MvM Discussion Megathread: Do Androids Complain of Overpowered Upgrades?
1,944 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Hell-met;43701349]could valve please fuck-off with all those sandman scouts?
minor league, major league, hyper league, jumping, giant major league, giant armored, giant jumping
stuns are shit. get it through your skull.
give them a sun-stick with +300% damage instead[/QUOTE]
I'd actually love a lot more weapon variation and fuckery
imagine supernova-on-a-stick scouts running around with what are basically flaming cabers that don't outright murder you
[QUOTE=Hell-met;43701349]could valve please fuck-off with all those sandman scouts?
minor league, major league, hyper league, jumping, giant major league, giant armored, giant jumping
stuns are shit. get it through your skull.
give them a sun-stick with +300% damage instead[/QUOTE]
You know that moment, when you had the chance to save the bomb. Amid all the chaos and bloodshed?
But then you got stunned by a sandman scout from across the map, and the bomb carrier drops the bomb.
[I]hey guys you know what would add a challenge to mvm? lets take a completely broken weapon and slap it onto an already annoying class
im sure players will be happy about that
- valve 2013[/I]
[QUOTE=Punchy;43706691]it's fine as it is. although since mercs are always red in mvm you might aswell make the electricity red/orange.[/QUOTE]
But the disintegrated robots flicker blue.
I hate it when everytime someone joins the game, your statistic in the scoreboard might be wiped out. (or definitely when you start recording a demo)
I just like to show off a lot.
[QUOTE=Drury;43713068]But the disintegrated robots flicker blue.[/QUOTE]
the particle color on energy kills appear the same as the team color of the kill owner
if you're red and zap a blue, its going to have red particles
that is a messy fuckup imo
[QUOTE=ThePro1234;43713111]I hate it when everytime someone joins the game, your statistic in the scoreboard might be wiped out. (or definitely when you start recording a demo)
I just like to show off a lot.[/QUOTE]
I like having done 0 damage paired with my 512 score
Also, Valve kinda screw up everyone in NA by switching back most of Mann Up server back to the original CP/KOTH/whatever gamemodes to fill up the Quickplay server pool.
That explains a lot on why I always get to play in EU servers despite being overwhelmed by 5 other NA players in the party :v:
[t]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/3278920192989538470/A20B987B66D26BF0E502161695B6E860D18EC368/[/t]
Does anyone know what "Bad challenge" error actually means?
Got it a few times when matchmaking in Mann Up mode before.
[QUOTE=ThePro1234;43718953]Does anyone know what "Bad challenge" error actually means?
Got it a few times when matchmaking in Mann Up mode before.[/QUOTE]
I usually take it as meaning that the team in that server is crap, so I just thank it.
Just crashed 2 times in a row in Empire.
No, not during Wave 5, but during Wave 2.
Everytime when the Spies spawn while only 2 Giant Heater Heavies are left in the wave, we instantly crashed.
Positive that it was not because of Medic either, we did it with and without the Medic and the same problem still occurs.
They really need to start fixing this crashing shit related to spy bots spawning.
reviving people crashes them sometimes too
I think they should add a matchmaking penalty similar to abandoning for when you get kicked too many times.
Happens so often you see some douche go machete sniper, ready up and ask for a kick because he doesn't like something and doesn't even attempt to play a wave.
Abandoning once doesn't give you any penalty but considering people ask for kicks all the time they probably leave a lot.
[thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/spyspawn.jpg[/thumb]
spybots sometimes spawn inside gates so that could be what crashes some games
[QUOTE=Hell-met;43738969][thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/spyspawn.jpg[/thumb]
spybots sometimes spawn inside gates so that could be what crashes some games[/QUOTE]
I've seen them run in a lot of times when the gate was being capped, they get stuck if the gate closes and don't get out until it's capped. Never crashed because of that though. Are these crashes you speak of recent because tf2's been very stable for me for months now.
theres something in the manhattan logic crashing people on wave5
surprised youve never heard about it
I wonder if somebody tried to beat an MvM mission without upgrades and canteens.
It wouldn't be that difficult on normal. I've beaten decoy normal with only two people, a three people without upgrades >>> one person with.
Has anyone ever found themselves being ridiculously lucky with drops? First time I beat Steel Trap I got a gold scattergun, then first time beating Oil Spill I got a blood flamethrower.
Then earlier today I find out my brother won his first Steel Trap and got a gold sniper rifle.
