TF2 Balance Discussion Thread - Games

Here is my list of necessessary (but not overdone) balance changes that I seriously think should be implemented: -Stickies burst in mid-air do half the damage of those stuck to walls/lying on the ground. -Natascha Heavy needs to walk much slower while his gun is revolving, as the gun is meant to slow you down so others can finish you off, it's not great when the Heavy shooting at you is walking FASTER THAN YOU -Bleed damage needs to be changed, either lowering how much the bleed does per second (and perhaps making the bleed last longer), or making it so any kind of positive health change immeadiately negates the effects of the bleed. (Right now, it's a superior version of burn damage.) -Sandman (which aren't really a problem for me) needs to get rid of the double jump once again, and perhaps buffing his health up to an even 100 (is it 90hp by default?) -Making the first second(or two) of Dead Ringer cloak to be near invincible, but after that make spies as vulnerable as a regular cloaked spy. -Perhaps nerfing the shield on the wrangled sentry just a little. -Perhaps making mini-sentries require 110 metal to place (because a sentry 1 second after I destory the first sentry of a retreating engy is quite enough, they are meant for attacking, not running away.) -Maybe nerfing the DH's damage slightly, it's concerning to to think I can't run out of spawn as scout, and not be able to take a hit that isn't a crit, backstab, headshot, bodyshot. -Perhaps a slight buff to the gunboats (I don't use them, but I'm seeing less and less people use them.) -Having moving a building require metal to do so (if it already does, then more metal) I don't like wasting an uber on a sentry if the engy can just move it out of the way and run off, and I don't like it if they do it more than once. -Perhaps a health buff for the dolokahs

Outside of the buffs for the Dalokohs Bar and the Gunboats, maybe the Natascha nerf, I disagree on all of your points. Stickies are fine as is, the air bursting gives them an offensive capability but it isn't to the point where it's anything other than annoying. Bleed damage already does less than fire overall as is, but it has less means of putting it out. The Sandman has already had a health change, it only lowers hp by 15 now meaning 110 hp. The DR is fine as is. The Mini-sentries are fine as is, they're meant to be support guns that you can throw up fast. The DH is fine as is, it does more damage but it's lack of splash damage makes it far less versatile. And moving buildings slows you down to about Heavy speed, it's fine as is.... also you can't uber a sentry >_<

Everything is fine the way it is.

i think pyros need to be unnerfed, he is a offensive, close range class, when facing heavies, heavy will win on most of cases, when facing demos/soldier is a fair match, but i think pyro should win easier when he is on pointblank

[QUOTE=C4rnage;23889042]i think pyros need to be unnerfed, he is a offensive, close range class, when facing heavies, heavy will win on most of cases, when facing demos/soldier is a fair match, but i think pyro should win easier when he is on pointblank[/QUOTE] You realize the changes weren't a total nerf right? The CB is a lot deadlier and the Backburner got a good damage buff. You can do about 225 DPS with the BB at point blank and that's WITHOUT back criticals. If you want a Combat Pyro equip the Backburner. If you want a versatile supportive Pyro equip the Flamer.

[QUOTE=Ender_Wiggin;23886843] FaN is slightly UP [/QUOTE] FaN is actually slighly OP. It does more damage than scattergun, has a knockback effect and requires less aiming, and the reload time isn't that long either.

[QUOTE=Ond kaja;23895502]FaN is actually slighly OP. It does more damage than scattergun, has a knockback effect and requires less aiming, and the reload time isn't that long either.[/QUOTE] This is 110% correct

FaN needs something to make it useful. Backburner needs to be scrapped and replaced with something useful. The sword 'n' board needs something to make it anything more than a novelty. Natasha needs to burn in a fire. I also wish the huntsman would be ripped to shreds, but apparently no-one else seems to agree with me, so, you know...

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;23896207]FaN needs something to make it useful. Backburner needs to be scrapped and replaced with something useful. The sword 'n' board needs something to make it anything more than a novelty. Natasha needs to burn in a fire. I also wish the huntsman would be ripped to shreds, but apparently no-one else seems to agree with me, so, you know...[/QUOTE] I agree with the backburner part. The airblast, in my opinion, is the pyro's saving grace when it comes to usefulness. Without it, he just spurts out fire. With it, he can deflect any projectile, clear cap points, bounce enemies up in the air, etc.

