MvM Discussion Megathread: Do Androids Complain of Overpowered Upgrades? - Games

wait what?

[QUOTE=kibbleknight;43830433]wait what?[/QUOTE] Explosive headshots technically aren't crits or minicrits so you can boost their damage with Buff Banner, Jarate, Fan O'War, etc Haven't really bothered to use a crit canteen to see if an explosive headshot in that case would cause all of them to eat a crit though.

EH can't be crit-boosted but can be mini-crit boosted just like some weapons (Cow Mangler, Short Circuit comes to mind). Afterall, it's technically dealing bleed damage.

just did metro with rocketjumper + shotgun :v: [thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvm/adventure1.jpg[/thumb] [thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvm/adventure3.jpg[/thumb] when the chief blaster spawned I tried jumping on him when he comes down, of course I slid off with the newest fix but interestingly he just stopped moving and stared at me, completely outraged. It was hilarious. [thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvm/adventure2.jpg[/thumb]

Spy needs a serious buff. He's the most useless of all the classes. First, there isn't an option to increase recharge rate for sapper. Second, sapper sometimes doesn't even work. Third, it's impossible to use cloak. Fourth, there needs to be some sapper upgrades like explosive sapper or two sappers at once.

[QUOTE=redBadger;43835738]Spy needs a serious buff. He's the most useless of all the classes. First, there isn't an option to increase recharge rate for sapper. Second, sapper sometimes doesn't even work. Third, it's impossible to use cloak. Fourth, there needs to be some sapper upgrades like explosive sapper or two sappers at once.[/QUOTE] Spies should always focus on their knives since it's their most useful weapon. When fully upgraded you do 986 damage per stab on a giant and you can do it 3 times with max attack speed per run. Nobody else can dish out so much damage so fast on a giant. With that said you're calling spy the most useless? He can replace a scout, a demo, a heavy and a sniper. Why would you instead of doing that upgrade your sapper? Sapper is pretty much pointless. It's something you upgrade after you've maxed your knife, resist and move speed just because upgrading your revolver is even more pointless. A demo or heavy can focus on crowd control already. Cloak spy is indeed impossible to play.

They pretty much make disguise an infinite and more effective cloak to use in MVM anyway.

[QUOTE=redBadger;43835738]Spy needs a serious buff. He's the most useless of all the classes. First, there isn't an option to increase recharge rate for sapper. Second, sapper sometimes doesn't even work. Third, it's impossible to use cloak. Fourth, there needs to be some sapper upgrades like explosive sapper or two sappers at once.[/QUOTE] You got a point on how Spy without DR is useless, but really, with DR you can wreck stuff. You can pick money up, sap robots and deal a ton of damage, which basically makes you better than a Scout. Also, you CAN instantly recharge your sapper with ammo canteen. And you can, in fact, upgrade your sapper to place two of them at once. Or three. Or four. Or five. Or Six. Or Seven. Or fifteen. The only problem with Spy is Sniper syndrome. A good Spy can be more helpful than many other classes, but those spies are rare.

cloak is playable, you just gotta make sure you aren't being followed when you strike and never get in crossfire its nightmare mode

Did someone say that Spy is useless? I don't agree, but still, I will suggest some buffs. WELCOME TOOO [B][I]THE THREE CITIES UPDATE!![/I][/B] [B]Day 1:[/B] Bardville IT WAS THE FUTURE OF TIMES... In the first city, Bardville, all that everyone does is singing and dancing, and getting attacked by robots once in a while. The last incident was reported a couple decades ago, when our mercs fought robots in the snowy city. While looking at a stupid children book, we found a tale about those glorious days: [I]"Take a nice cup of hot chocolate, my young boy, and let me tell the history of nine heroes that fought on these very snowy lands you're stepping on right now." Said the old man, as he grabbed a lute near him. He started to sing the song of their people: "There once was a man who wanted to conquer the darkest secrets of Australia. Using only his greedy mind, he built an army that seeked for his own regalia. Giant men, metal men, running on piles of dollars. But they didn't count that they would be defeated by a group of... special scholars. Eight skilled mercenaries, ready to fight until death. But one of them, a dashing rogue, they say that he wasn't the best. [/I]'Underpowered!'[I] he said, [/I]'I need more power!'[I] And one day the robot attacked this very city guard tower. Assingned to fight the metal menace, the mercs came to this town. As it was always snowing, they entered a tavern to cool down. At this very tavern was where I met them, but not everyone. The rogue, they said, wanted a time alone. But when he came back, he happily shouted: [/I]'Gentlemen, I finally found something that'll make me overpowered!'[I] He showed us, in his hand, some weird gears. And that was how, in this very land, he found what he looked for in years." "And what was that?" the kid proptly asked. "Something that he experimented with his invibility watch, and made it better at fighting the robots." "Sounds legit." the kid said, while laughing and drinking his chocolate.[/I] All that tale teaches us three things: Those town people are dumb singers, bad at rhymes and liars. The only thing the mercs ever found on that tavern was our very Mann Co.at Factory in disguise! Also, the Spy never found any gears, he just found some nuts and bolts and tried to make them float around his hat. Hah! What a guy! Bardburg comes out with a totally new feature for TF2: realism! If you stay out for too long without taking a mug of hot coffee, your character will freeze and die! To avoid that, be sure to buy charges of the new Hot Coffee canteen! It fully heals and overheals you and gives a speed buff for several seconds. Also, along with realism, we give you an advice: don't try to lick those damn robots! [B]Spy Watch Upgrades:[/B] In this Three Cities Update, the Spy will get a bunch of useful upgrades to make you enjoy playing the game with something that's not the Dead Ringer! [B]Invisibility Mastery: $200~300 (up to 3 points)[/B] Increases the cloak battery time and cash collect radius while invisible. Cloak time increase by 30% per point and cash collection radius increase by one third of the Scout's per point, capping at the same radius as the Scout's at the third point. Available for the Invis Watch, Dead Ringer and Cloak and Dagger. [B]Cloak improvement: $200~300 (up to 3 points)[/B] Gives +25% damage resistance to all types of damage (yes, even melee damage), +5 health per second while invisible and +10% faster movement speed while invisible per point. Available only for the Invis Watch and Cloak and Dagger.

