TF2 Balance Discussion Thread - Games

Less Knockback for FaN and less time on fire on Pyro weapons. [editline]08:37AM[/editline] 100+ Hp with Dalokhos bar

Dalokhos bar buff/nerf +100 maximum HP when used for 30 seconds -Cannot be overhealed when used Y/N?

[QUOTE=NuckChorris;23914247]Dalokhos bar buff/nerf +100 maximum HP when used for 30 seconds -Cannot be overhealed Y/N?[/QUOTE] The overhealing part makes me no want to choose it, it's already going up against an instant full heal and a high damage dealing gun. This reminds me, no one commented on my suggestion for the Dalokohs in the OP. People just gave me boxes. :p

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23889083]You realize the changes weren't a total nerf right? The CB is a lot deadlier and the Backburner got a good damage buff. You can do about 225 DPS with the BB at point blank and that's WITHOUT back criticals. If you want a Combat Pyro equip the Backburner. If you want a versatile supportive Pyro equip the Flamer.[/QUOTE] after all changes flame still nerfed, backburner cant compete with airblast, backburner is slight usefull when opposite team has no demo/soldier... with backburner u just eat everything they shoot at you. with airblast u have higher chances against soldiers/demos, u can throw back heavies when u suddenly face them, the survivability of pyro with airblast is way higher than with backburner... pyro has limited range, flare guns doesnt really help at all, so because of that i think pyros should exceed in close combat... i hadnt use backburner for more than few minutes, since they removed the hp bonus...

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23915620]The overhealing part makes me no want to choose it[/QUOTE] Sorry, I forgot to add "when used", so you CAN be overhealed, just not when using it.

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23912633]That still doesn't degrade my point, 1 Pyro with a Homewrecker can basically shut out any Spywork that isn't on the front lines, which is a bit pointless. No other counter shuts out the countered class like with Spy vs Homewrecker Pyro. The class is already the hardest to play and now there's a hard counter for it. My gripe isn't against the Homewrecker's balance but about how it's absolutely ridiculous to have a full-on counter against the Spy class. You deploy a Natascha Heavy it only makes things a bit harder for the Scout, he can still get the drop on the Heavy if he plays his movements right, and you only have trouble if you encounter the Natascha Heavy. As a Spy you're going behind lines so you are pretty much forced to weave past the Pyro for one, and even if you do, he can just come out of nowhere and smash your sappers. I mean really, it wasn't a big issue before with the Pyro vs the Spy but now it's just full-on countering the Spy. Spies have always relied on your opponents mistakes. Even an amazing Spy could still get progress if he worked hard, though not as much as he would if the enemies were slipping up all the time. Now, a Homewrecker Pyro who isn't fucking up every 10 seconds can completely shut you out. He runs at the same speed as you, he can outshoot you with his shotgun, he can reveal your cloak, and he can remove your sappers. There's no point in the Spy if even 1 Homewrecker Pyro is deployed.[/QUOTE] Tell your teammates to kill the pyro, that's all you can hope for.

[QUOTE=NuckChorris;23917390]Sorry, I forgot to add "when used", so you CAN be overhealed, just not when using it.[/QUOTE] That's what I mean. It's still a we bit of a turn-off from the other items you have at your disposal.

The backburner needs its 15% damage boost taken out. It was fine before.

[QUOTE=GamerKiwi;23926260]The backburner needs its 15% damage boost taken out. It was fine before.[/QUOTE] It does 6% more than the original Flamethrower before the changes, the +15% is based on the new flamethrower damage.

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23912633]That still doesn't degrade my point, 1 Pyro with a Homewrecker can basically shut out any Spywork that isn't on the front lines, which is a bit pointless. No other counter shuts out the countered class like with Spy vs Homewrecker Pyro. The class is already the hardest to play and now there's a hard counter for it. My gripe isn't against the Homewrecker's balance but about how it's absolutely ridiculous to have a full-on counter against the Spy class. You deploy a Natascha Heavy it only makes things a bit harder for the Scout, he can still get the drop on the Heavy if he plays his movements right, and you only have trouble if you encounter the Natascha Heavy. As a Spy you're going behind lines so you are pretty much forced to weave past the Pyro for one, and even if you do, he can just come out of nowhere and smash your sappers. I mean really, it wasn't a big issue before with the Pyro vs the Spy but now it's just full-on countering the Spy. Spies have always relied on your opponents mistakes. Even an amazing Spy could still get progress if he worked hard, though not as much as he would if the enemies were slipping up all the time. Now, a Homewrecker Pyro who isn't fucking up every 10 seconds can completely shut you out. He runs at the same speed as you, he can outshoot you with his shotgun, he can reveal your cloak, and he can remove your sappers. There's no point in the Spy if even 1 Homewrecker Pyro is deployed.[/QUOTE] TEAM Fortress 2, meaning: Do what will help your team. Instead of QQ'ing as a Spy about how you can't sap a building, do something about it, help your team. It is as simple as that. Stop using the excuse: "But that isn't fair, what if I don't want to switch, Pyros are too much of a counter against Spies!" The answer: Pyro has always been like that, even before he could remove sappers. He just got a weapon to actually do his job more proficiently. So be a team player and go Medic or something, destroy the Engineer's crap, kill the Pyro, ( if he is proficient with the Compression Blast, you are going to need more help ) and win. End of story.

