MvM Discussion Megathread: Do Androids Complain of Overpowered Upgrades? - Games

[sp] So that is where hodor got that tactic from. Acting like he knows shit when he just copy others. Yes I am mad. [/sp] If only I could be allowed to do that. 95% of the time no matter the team (be it pre-made or pubs) they always either fail at stopping the scouts, doesn't focus the heavies or take out the stairs. Doesn't matter if I cover one of things they always let me down, even after I give them clear instructions what to do.

[sp]This strategy is what both of us came up with though :v:[/sp] Tbh half the time team couldn't cover the bottom is because Demoman/Sniper was shit at talking out those heavies.

a little treat for the loyal viewers of this thread [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vSK8N3hwxU[/media]

it makes me think how unfair would be if there were actually sticky demos on MvM maps.

I can play every class in mvm at least adequately well except for spy. I feel useless most of the time, unless there's a giant bot out or I'm collecting money in lieu of a scout. I know enough to increase resistances and armor piercing but am I missing some important aspect of the class? I find it difficult to choose spy over almost any other class most of the time.

Spy is a poor choice regardless of what the rest of your team is composed of. The class itself is [B]inferior[/B] to the other options you have for a number of reasons. Primarily and simply, every other class does what the Spy does, except they do it [I]better[/I], [I]more easily[/I] or [I]more reliably.[/I] Dont get me wrong, I dont hate the Spy as a class. Its just that he doesnt lend himself well to MvM as a game-mode. The Spy is fundamentally a player-versus-player class. His disguise mechanic and single-target assassination is designed for PvP environments. In a game mode versus hordes of comparitively dumb AI opponents with a few occasional 'boss' type enemies such as Giants or Tanks, the Spy falls short in every category even with upgrades. For money collection you've got a Scout who does more to help the team by being an immense damage sponge (via tanking raw damage absorbing money for the overheal or speed-tanking, where robots shoot at the Scout and a large portion of those shorts miss due to his speed). The Scout also assists the team with Mad Milk, Marked-for-Death and the damage he deals across all targets with his primary weapon at all times. For general anti-robot destruction, basically every other class surpasses the Spy. For anti-giants or specific targets, the Soldier does a better job with his rockets that can annihilate Sentry nests or enemy Sniper robots at long range. The player Sniper does the same thing. Except outside of those specific targets they contribute more to general fighting as well, with Soldier's rocket AoE damage, Sniper jarate and explosive headshots, etc. The Sniper can deal 900 damage to a single Giant every second or so, with about 200 damage to every nearby target. Thats like a ranged Sapper combined with a backstab to every affected target. For a Spy to backstab a target he has to risk his life in melee range amongst (most likely) other robots who are shooting explosives and fire everywhere. Even then, the (most likely) Giant will spin around and slap the Spy as soon as he gets a backstab off. There are competent Spies who can play Spy "well" in MvM. I know. However, those same players could do more, more easily, more reliably, with other classes.

[QUOTE=Venrez;44615323]Spy is a poor choice regardless of what the rest of your team is composed of. The class itself is [B]inferior[/B] to the other options you have for a number of reasons. Primarily and simply, every other class does what the Spy does, except they do it [I]better[/I], [I]more easily[/I] or [I]more reliably.[/I] Dont get me wrong, I dont hate the Spy as a class. Its just that he doesnt lend himself well to MvM as a game-mode. The Spy is fundamentally a player-versus-player class. His disguise mechanic and single-target assassination is designed for PvP environments. In a game mode versus hordes of comparitively dumb AI opponents with a few occasional 'boss' type enemies such as Giants or Tanks, the Spy falls short in every category even with upgrades. For money collection you've got a Scout who does more to help the team by being an immense damage sponge (via tanking raw damage absorbing money for the overheal or speed-tanking, where robots shoot at the Scout and a large portion of those shorts miss due to his speed). The Scout also assists the team with Mad Milk, Marked-for-Death and the damage he deals across all targets with his primary weapon at all times. For general anti-robot destruction, basically every other class surpasses the Spy. For anti-giants or specific targets, the Soldier does a better job with his rockets that can annihilate Sentry nests or enemy Sniper robots at long range. The player Sniper does the same thing. Except outside of those specific targets they contribute more to general fighting as well, with Soldier's rocket AoE damage, Sniper jarate and explosive headshots, etc. The Sniper can deal 900 damage to a single Giant every second or so, with about 200 damage to every nearby target. Thats like a ranged Sapper combined with a backstab to every affected target. For a Spy to backstab a target he has to risk his life in melee range amongst (most likely) other robots who are shooting explosives and fire everywhere. Even then, the (most likely) Giant will spin around and slap the Spy as soon as he gets a backstab off. There are competent Spies who can play Spy "well" in MvM. I know. However, those same players could do more, more easily, more reliably, with other classes.[/QUOTE] A mvm spy is capable of doing THE most damage to any giant than any other class You badly underestimate just how good a mvm spy can be

I didn't know that soldier could do 2800~ damage in 1 sec. Don't even know why I am replying to you. You already proved on spud that you ignore any logic or reasoning.