[QUOTE=Haiku;23888834] -Perhaps making mini-sentries require 110 metal to place (because a sentry 1 second after I destory the first sentry of a retreating engy is quite enough, they are meant for attacking, not running away.)[B] They would be useless then.[/B] -Having moving a building require metal to do so (if it already does, then more metal) I don't like wasting an uber on a sentry if the engy can just move it out of the way and run off, and I don't like it if they do it more than once. [B]Incredibly dumb idea[/B] [/QUOTE] Just a question: are you from SPUF?

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23884889] Honestly the Spy is the hardest class in the game to play as. He doesn't need to be much harder. The Homewrecker could have some other advantage completely unrelated to sapper removal.[/QUOTE] A spy that faces a homewrecker pyro and an engineer is just out of luck. That setup is perfectly organized. The spy is built on mistakes and misorganization of the other team... [quote=Ubercharged.net]The Spy capitalizes on his enemy’s mistakes to be effective. However, a well-organized competitive team makes few mistakes, so Spy makes for a very, very difficult playing experience.[/quote]

[QUOTE=wari65;23896892]The spy is built on mistakes and misorganization of the other team...[/QUOTE] Yeah, a spy's effectiveness lowers the more skilled and aware the other team are. But to be fair, if a pyro and engie are camping in a spot, then consider the pyro 1 player out of combat. The spy should tell his team, switch classes or help out at the front lines more. Unless you Amby the engie and then the pyro from far away, you aren't getting anywhere near their base

[QUOTE=wari65;23896892]A spy that faces a homewrecker pyro and an engineer is just out of luck. That setup is perfectly organized. The spy is built on mistakes and misorganization of the other team...[/QUOTE] If the Pyro is spending time around the Engineer with the homewrecker, the Spy can at least enjoy that the Pyro is leaving all of his other teammates vulnerable to the Spy. I fucking hate the jackass that came up with the the retarded idea of giving the homewrecker stats that encourage the Pyro to be the Engineer's pet.

I like the Homewrecker because I love being support, but I hate being a "pet" for Engineers.

[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;23887389]Eyelander/the axe and the Charging Targe are pissing me off. They're insanely OP.[/QUOTE] I agree.

[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;23887389]Eyelander/the axe and the Charging Targe are pissing me off. They're insanely OP.[/QUOTE] You have to remember that the demoman has only one shot at charging you, if he misses or you move around it's a long time before he can try and charge again.

[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;23887389]Eyelander/the axe and the Charging Targe are pissing me off. They're insanely OP.[/QUOTE] Get Gunboats+Rocket jump away I honestly don't know why people think the Gunboats are UP or OP. They're a nice tradeaway; you end up relying even more on the RL than you did before, and can rocket jump away from situations easier. At least it protects me. The Buff Banner I find UP for either you die before/right when you get the banner ready, and it's rather hard(even on 5CP maps) to get a lot of people in it. At least give it a really weak melee attack with it; then I could see equipping it.

[QUOTE=Blueridge;23901609]Get Gunboats+Rocket jump away I honestly don't know why people think the Gunboats are UP or OP. They're a nice tradeaway; you end up relying even more on the RL than you did before, and can rocket jump away from situations easier. At least it protects me. The Buff Banner I find UP for either you die before/right when you get the banner ready, and it's rather hard(even on 5CP maps) to get a lot of people in it. At least give it a really weak melee attack with it; then I could see equipping it.[/QUOTE] I can't count the time I shoot someone up in he air with my last rocket, press 2 and stare at my bugle. I don't even know why it has it's own slot. Couldn't it be like a charge meter, and pressing m2 when its full brings it out?

[QUOTE=Simski;23899151]If the Pyro is spending time around the Engineer with the homewrecker, the Spy can at least enjoy that the Pyro is leaving all of his other teammates vulnerable to the Spy. I fucking hate the jackass that came up with the the retarded idea of giving the homewrecker stats that encourage the Pyro to be the Engineer's pet.[/QUOTE] I smell a career spy. But anyway, you have to admit, the Homewrecker was horribly situational, and somewhat underpowered, when it didn't remove sappers. Besides, it provokes Pyros into being team players instead of mindless idiots.