It feels kinda hollow since I'm getting rare drops for the easiest missions in Mann Up, with my completion of Gear Grinder getting me a carbanado weapon I already traded for. I don't get TF2 sometimes.
[QUOTE=MrLagineer;43743133]Has anyone ever found themselves being ridiculously lucky with drops? First time I beat Steel Trap I got a gold scattergun, then first time beating Oil Spill I got a blood flamethrower.
Then earlier today I find out my brother won his first Steel Trap and got a gold sniper rifle.
It feels kinda hollow since I'm getting rare drops for the easiest missions in Mann Up, with my completion of Gear Grinder getting me a carbanado weapon I already traded for. I don't get TF2 sometimes.[/QUOTE]
My first 6 expert drops were sniper rifles. 1 diamond and 5 carbonados. I also remember getting a blood sniper rifle. Guess you can call that lucky
I had a guy quit mid-wave just because we wouldn't kick the 1 tour and 0 tour guys on our team. There was only 2 of them, and he tried votekicking them right as the game started because of that reason. I hope he gets sent to an unfathomable realm of low-priority matchmaking.
This might seem a bit odd, but I just thought that I'd ask around to see something.
Basically, when it comes to Mann Up mode, I've only played one of the Mecha Engine Missions, and I wanted to know if anyone might have any suggestions on some of the Boot Camp missions that could probably be good to try before I get to that.
I mainly just ask because I'm usually not all that sure on just what upgrades to buy when it comes to MvM, and because I usually feel like I'd probably mess up something as a result if I tried a Mann Up mission.
[QUOTE=Vinylstep;43745266]This might seem a bit odd, but I just thought that I'd ask around to see something.
Basically, when it comes to Mann Up mode, I've only played one of the Mecha Engine Missions, and I wanted to know if anyone might have any suggestions on some of the Boot Camp missions that could probably be good to try before I get to that.
I mainly just ask because I'm usually not all that sure on just what upgrades to buy when it comes to MvM, and because I usually feel like I'd probably mess up something as a result if I tried a Mann Up mission.[/QUOTE]
As a general rule of thumb, resistances before weapons, but only if they're appropriate for the wave. eg, don't buy crit resistance on a wave with no crit bots.
[QUOTE=Widow Engie;43745512]As a general rule of thumb, resistances before weapons, but only if they're appropriate for the wave. eg, don't buy crit resistance on a wave with no crit bots.[/QUOTE]
honestly, resistance depends on class. if you're a heavier class, then i focus on my weapons and only get 1 resistance or so resist a wave, with exception to crit resist which i usually max out no matter what class.
unless you're scout, which you want to max resist and milk before anything
or med so getting resist and medi
you see my point
[QUOTE=Widow Engie;43745512]As a general rule of thumb, resistances before weapons, but only if they're appropriate for the wave. eg, don't buy crit resistance on a wave with no crit bots.[/QUOTE]
I was aware of that (and I appreciate the reminder), though my main problem is more with some of the class specific upgrades.
When in MvM I usually just play Engi, and I enjoy playing the class and do well when I play Engineer, but sometimes it's nice to try and play another class.
That gets to be a bit difficult when you're not entirely sure on how to upgrade the class, though.
[QUOTE=Vinylstep;43745585]I was aware of that (and I appreciate the reminder), though my main problem is more with some of the class specific upgrades.
When in MvM I usually just play Engi, and I enjoy playing the class and do well when I play Engineer, but sometimes it's nice to try and play another class.
That gets to be a bit difficult when you're not entirely sure on how to upgrade the class, though.[/QUOTE]
[B]Scout:[/B] Mad Milk upgrade and speed upgrade. Not necessary to buy all the 4 points on reacharge time upgrade, so just give priority to these: speed upgrade first (you won't need the milk that bad on the first wave), then slow down on milk, maybe with one recharge time upgrade. For the primary, your focus isn't damage, so go with FaN for mobility and pushing bots or Soda Popper for pure mobility.
[B]Soldier:[/B] Banner upgrades are unecessary, so don't waste your money on them, unless you have extra money left at the later waves. Give priority to: reload speed, at least one rocket specialist upgrade, damage and resistances, along with speed upgrades (actually, speed upgrades are priority for almost every class).
[B]Demoman:[/B] Focus on your sticky launcher. Firing speed first. Reload speed is also useful, but I think that 2 points on it is all you're ever going to need. Go for damage, speed, resistance and maaaybe health on kill. Get a good melee for self-defense against Spies.