[QUOTE=Venrez;44615323]Spy is a poor choice regardless of what the rest of your team is composed of. The class itself is [B]inferior[/B] to the other options you have for a number of reasons. Primarily and simply, every other class does what the Spy does, except they do it [I]better[/I], [I]more easily[/I] or [I]more reliably.[/I] Dont get me wrong, I dont hate the Spy as a class. Its just that he doesnt lend himself well to MvM as a game-mode. The Spy is fundamentally a player-versus-player class. His disguise mechanic and single-target assassination is designed for PvP environments. In a game mode versus hordes of comparitively dumb AI opponents with a few occasional 'boss' type enemies such as Giants or Tanks, the Spy falls short in every category even with upgrades. For money collection you've got a Scout who does more to help the team by being an immense damage sponge (via tanking raw damage absorbing money for the overheal or speed-tanking, where robots shoot at the Scout and a large portion of those shorts miss due to his speed). The Scout also assists the team with Mad Milk, Marked-for-Death and the damage he deals across all targets with his primary weapon at all times. For general anti-robot destruction, basically every other class surpasses the Spy. For anti-giants or specific targets, the Soldier does a better job with his rockets that can annihilate Sentry nests or enemy Sniper robots at long range. The player Sniper does the same thing. Except outside of those specific targets they contribute more to general fighting as well, with Soldier's rocket AoE damage, Sniper jarate and explosive headshots, etc. The Sniper can deal 900 damage to a single Giant every second or so, with about 200 damage to every nearby target. Thats like a ranged Sapper combined with a backstab to every affected target. For a Spy to backstab a target he has to risk his life in melee range amongst (most likely) other robots who are shooting explosives and fire everywhere. Even then, the (most likely) Giant will spin around and slap the Spy as soon as he gets a backstab off. There are competent Spies who can play Spy "well" in MvM. I know. However, those same players could do more, more easily, more reliably, with other classes.[/QUOTE] Every class might do what spy does better, but no other class can be a a sniper, scout and demoman rolled into one package.

Well, consider he tried his best to prove that Pistol is better than Wrangler and buying 1 Health Regen is highly recommended for Soldier back in Steam Community Hub, we don't really need to engage in argument with him again in here.

i like the part where "spy is for pvp only" even though disguise is a million times more powerful vs AI than it is vs people

[QUOTE=Hell-met;44617150]i like the part where "spy is for pvp only" even though disguise is a million times more powerful vs AI than it is vs people[/QUOTE] But Hell-met, anything times Zero is still Zero :^) really though half of my mvm tours are as spy, people need to judge the person not the class

Does anyone have a video of a good mvm spy playing?

[QUOTE=zekrom3112;44617246]Does anyone have a video of a good mvm spy playing?[/QUOTE] mann up or bootcamp?

[QUOTE=SoftHearted;44617282]mann up or bootcamp?[/QUOTE] As long as it shows how an MvM spy should play. The higher dificulty the better.

I used to love playing Spy in MVM, but I don't anymore because I want to actually beat Mann Up mode. And the only way I'll be able to do that is to not play Spy because everyone automatically kicks spy because they hate winning.

[QUOTE=BoxinShrimp;44617751]I used to love playing Spy in MVM, but I don't anymore because I want to actually beat Mann Up mode. And the only way I'll be able to do that is to not play Spy because everyone automatically kicks spy because they hate winning.[/QUOTE] That was basically Medic before 2cities. That's why I think Spy will get buffed in MvM at some point.

spy already got his buff.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;44618518]spy already got his buff.[/QUOTE] Not OP enough. I consider classes to be ok when people can enter in a server without being kicked just because they selected that class most of the time.

Just a thought, but what if MvM upgrades would work like tech trees? Rather than 'buy everything' like you'd start with a set of initial upgrades which cater to different play styles/situations. Pick an upgrade and your presented with a set of side grades and the other initial upgrades are locked out.

[QUOTE=Cyanidious;44618941]Just a thought, but what if MvM upgrades would work like tech trees? Rather than 'buy everything' like you'd start with a set of initial upgrades which cater to different play styles/situations. Pick an upgrade and your presented with a set of side grades and the other initial upgrades are locked out.[/QUOTE] Sounds cool, but not too funny. Though it would be nice to have it in different types of missions. Some really large ones I guess.

[QUOTE=Omninerd;44618549]Not OP enough. I consider classes to be ok when people can enter in a server without being kicked just because they selected that class most of the time.[/QUOTE] you cant fix morons. and that mindset just makes you look like one

[QUOTE=Hell-met;44619632]you cant fix morons.[/QUOTE] That's what I'm basically saying. Since you can't fix the players, fix their complain. Robots never complain that people are OP, after all. :v: [QUOTE=Hell-met;44619632]and that mindset just makes you look like one[/QUOTE] Eh, sorry, but how does that make me look like a moron? I don't judge people by their class choices (even though yes, I complain when 3 guys decide to use the same class and no one wants to change even after 5 tries), nor do I vote to kick them.

you just said you judged a class completely depending on what the average retard thinks of it.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;44619926]you just said you judged a class completely depending on what the average retard thinks of it.[/QUOTE] When too many people complain about something, they are probably right. And I [B]see[/B] their point. I may not agree with it, but it's there. Spy needs skill to be goos/useful, and most people just don't have it. It's the same as Medic before 2cities, and it got way easier and useful to play for average players and got a higher skill ceiling too. I would love to see Spy get something like that.

By that logic, Sniper is shit too.

[QUOTE=ThePro1234;44619984]By that logic, Sniper is shit too.[/QUOTE] Agreed. Sniper is being a lot more accepted than Spy in the common view by what I've seen, but I still think he would get some new stuff. What's weird is that Pyros don't seen to get kicked that often from servers, even though I think he is the most useless class in MvM. Not weak, not useless, just the worst option IMO. [B]Edit:[/B] Geez, I gues I'm posting too much. I'll just sleep now because I'm not contributing with anything good right now. :v:

I'm of the opinion that Valve really needs to go back and sort out the missions from before 2 Cities as thanks to the various buffs towards Medic and Soldier they've just become far easier than before as they weren't designed around the medic having the shield.

Bring Mecha Expert!

whats the name of that mod where its mvm but its still pvp like people playing as uber medics and whatnot