[QUOTE=latin_geek;23901201]You have to remember that the demoman has only one shot at charging you, if he misses or you move around it's a long time before he can try and charge again.[/QUOTE] Or he turns at the end of the charge, and the extra long melee length takes advantage of the hitbox lag and kills you easily.

[QUOTE=NOD Engineer;23896763]Just a question: are you from SPUF?[/QUOTE] I do post over there, but I'm more of a forum-watcher, rather than contributor, as seen by my Join-date/Post-Count ratio. Back to the topic: I guess some of my balance changes were a bit harsh, as some of them are purely coincidental or rare. But I still support the balance changes to airbursted stickies, dalokahs, Dead ringer, Natascha changes. And when I said 'wasting an uber on a sentry' I meant that ubering a blu demo to take out the sentry on top of red's battlements, then to have the engy pack it up and move pack to spawn until the uber wears off. And when I said changing the mini-sentry requirements, I meant that the current ability to place a mini-sentry right after the first died is a little overpowered. Examples: cp_well, defending the trainyard. I'm a Red Demo with a (fully charged) Medic, and I run around and find an Blu Engy, who quickly drops a mini-sentry and runs off. A few more Blu players come over to defeat us. My medic pops-uber (before he is finished off by the enemy team), we use said uber to defeat the mini-sentry, as well as the attacking team (minus the engineer because he ran off). As we have removed the enemy team, as well as the sentry, this is enough indication to move up. Suddenly, WITHOUT HAVING TO GO AND FIND MORE METAL, the Blu Engy lays down another mini-sentry (A SENTRY MEANT FOR OFFENCE, NOT DEFENCE) and we are over come. And that's my gripe. The Sentry that is meant for defence requires 130 metal, which meants if the engineer wants to construct any more buildings, he must fins more metal, which are usually in places that are awful for sentry placement. This predicament requires the engy to decide whether to construct a sentry or dispenser first, the former for firepower and the latter for the promise of more metal. The mini-sentry is like constructing a team-mate who is immobile, deadly accurate, and renewable.

[QUOTE=Lt Kyle;23904247]Or he turns at the end of the charge, and the extra long melee length takes advantage of the hitbox lag and kills you easily.[/QUOTE] That's more of a broken game than balance issues.

[QUOTE=GastricTank;23903338]I smell a career spy. But anyway, you have to admit, the Homewrecker was horribly situational, and somewhat underpowered, when it didn't remove sappers. Besides, it provokes Pyros into being team players instead of mindless idiots.[/QUOTE] But couldn't it do something else? Like adding stun, or a knockback, or even changing the stats to do more damage against players? There's a lot of different approaches they could've taken with the weapon. [QUOTE=Haiku;23905290]I do post over there, but I'm more of a forum-watcher, rather than contributor, as seen by my Join-date/Post-Count ratio. Back to the topic: I guess some of my balance changes were a bit harsh, as some of them are purely coincidental or rare. But I still support the balance changes to airbursted stickies, dalokahs, Dead ringer, Natascha changes. And when I said 'wasting an uber on a sentry' I meant that ubering a blu demo to take out the sentry on top of red's battlements, then to have the engy pack it up and move pack to spawn until the uber wears off. And when I said changing the mini-sentry requirements, I meant that the current ability to place a mini-sentry right after the first died is a little overpowered. Examples: cp_well, defending the trainyard. I'm a Red Demo with a (fully charged) Medic, and I run around and find an Blu Engy, who quickly drops a mini-sentry and runs off. A few more Blu players come over to defeat us. My medic pops-uber (before he is finished off by the enemy team), we use said uber to defeat the mini-sentry, as well as the attacking team (minus the engineer because he ran off). As we have removed the enemy team, as well as the sentry, this is enough indication to move up. Suddenly, WITHOUT HAVING TO GO AND FIND MORE METAL, the Blu Engy lays down another mini-sentry (A SENTRY MEANT FOR OFFENCE, NOT DEFENCE) and we are over come. And that's my gripe. The Sentry that is meant for defence requires 130 metal, which meants if the engineer wants to construct any more buildings, he must fins more metal, which are usually in places that are awful for sentry placement. This predicament requires the engy to decide whether to construct a sentry or dispenser first, the former for firepower and the latter for the promise of more metal. The mini-sentry is like constructing a team-mate who is immobile, deadly accurate, and renewable.[/QUOTE] If they changed it to fit your gripes it'd be USELESS. It already does half damage and it's meant to fast deploy. It's main purpose is offense but it can also be used for a last minute defense. What next, make the Scottish Resistance only have 4 stickies per clip just because I killed someone with it on offense?