[QUOTE=GastricTank;23926955]TEAM Fortress 2, meaning: Do what will help your team. Instead of QQ'ing as a Spy about how you can't sap a building, do something about it, help your team. It is as simple as that. Stop using the excuse: "But that isn't fair, what if I don't want to switch, Pyros are too much of a counter against Spies!" The answer: Pyro has always been like that, even before he could remove sappers. He just got a weapon to actually do his job more proficiently. So be a team player and go Medic or something, destroy the Engineer's crap, kill the Pyro, ( if he is proficient with the Compression Blast, you are going to need more help ) and win. End of story.[/QUOTE] I rated you dumb because I disagree with you

[QUOTE=GastricTank;23926955]TEAM Fortress 2, meaning: Do what will help your team. Instead of QQ'ing as a Spy about how you can't sap a building, do something about it, help your team. It is as simple as that. Stop using the excuse: "But that isn't fair, what if I don't want to switch, Pyros are too much of a counter against Spies!" The answer: Pyro has always been like that, even before he could remove sappers. He just got a weapon to actually do his job more proficiently. So be a team player and go Medic or something, destroy the Engineer's crap, kill the Pyro, ( if he is proficient with the Compression Blast, you are going to need more help ) and win. End of story.[/QUOTE] Switching classes shouldn't be the solution to everything. If we kept balancing with that logic, there'd only be a few classes that are used and the rest would be useless.

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23912633]The class is already the hardest to play and now there's a hard counter for it. My gripe isn't against the Homewrecker's balance but about how it's absolutely ridiculous to have a full-on counter against the Spy class. Spies have always relied on your opponents mistakes. Even an amazing Spy could still get progress if he worked hard, though not as much as he would if the enemies were slipping up all the time. Now, a Homewrecker Pyro who isn't fucking up every 10 seconds can completely shut you out. He runs at the same speed as you, he can outshoot you with his shotgun, he can reveal your cloak, and he can remove your sappers. There's no point in the Spy if even 1 Homewrecker Pyro is deployed.[/QUOTE] First off, killing enemy bases far from the front lines doesn't help your team advance; the engie will just rebuild his base or go pyro (ironically). Camping enemy bases for kills rarely helps either because you are doing nothing while the enemy is respawning, and just makes them more aware of you. A team is aided most by spies taking out obstacles that are fighting them, not when the spies are killing noncombatants on the other side of the map, save medics. Second, an enemy pyro that isn't on the front lines or actively flanking is doing little to affect your team besides spies. If you weren't spy, he'd be wasting his time, which is good for your team. Homewrecker pyro is only a counter if an engie's buildings are there; it does nothing for 1v1 combat that makes pyro such a spy counter. It won't heal the buildings, so even if the pyro barely saved a sapped sentry you could just shoot it. It's a situational weapon and a pyro will probably never have an offensive use for it. It's such a counter to the spy because there is no other good use for it, basically. And the pyro is making himself useless as a combat/flanking class in general if he's just hanging out with the engies [QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23927392]Switching classes shouldn't be the solution to everything.[/QUOTE] Say that to the Heavy. You know, people switch to pyro after getting stabbed, people switch to spy or sniper after getting headshot. [QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23927392]Switching classes shouldn't be the solution to everything. If we kept balancing with that logic, there'd only be a few classes that are used and the rest would be useless.[/QUOTE] Tempting to mention something about competitive TF2.

