sec stun, and then bringing up that "lol u can't dodge it" is not very clever.
[B]Ignote my statement then :v:[/B]
i've probably said a lot of flawed things but I am tired and I am going to sleep, night.
[B]Goodnight then...[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm tired too :v:
[QUOTE=Lt Kyle;23883415]Equalizer is fine, not being able to be healed and its speed and damage was nerfed is enough already. At full health it's not as good as the shovel.
Plus people don't get the part of " Become injured for more speed and damage boost." The weaker you are the easier you are to be killed. Which is something the steam forums can't understand.
Any class can take it out with ease if they aren't stupid.[/QUOTE]
This is assuming Soldiers are using melee only. Before the damage nerf the Equalizer let you run super fast and 1 shot basically anyone. Before that you have the opportunity to deal and suck up damage. You are basing this off the assumption that the Soldier is definitely going to use his melee.
[QUOTE=Kentz;23883435]But battle engineering shouldn't have been implemented into the game at all, because unlocks, while they should give you new styles of playing your class they shouldn't alter the class purpose, the engineer is a defense class - and he should be on defense.
The medic unlocks didn't alter the playing style of the class, nor did the soldier ones et cetera.
And the thing is that, every engineer is a noob. Just not the ones deploying mini sentries and wandering around the map with 34 crits. EVERY engineer is a noob.
And saying that I can't dodge the ball is irrelevant, I was saying that the sandman was a bad unlock that shouldn't have been implemented (not saying it's OP, or that it isn't).
And even if I said that, it's still dumb. Because if the sandman was overpowered and had a 30 sec stun, and then bringing up that "lol u can't dodge it" is not very clever.
i've probably said a lot of flawed things but I am tired and I am going to sleep, night.[/QUOTE]
The point of the update was to give you options. The Demoman vs Soldier update was pretty good because it gave you choices that alter the purpose of the class.
A vanilla demo is good for offensive bombing and some defense. The Scottish Resistance allows you to be a purely defensive Demo. The Targe + Eyelander completely changed your playstyle turning you into a knight class.
For the Soldier it was less drastic, but the Buff Banner forced you to stay back and stay alive, like a Medic building an uber. You still damaged enemies, sure, but you are playing very differently than usual.
These types of unlocks are good because they vary the gameplay without adding more classes. Quite frankly it'd be rather pointless to add more classes.
The Engineer update was exactly what the Engineer needed, a large change to how his class is played. It's actually fun to play as Engineer now, and a lv3 sentry is more useful than it used to be.
[QUOTE=GastricTank;23883510]One word: Demoman. He is called the Demoman for a reason.
I don't know what you think, but Demomen are much better at destroying Sentries than Spies. Spy can help set up the destruction of a sentry, meaning that he can sap, and while it is down, another class can come in and destroy it, but he really shouldn't do it alone, unless the Engineer and Pyro is dead.[/QUOTE]
Ok, so the Spy should be neutered just because the Demo is better for sentry destruction? That doesn't solve anything at all. It just leaves the Spy weak.
Scottish Resistance is probably somewhat balanced, but what I'd [b]love[/b] would be a slightly faster reload. I mean, it sucks to be able to place 14 stickies, but you only have an 8 sticky clip, with a slow reload. Instead of a bigger clip, which would indeed be OP, a faster reload can allow you to actually handle guarding multiple active traps at a time
[QUOTE=MRTW113;23883884]Scottish Resistance is probably somewhat balanced, but what I'd [b]love[/b] would be a slightly faster reload. I mean, it sucks to be able to place 14 stickies, but you only have an 8 sticky clip, with a slow reload. Instead of a bigger clip, which would indeed be OP, a faster reload can allow you to actually handle guarding multiple active traps at a time[/QUOTE]
I think it should stay as is, it's meant to be a defensive/lockdown type of sticky launcher, the normal reload makes it more beneficial to stay back. Honestly though, the Scottish Resistance should have the annoying explosion under your feet thing removed. I've suicided 10x more with it than I've sticky jumped with it, and sticky jumping with it has almost no control.
[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23883587]Ok, so the Spy should be neutered just because the Demo is better for sentry destruction? That doesn't solve anything at all. It just leaves the Spy weak.[/QUOTE]
I never said that. He is good for assisting others to kill the Sentry. Spy is not weak at all, either. Being able to sneak behind enemy lines, taking out key targets, and having an amazing but strongly underrated primary weapon ( And by this, I mean the Default, not the Ambassador ) does not a weak class make.
Alot of spies underestimate the revolver, and truth be told, I get more points shooting and retreating than I do backstabs. It is the primary weapon for a reason.
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