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23906271]But couldn't it do something else? Like adding stun, or a knockback, or even changing the stats to do more damage against players? There's a lot of different approaches they could've taken with the weapon.[/QUOTE] Airblasting rockets, nades and ubers, shooting stickies with shotgun are already attributes that make pyro a great engie buddy. Why not a melee weapons that helps too. Seriously, if you meet that situation, change classes. You wouldnt try to take down Natasha heavies down head on as a scout; same here

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23906271]But couldn't it do something else? Like adding stun, or a knockback, or even changing the stats to do more damage against players? There's a lot of different approaches they could've taken with the weapon.[/QUOTE] No. It couldn't. What you are saying is: "I think that counters should no longer be allowed to counter." Besides, the Homewrecker is a sledgehammer. Sledgehammers are used to destroy objects, hence, it destroys buildings and sappers.

[QUOTE=latin_geek;23905409]That's more of a broken game than balance issues.[/QUOTE] It's always going to be there anyway. :v: Once your caught in it the most you can do is pray and hope a teammate saves you.

[QUOTE=MRTW113;23906836]Airblasting rockets, nades and ubers, shooting stickies with shotgun are already attributes that make pyro a great engie buddy. Why not a melee weapons that helps too. Seriously, if you meet that situation, change classes. You wouldnt try to take down Natasha heavies down head on as a scout; same here[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=GastricTank;23907168]No. It couldn't. What you are saying is: "I think that counters should no longer be allowed to counter." Besides, the Homewrecker is a sledgehammer. Sledgehammers are used to destroy objects, hence, it destroys buildings and sappers.[/QUOTE] The Homewrecker being added to the Pyro is like adding the Razorback to the Pyro. It's making a counter even more of a counter. You might as well give the Heavy a helmet that makes him immune to baseballs and bats along with his Natascha.

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23907921]is like adding the Razorback to the Pyro. You might as well give the Heavy a helmet that makes him immune to baseballs and bats along with his Natascha.[/QUOTE] The razorback doesn't encourage teamwork, for one. Also, the pyro isn't getting any direct benefit from killing sappers and doesn't get any stat change. Using homewrecker makes him lost his axtinguisher, the only way a pyro can legitimately go up against a heavy class. If you're still spy after seeing a pyro camping an engie's base, just use your gun instead

That still doesn't degrade my point, 1 Pyro with a Homewrecker can basically shut out any Spywork that isn't on the front lines, which is a bit pointless. No other counter shuts out the countered class like with Spy vs Homewrecker Pyro. The class is already the hardest to play and now there's a hard counter for it. My gripe isn't against the Homewrecker's balance but about how it's absolutely ridiculous to have a full-on counter against the Spy class. You deploy a Natascha Heavy it only makes things a bit harder for the Scout, he can still get the drop on the Heavy if he plays his movements right, and you only have trouble if you encounter the Natascha Heavy. As a Spy you're going behind lines so you are pretty much forced to weave past the Pyro for one, and even if you do, he can just come out of nowhere and smash your sappers. I mean really, it wasn't a big issue before with the Pyro vs the Spy but now it's just full-on countering the Spy. Spies have always relied on your opponents mistakes. Even an amazing Spy could still get progress if he worked hard, though not as much as he would if the enemies were slipping up all the time. Now, a Homewrecker Pyro who isn't fucking up every 10 seconds can completely shut you out. He runs at the same speed as you, he can outshoot you with his shotgun, he can reveal your cloak, and he can remove your sappers. There's no point in the Spy if even 1 Homewrecker Pyro is deployed.

[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;23876782]All the weapons are balanced, only one weapon needs to be reworked is the razorback, its completly useless.[/QUOTE] And dalokoh.