I'd prefer a good Scout over an okay Spy, and 9 times out of 10 you're lucky the guy who goes Spy is even mediocre (Sniper syndrome as mentioned above). Yeah, if you play with friends anything's good to go, but most players queue solo so it's a crapshoot what you'll get in terms of skill. Spy just isn't worth the risk and hassle so even good Spies will play other classes instead if tour loot is on the line. -It's way too easy to fuck up as Spy collecting cash unless you upgrade move speed and make sure your team only kills people on the path and collects cash if they see it. -You don't have the cash radius so you need to walk directly on it to collect it, which can be a hassle especially if there's a bot standing over it or it's on a rock or something. -You don't get health from cash so you can't tank robots by having 700hp, and even though disguise fools the robots stray shots will down you fast. -You're reliant on DR so if you can't get ammo you're out of the fight until it recharges, and the sapper recharges so slowly that you'll have to use ammo canteens a lot versus no canteens. -You can't knock bots into a pit and reset the bomb like with the Force-a-Nature. -Early waves are tough because your upgrades cost money and without them you're paper-thin, slow and have little utility that a milk & fan scout has from the get go, which lets Pyros and Heavies utterly decimate other bots and regen health off them while they're slowed. -You have normal respawn speed so unless you waste the cash you desperately need on buying back in or you have a good Medic to revive you in the middle of a mob you're out of he fight for a bit. Spy is an excellent Giant killer but other classes everything else better. I think Spy needs buffs to be worth it for the average player to use him, honestly. Again, playing with friends is always easier so Spy can be great there (so can Gunslinger Engies and Rocketjumper Sollies but if you were to try that in a pub you'd lose on the first or second wave unless by miracle everyone who queued was good and could handle the loss of utility) but he's just not good enough for me to risk playing him when I could go Scout.

[QUOTE=SleepyAl;43838005] -It's way too easy to fuck up as Spy collecting cash unless you upgrade move speed and make sure your team only kills people on the path and collects cash if they see it. -You don't have the cash radius so you need to walk directly on it to collect it, which can be a hassle especially if there's a bot standing over it or it's on a rock or something. -You don't get health from cash so you can't tank robots by having 700hp, and even though disguise fools the robots stray shots will down you fast. -You're reliant on DR so if you can't get ammo you're out of the fight until it recharges, and the sapper recharges so slowly that you'll have to use ammo canteens a lot versus no canteens. -You can't knock bots into a pit and reset the bomb like with the Force-a-Nature. -Early waves are tough because your upgrades cost money and without them you're paper-thin, slow and have little utility that a milk & fan scout has from the get go, which lets Pyros and Heavies utterly decimate other bots and regen health off them while they're slowed. -You have normal respawn speed so unless you waste the cash you desperately need on buying back in or you have a good Medic to revive you in the middle of a mob you're out of he fight for a bit. [/QUOTE] 1- that's a personal skill thing, it's not a good argument 2- on the contrary you can actually get money in places where the scout would be constantly pushed away from a sentry or focus fire 3- the only threat is crossfire. if you plan your movement and your attacks (aswell as understanding how AI prioritizes things) you have no reason to die especially with DR 4- personal skill. don't waste your DR on trivial robots, plan things out. 5- killpits lol 6- make use of aggro and sappers and the giants won't even attack your pyros and heavies 7- long respawn is indeed an issue I can agree with. but that is avoidable by not dying (because you're pratically invisible and invincible all the time)

Why does people want to buff spy just so bad players can play him? Buffing something just so shitbads can use it is something you should never do. Just look at medic.