[B]Heavy: [/B]Speed upgrades, along with projectile deflection, bullet penetration, firing speed and, if you want to, buy rage. Ammo upgrades are also useful. I once managed to make a immortal heavy on expert with just resistances, health regen and health on kill, and had enough money to upgrade my gun to a good state, without ever wasting money on canteens. Just make sure you don't waste money on your secondary or melee.
[B]Medic:[/B] Buy shield first, then upgrade your healing mastery (really useful for ressurecting everyone all the time), resistances, speed and canteen sharing. If you're using the Quick-fix, I don't really recommend you to buy overheal mastery, because the übercharge will take longer to charge. If you aren't using it, it's fine to get some points on it, too.
I can't give any tips on Pyro, Engineer, Sniper or Spy, sorry. :/
[QUOTE=Omninerd;43746423]
[I]*Tips for Scout, Soldier, Demo, Heavy and Medic*[/I]
I can't give any tips on Pyro, Engineer, Sniper or Spy, sorry. :/[/QUOTE]
The help is greatly appreciated, and considering that I usually know what to do as Engi and probably won't be playing much of Pyro, Sniper or Spy, this will likely be quite useful.
I hope by "speed upgrades" you don't mean movement speed.
since only scout will ever need that.
Here's some tips I've learned over my 40 or so combined tours. Feel free to point out if I advise something you disagree with. I play, in order of most frequent to least, Demo, Engy, Medic, Scout, Heavy, Soldier, Pyro, Sniper, then Spy. Since Omninerd had some (mostly) useful tips for most of the classes, I'll give some tips for the others. Sorry for the length, I have a habit of being a bit wordy.
[b]Engineer:[/b] For Engy, I usually use Rescue Ranger, Short Circuit (used to use Wrangler, sometimes still use it) and stock Wrench. Rescue is only good for the building retrieval over distance, I occasionally peck at enemies over distances with it to soften them up but normally my Wrench, Short Circuit or Sentry will be killing. Short Circuit I use to distract giant projectile classes and hordes of them, but I only really use it when I've got a ton of metal or I need to protect someone, since the medic shield should be up often. Stock wrench since random crits are great and when you max swing speed you end up actually being useful on the tank with it (I normally move sentry + dispenser up along with the tank, some people don't do it but I've had success, and when it's dead I move back up). I don't use the Pomson since somehow I've popped ubers using it on Medics which is ass backwards, the frontier justice crits are nice but I prefer the building retrieval over it, Widowmaker is only for fun builds since it can be good with max metal & firing speed but normally you'll spend upgrades on your machines more than that. I don't use Gunslinger (obviously, only for fun builds with friends), Southern Hospitality (bleed isn't worth fire damage), Jag (weak damage, increase in deploy speed is minimal) or Eureka Effect (can't move buildings, so useless).
I usually upgrade Dispenser Range then building canteens first wave, and basically baby my sentry, kill spies and repair shit (building canteens shouldn't need to be used first wave but usually you don't have much cash for anything else but 2 canteens). Next wave I try to upgrade metal so I have 400 in reserve, so I can keep plopping buildings down and spamming SC while peppering the crowds with the ranger, and then upgrade building health. After that, I buy wrench swing speed so I can tank enemies with the sentry. Crit resistance as soon as crit bots show up, and bullet/blast resist alternate between other upgrades. 2 Way tele is only useful on maps like Bigrock since most classes can just run/jump back to follow a Super Scout if for some reason you let one through, and upgrades mid wave are usually done on death (unless it's zombie coaltown, then you'll want a 2 way tele).
Don't bother with metal regen, it's every 5 seconds so you could just walk to an ammo box in that time. Don't bother with the mini sentry upgrade, it's pitifully weak and gets no upgrades in firing speed or (I think) health. Don't get Short Circuit firing speed, you'll drain your metal way too fast. Firing Speed on the Sentry is usually my last upgrade, since the sentry usually only kills the weak mobs and more fire speed means more metal wasted on refilling its ammo, meaning you need to stay by the sentry longer. It's good later on when you've got to tank giants and you'll be babying the sentry anyways so it's okay to get it then.