[QUOTE=MRTW113;23927492]First off, killing enemy bases far from the front lines doesn't help your team advance; the engie will just rebuild his base or go pyro (ironically). Camping enemy bases for kills rarely helps either because you are doing nothing while the enemy is respawning, and just makes them more aware of you. A team is aided most by spies taking out obstacles that are fighting them, not when the spies are killing noncombatants on the other side of the map, save medics. Second, an enemy pyro that isn't on the front lines or actively flanking is doing little to affect your team besides spies. If you weren't spy, he'd be wasting his time. Homewrecker pyro is only a counter if an engie's buildings are there; it does nothing for 1v1 combat that makes pyro such a spy counter. It won't heal the buildings, so even if the pyro barely saved a sapped sentry you could just shoot it. It's a situational weapon and a pyro will probably never have an offensive use for it. It's such a counter to the spy because there is no other good use for it, basically. And the pyro is making himself useless as a combat/flanking class in general if he's just hanging out with the engies[/QUOTE] And I still digress, even if it's balanced it shuts out an entire class from play. Imagine if more weapons like this were added. A suit of body armor for the Demoman that makes him immune to sentry fire but replaces his grenade launcher, a helmet for the Heavy that stops baseballs from the Scout, ect. This game would turn from an FPS into Rock-Paper-Scissors really fast.

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23927549]This game would turn from an FPS into Rock-Paper-Scissors really fast.[/QUOTE] It is already, at least in pubs. Someone gets dominated by heavy. He goes sniper. The heavy gets dominated and goes spy. The sniper gets dominated and goes pyro. Spy gets dominated and goes Heavy. Circle of life, and does nothing to help the team [quote]And I still digress, even if it's balanced it shuts out an entire class from play. Imagine if more weapons like this were added. A suit of body armor for the Demoman that makes him immune to sentry fire but replaces his grenade launcher, a helmet for the Heavy that stops baseballs from the Scout, ect.[/quote] The pyro gets no immunity from damage or anything from this. He directly helps out another team member with this. Though I admit people who quickswitch to Homewrecker pyro the moment they see a sapped teleporter is a bit annoying.

[QUOTE=MRTW113;23927644]It is already, at least in pubs. Someone gets dominated by heavy. He goes sniper. The heavy gets dominated and goes spy. The sniper gets dominated and goes pyro. Spy gets dominated and goes Heavy. Circle of life, and does nothing to help the team The pyro gets no immunity from damage or anything from this. He directly helps out another team member with this. Though I admit people who quickswitch to Homewrecker pyro the moment they see a sapped teleporter is a bit annoying.[/QUOTE] At least with being dominated by a Heavy you can still do efficiently with the class you were playing until you meet the Heavy, and even then you have a chance to kill him, a smaller chance but a chance. With Pyro vs Spy, it's not that way. I switch classes often but it shouldn't HAVE to be that way.

Well, it's Valve and their idea of balance :rant: [sp]Also, thanks for civil conversation.[/sp]

Yea, I'm actually surprised how there hasn't been any flame outside of the "No changes, Valve did everything 500% right, it's balanced." and the boxes.

I think the razorback should have an effect where whenever a spy gets too close to a sniper using it, it sets off an electrical charge that temporarily de-cloaks them and disables their disguise, then it might actually be slightly useful

I find the Razorback useful if used right, not team friendly at all but useful. But your change would make it useable in other environments.

I only find the razorback usefull when you snipe in the open on a mic spam server, eitherway it's easy to hear spies uncloack

The pain train should grant a speed boost when carrying the flag or something. It's completely worthless on CTF maps.

[QUOTE=Insane516;23927136]I rated you dumb because I disagree with you[/QUOTE] Now that is just rude. I'm rating you dumb because there is a nifty "disagree" button right there. And instead of actually making a good counterargument, all you do is call me dumb in hope that others bandwagon and rate me dumb. Sad. I see nothing wrong with what I said. Pyro = counter to the Spy. If you can't beat him, your best chance is just to change classes.

[QUOTE=johnlmonkey;23932763]I think the razorback should have an effect where whenever a spy gets too close to a sniper using it, it sets off an electrical charge that temporarily de-cloaks them and disables their disguise, then it might actually be slightly useful[/QUOTE] That's so overpowered.

[QUOTE=Garlickeh;23938241]That's so overpowered.[/QUOTE] How about... reduces #% taken from a 90 degree angle from the back, until it is destroyed, via backstab. [IMG]http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz301/GastricTank/diagram.png[/IMG]

But the backstab range is 180 degrees and limiting it to just 90 degrees wouldn't be overly helpful.

Ok then, damage reduction from at a 180 degree angle. It would have to be less damage reduced than if at a 90 degree angle, for balance issues.

I'm thinking somewhere around 10-20% since the Pain Train has a 10% damage taken boost.

I say 25%, because the Razorback can be broken.

[QUOTE=GastricTank;23939117]I say 25%, because the Razorback can be broken.[/QUOTE] Only by a knife though. But you make a point. I wouldn't go past 20% though.