[QUOTE=Exhale;43838496]Why does people want to buff spy just so bad players can play him? Buffing something just so shitbads can use it is something you should never do. Just look at medic.[/QUOTE] After Two Cities hit, I was greeted by 4 medics in Mann Up. Two of which didn't even revive or use their mediguns, they just had fully upgraded crossbows. :v:

[QUOTE=Hell-met;43838297]1- that's a personal skill thing, it's not a good argument 2- on the contrary you can actually get money in places where the scout would be constantly pushed away from a sentry or focus fire 3- the only threat is crossfire. if you plan your movement and your attacks (aswell as understanding how AI prioritizes things) you have no reason to die especially with DR 4- personal skill. don't waste your DR on trivial robots, plan things out. 5- killpits lol 6- make use of aggro and sappers and the giants won't even attack your pyros and heavies 7- long respawn is indeed an issue I can agree with. but that is avoidable by not dying (because you're pratically invisible and invincible all the time)[/QUOTE] So you basically have to do all this planning, get to a good location and wait, know how the bots work, and be super good at the game and hope your team can survive without milk and mark to be effective as a Spy... Or you just go Scout, milk everything while running at Sanic speeds, and occasionally get close to whack a bot with a fan. All you need to do is wait a bit for cash to start spawning before you basically become invincible. You don't even need to shoot stuff at all to be effective, all you have to do is milk and mark and keep moving. Easy. All I'm saying is that one is by far easier and arguably more effective to use. I'm not saying Spy sucks in all cases, but he has a way higher skill floor to do well with in MvM. A little buff to make him not a drain on the team if someone who isn't incredibly good at the game chooses his class.When I go Spy in MvM for shits and giggles I always feel like "if I was Demo or Soldier I'd kill way more stuff, or "if I was Scout I'd help the team more." Hell, with Soldier you can roam via rocket jumps and collect cash easier than Spy, you can stun with the launcher, you do way more damage at range, you can buff the team with the banner so they can do minicrits, and Sentries are easily and quickly destroyed with a few rockets. I guess he can stay a niche class to use every once in a while but we've seen how the latest Medic buffs have made playing that class a lot more effective and also added some strategy too. But whatever, that's just my opinion.

being good gives you good results yes pretty much

[quote]Fixed an exploit where players could stand on a robot's head to block their movement for an easy kill[/quote] Challenge accepted. [t]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/3280047613911968878/ADCE2EB09990CB137E0E9062C2BD476243791C19/[/t] It couldn't budge an inch and for some weird reason it didn't shoot at the Scout to knock all of us away :v:

[QUOTE=ThePro1234;43842274]Challenge accepted. [t]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/3280047613911968878/ADCE2EB09990CB137E0E9062C2BD476243791C19/[/t] It couldn't budge an inch and for some weird reason it didn't shoot at the Scout to knock all of us away :v:[/QUOTE] Shows what an awful solution it was to a problem that didn't exist.

uh i joined a game and got 5 random people, finished it completely and at the last millisecond of the game when we were sent to the menu all i saw in the corner of my eye was someone saying "go back to facepunch" or something like that i didnt catch the name or the full sentence but i'm a little thrown off now

they know

The ideas of Omninerd are pretty damn awesome. I think I'll contribute with some not so good ideas too. 1- Decrease the point of the "Sapper upgrade" at 300 points per level, generally those 50 gets unused after the 2nd round, with this upgrade you could now upgrade the "Jump Height" too! (Igetbashedforbadidea) 2- "Money Vision" Those years of gazing on the enemy wallets have been proven useful! Spy now has the ability to see money throu walls and pin-point it to the team mates, making it more synergitetic with his role* Can be 250-350 It will say something like "I Spy a good retirement! as he points with his left hand into a pile of money (Something like Portal 2. The bad part? On DX8 maybe will not work, except if it used a new fresh sprite, Toaster PC have feels too!) This can be easily be done with custom sprites, the pin-point was to making it not so useless 3- "Counterfeit power" the Spy can create a false bomb that will fool bots, they will drop their current bomb and focus on the fake bomb for a short time period and the real bomb will be covered with a mann co crate 350-400* (How the hell you code this? Nice point) ((A New bot will come with a key and it open the box, with a 99% chance to spawn an Unusual bomb)) 4- "Electrified bullet" Spy headshots with the "Ambassador" will now cause "Malfunction" on the Bots, making them unable to act and get "Gated" like on Mannhattan (Can be used to quickly incap the Sniper bots. Can maybe upgrade the "refresh" rate on the Amby too. 5- "Deus not so Machina" Sapper now does not require recharge after sapping Enemies Machinery What you think about this? I know I know, those upgrade names are lame as hell. But I want to know what ya' guys think about