Always put your sentry a bit back from the front lines but still there, just so Pyros can get health-on-kill without you kill-stealing and to serve as a buffer when the horde pushes back. If there's a giant coming or a Super Scout, put the sentry at a chokepoint and bodyblock with it: if it's a super scout, don't wail on the sentry, stand next to it and jump so he gets caught. Dispenser should be by the frontlines, not by the sentry, unless it's a good spot up front for both. I usually don't like putting the dispenser near my sentry since busters usually trample it mid-way to the gun, or if I'm not paying attention they'll detonate near the sentry and if I retrieve the sentry the dispenser's now destroyed (bonus points lost if a teammate was healing when the buster detonated). With the ranger it's too dangerous to drag busters into crowds since you take minicrits when hauling, so just plop the building away from the team, wait for the buster to detonate, then retrieve/haul it away. I try to save my sentry from busters instead of letting them detonate and destroy my stuff since Medics can get full uber off of them with the ubersaw, and Heavies and Soldiers can build rage.
Some people like using crit canteens as engy for fast firing and no ammo loss or ubercharge to tank enemies but they're both expensive and it's cheaper to just rebuild instead. Ammo refill isn't that useful if you've upgraded metal, and recall isn't necessary.
[b]Pyro:[/b] Honestly, I'm a shit Pyro in MvM (outside of it I'm fine). I constantly die regardless of resists and health-on-kill if I'm in the fray unless I can get an overheal or the Scout constantly drops milk, so I often just stay back, reflect projectiles, reflect Super Scouts and Medics, and reset the bomb.
I roll Degreaser, Shotgun and Powerjack (I switch to Phlog if there's a lot of tanks or reflecting the bomb isn't a priority, but if it isn't a priority I'm probably not playing Pyro in the first place). Degreaser over stock for reflecting and then shotgunning since the switch speed increase makes it easier for me to deal with threats. Shotgun over flareguns since that's my main damage dealer when I'm not reflecting, and I'd rather not have to upgrade the flaregun when I'm strapped for cash as it is with the class. Regular shotty over Reserve shooter since the Degreaser already gives me switch speed and the 3 less in reserve ammo hurts badly, plus the minicrits are too situational. Powerjack over axstinguisher since I use the move speed to get back to the battle and the health on kill is nice, and I'm usually not going to need the axstinguisher crits unless I'm fighting a giant and the knockback would fuck me up anyways, so I just alternate between bouncing them back and flaming. I don't use Neon for similar reasons, even though most enemies are going to be milked it's faster to just flame them, and I shouldn't need to worry about sappers since the Engy won't get stabbed with me around (and since he should be paying attention). Backscratcher makes overheals take forever and the medic can just build uber off the sentry busters. Shouldn't have to say why the Fragment is useless. Third Degree isn't useful since if the Demo is alive there won't be any Medics.
I usually play by ear with Pyro depending on the first wave. Only upgrade the class and the flamethrower, canteen choice usually is either recall or uber depending on how it's going (recall if the bomb's not getting close to spawn so I can afford to get risky up close and then recall to heal, uber if I need to push the bomb back and get in the fray) Upgrade airblast knockback a bit, ammo capacity soon afterwards, health on kill, resists, damage, speed (kind of useful since you can circle strafe and take less damage, but not a huge priority), it's a hassle with upgrades for Pyro since there's so much that needs to be done to keep him alive. Don't bother with burn length or damage since afterburn is near useless unless you're using axstinguisher.
Pyro's a hard class for me to play in MvM, which is ironic since it's ridiculously easy in regular matches. I usually just go a different class as I'd probably be more effective as something else.
[B]Sniper[/B] I roll Heatmaker, Jarate and whatever cosmetic melee I'm feeling. Make sure Re-Scope After Firing is on or the whole point of the Heatmaker is gone. I use Heatmaker for the focus which is very useful, but sometimes I roll Sydney Sleeper for jarate-on-hit but the loss of regular headshot damage (other than explosive headshot damage) makes killing giants harder, plus sometimes I get kicked for using it (usually I get kicked for going Sniper in the first place so I'd rather not make people even more antsy). Hunstman doesn't have explosive headshot so it's useless, penetration isn't helpful enough to offset that and bleed is useless. Machina doesn't have the benefits of focus and the extra 15% doesn't seem good enough to trade off, and penetration isn't that big of a deal. I used to use Bazaar Bargain when it was bugged but now I rarely use it since I don't charge shots too often where it'd be effective compared to the benefit of focus (no re-scope, 2.5 headshots worth of Bargain charge rate pretty quickly since I only need 3 kills). Stock melee since the Bushwacka fire vulnerability hurts as I'm not going to upgrade fire resist at all, Shiv bleed isn't useful and Shahansha sucks when dealing with spies unless I risk getting low health. Jarate for obvious reasons, it's too useful for the team to instead up my survivability.
Max explosive headshot first thing, because the slow will be more useful than jarate's slow. Then, damage and reload alternating between them. Afterwards, charge speed (not really necessary but I do it out of habit) and jarate refill. Jarate slow if the Scout is bad with his milk, otherwise save it for when you're done with everything else. Then, a bit of bullet resist, just so Snipers don't one shot you, and max crit resist eventually. Fire resist isn't necessary, blast resist is an option if soldiers are killing you or rolling grenades kill you.
When killing medics, hit the pocket (usually giant) first in the head. The explosive headshot will kill all of his medics and they won't pop if you miss and land a body shot on him since it'll be weak due to the bodyshot heatmaker penalty, and you won't risk popping an uber if you were to aim for a Medic. Throw jarate occasionally, if there's a buff banner soldier with you then it's not really too important. Just focus on killing medics and eliminating crowds with the explosive headshot. Giants aren't really your focus since other classes will out DPS you on them, especially Heavies, but if there's a crowd around a giant hit the giant in the head to soften the crowd and the giant.
Ironically the single-target elimination Sniper in PvP is more of crowd control in MvM. I usually do awesome with Sniper in MvM, better than demo at crowds and medics but way worse on the tank and a bit worse on giants (max damage crit stickies are awesome), it's a shame there's such a stigma against his use.
[b]Spy:[/b] I don't use Spy often, he can be great but he needs a good team to help.
I haven't played Spy since the Diamondback got buffed, but I'd probably use that now. There's a bug in PvP where if you get critboosted by the kritzkreig the Diamondback crits won't work, I'm not sure if that would happen in MvM with crit on knife kill or crit canteens (they're different addconds so I don't think it'll happen) so I'd recommend not getting either to be safe. Before, I'd use the L'Etranger for the extra cloak time and to pop quick shots when waiting for cloak to refill. For the Knife, I use the regular knife, since I need to be disguised all the time for bots not to fire on sight, losing the knife due to flames just keeps me out of the game longer than plain dying or running away, the big earner isn't useful for me and the kunai is too risky for crowds when there's no overheal from the stab. Dead Ringer of course, cloak is useless in MvM since disguise makes you basically invisible anyways and bots track you for a second or so when you cloak regardless so damage resistance makes it much more likely you'll survive running away. Use the regular sapper/ap-sap, I know robots are treated the same when sapped but when dealing with Sentries and Teleporters outright destruction is more useful then slow decay.
I don't recall my upgrade strategy, it's usually play by ear depending on the wave and how I'm doing. Don't upgrade the revolver. Stab speed and penetration are very useful, at max penetration and speed you'll do about 4 backstabs of 750 damage each before getting caught and having to feign death, which is basically enough to kill a Giant Medic if you've got backup. For canteen, use ammo refill so you can get the sapper back instantly. Sapper power should be maxed at some point. Speed is actually a bit useful when dealing with giant scouts and getting away from damage while feigning death. If you're filling in for a Scout, which isn't advised whatsoever due to lack of milk and FoW, understand it's thrice as hard to get cash unless you upgrade speed. Resists are great, but don't rely on them, you're still paper thin. Health on Kill is something to consider, can make up for lack of overheal if you're not using the kunai but it's not too vital.
Strategy: Sap crowds, stab em (when sapped any knife hit is a backstab regardless of orientation on small robots). Kill medics. When killing giants, stab four times then feign death (assuming max fire speed). Resupply at the dispenser then head on out. Sap giant scouts, especially if there's no Milk Scout. Get loose cash. If it's a boss giant you can either bodyblock while disguised by standing in front and jumping, or you can stab 4 times and run. Stabbing is what I usually do, especially since they made giants easier to escape bodyblocks.
I rarely play Spy but in Mann Up I've seen Spies who are immensely helpful, but then again any class can be awesome depending on the circumstances, it's just way easier to fuck up as a Spy.
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;43747195]Strategy: Sap crowds, stab em (when sapped any knife hit is a backstab regardless of orientation on small robots).
[/QUOTE]
If this is legit, I never knew about it
Are you seriously suggesting resistances on soldier/demo? The only 2 classes that you SHOULD get resistances on is heavy and pyro. Every other class can play without it just fine, except crit resistance, which every class should have maxed out by the end. Resistances on these classes are something you get when your primary is maxed out.
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