It sure was a great idea to make sniper gain minicrits for getting a kill with the carbine. [t]http://i.imgur.com/7g14J8x.jpg[/t] [t]http://i.imgur.com/bzyhMUg.jpg[/t]

[QUOTE=OffTheRoad;43845803]It sure was a great idea to make sniper gain minicrits for getting a kill with the carbine. [t]http://i.imgur.com/7g14J8x.jpg[/t] [t]http://i.imgur.com/bzyhMUg.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] Dear god. As if the Bushwacka wasn't annoying enough as it was. On the plus hurray for being useful in MvM.

[QUOTE=MrLagineer;43846370]Dear god. As if the Bushwacka wasn't annoying enough as it was. On the plus hurray for being useful in MvM.[/QUOTE] Well, it is kind of pointless thing if you are not next to the tank to get a kill or there are no robots to kill. Not to forget that most of the the time our soldier or heavy took said robots out before I could, leaving me without minicrits to use. [editline]9th February 2014[/editline] And there is also a fact that those 800 spent on the melee could also be spent on something else, like charge upgrades for your sniper.

[QUOTE=MrLagineer;43846370]Dear god. As if the Bushwacka wasn't annoying enough as it was. On the plus hurray for being useful in MvM.[/QUOTE] In PvP, Jarate is still more powerful. You don't have to kill anyone to get free bushwacka crits, much less with an utterly useless weapon. And in MvM, Jarate gives minicrits to everyone plus can be upgraded with slowdown, so...

You can also just get the soldier to buff you with his banner if you want to slap the tank with the bushwacker.

[thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvm/stunbuster.jpg[/thumb] this is what happens when you make a buster mad

[B][I]THE THREE CITIES UPDATE!![/I][/B] [B]Day 2:[/B] Barnaburg IT WAS THE HARDEST OF TIMES... The second city will bring our mercs away from the new continent, crossing the oceans to an oasis in the middle of the wildest Australia. It's Barnaburg, where the Hale family stabilished themselves after being chased by the Australian Puritans for punching kangaroos and koalas. Barnabus Hale founded this city, and the first law that he decreeted was "no kangaroos, koalas or metal men will step on this city unpunched". Now, the mercs jobs is to fulfill this law by killing all the robots that want to nuke Saxton's hometown. Barnabus would be proud that his "bomb-shaped self-destruct hole" design is being put to some use finally. [B]Sniper Upgrades:[/B] [I]Thankfully, the mercs have a survivor with them, and in his own home right now. The Sniper, remembering his childhood memories of shagging sheeps and hunting snakes for dinner will finally be put to some use.[/I] [B]Money Tracker: $400[/B] Shoot at piles of money to grab them. [B]Huntsman Upgrades:[/B] [I]The huntsman, a traditional Australian tool for kicking asses, will now be upgraded to be the deadliest weapon around with these new upgrades:[/I] [B]Headhunter: $400 (up to 3 points)[/B] +15% arrow speed per point (also affects the arc, so gravity doesn't affect it as much as before). On headshot: arrow does maximum damage, stuns target, damage and slow enemies near target. Rank increases explosion radius, slow strength (50% / 65% / 80% slow) and duration (2 / 3 / 4 seconds). Basically, a rocket specialist upgrade mixed with the explosive headshot. [B]Penetration Mastery: $250 (up to 3 points)[/B] Replaces projectile penetration. Arrow penetrates +1 enemy for each point, and does +25% damage for each enemy penetrated (oh my god why does all this penetration stuff sound so bad in my head). [B]Sydney Sleeper Upgrades:[/B] [I]Human body's deadliest weapon since the beggining of humanity will finally come back to it's former glory:[/I] [B]Explosive Darts: $350 (up to 3 points)[/B] Replaces the explosive headshot, but does the same effect as the EH upgrade + coat enemies in radius with Jarate. [B]-35% Speed on Target: $350[/B] On headshot: Applies the same speed penalty as Jarate. Also, can slow down groups when combined with the Explosive Darts upgrade. [B]Machina Upgrades:[/B] [I]The future is upon us, so the Machina should come up with something to make it actually useful:[/I] [B]+10% damage on penetration: $400 (up to 3 points)[/B] Gives +10% damage per enemy penetrated per point on this upgrade. [B]Edit:[/B] By the way, first MvM map with water at some parts because I want one that has water on it [I]so bad[/I]. Also, the robots now know how to swim, yup.

[thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvm/beg1.jpg[/thumb] [thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvm/beg2.jpg[/thumb] no refund (except 1 scout)

Botbash is pretty much where you can mess around a lot. I consider it to be a very easy version of Broken Parts.