MvM Discussion Megathread: Do Androids Complain of Overpowered Upgrades?
1,944 replies, posted
if you guys are bored, you can view this dumb thread here
[url]http://steamcommunity.com/app/440/discussions/1/540743213043462746/#p1[/url]
it's me whining against other whiners. it never ends.
the eternal struggle
i played 1 mission of gear grinder before mecha engi came out, now i have 1/3 but i could never do it because i use tickets on new tours
i can't do it now because all the good players stopped doing it and i dont want to waste 2 tickets on comparatively the most boring tour with boring loot
[QUOTE=Punchy;44993623]...most boring tour....[/QUOTE]
How dare you. Expert is surprisingly fun if you have the skill.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;44993431]if you guys are bored, you can view this dumb thread here
[url]http://steamcommunity.com/app/440/discussions/1/540743213043462746/#p1[/url]
it's me whining against other whiners. it never ends.[/QUOTE]
Guess who would have a "MvM Taliban" title right now if the boostar shop wasn't kneecapped.
I just found out how broken the Wrangler or Sentry Firing Speed upgrade is in MVM.
A normal unupgraded Sentry Gun needs 27 seconds to empty the ammo (rocket is ignored for this test).
Wranglered Sentry takes 18 seconds to empty the ammo, so does an un-wranglered 30% Firing speed Sentry Gun.
So from the look of this, you'd think the Wrangler boost the Sentry's firing rate by 30% instead of the supposed +100% (doubled), which we all already know.
However, if you buy even just one firing speed upgrade for sentry (only +10%), a wranglered Sentry Gun will be able to empty the ammo in only 9 seconds, the same as when you boost the Sentry Gun with Crit canteen. That's tripled the firing rate. And it's the maximum firing rate the Sentry can reach as further upgrade + Wrangler + Crit canteen ain't gonna boost it anymore.
TL,DR: Wrangler + one/two/three Sentry Firing speed upgrade will triple the Sentry's firing rate. Crit Canteen also triples the firing rate instead of double like Valve said. Wrangler is even more broken.
urgh
pyrovision keeps resetting each update, so I have to re-add all mvm maps manually every single time
[QUOTE=Hell-met;45001157]urgh
pyrovision keeps resetting each update, so I have to re-add all mvm maps manually every single time[/QUOTE]
good thing we rarely get those anymore then
[thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvmpyro.jpg[/thumb]
[thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvmpyro2.jpg[/thumb]
its beautiful
gonna try valve to fix mtp.cfg
[QUOTE=Hell-met;44993431]if you guys are bored, you can view this dumb thread here
[url]http://steamcommunity.com/app/440/discussions/1/540743213043462746/#p1[/url]
it's me whining against other whiners. it never ends.[/QUOTE]
And it's MvM related even what a suprise!
But seriously why do I even bother? I actually gave up on having discussions with people in general because no matter what you say they will never admit they are wrong.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;45001549][thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvmpyro.jpg[/thumb]
[thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvmpyro2.jpg[/thumb]
its beautiful
gonna try valve to fix mtp.cfg[/QUOTE]
It's pretty cool with mvm_decoy too. That makes me loves TF2 art-style.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;45016895][thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/kick.jpg[/thumb]
:v:[/QUOTE]
Did that happened on a mann up server? Because... whoa.
[QUOTE=JonnyAzzuris;45017397]Did that happened on a mann up server? Because... whoa.[/QUOTE]
it's just using console commands to kick bots from previous waves. kicking them has no actual effect since they are no longer in use but yeah
[QUOTE=Punchy;45017619]it's just using console commands to kick bots from previous waves. kicking them has no actual effect since they are no longer in use but yeah[/QUOTE]
You can kick them during the actual wave too. It effectively makes you have to kill 1 less robot. Imagine being lucky enough to do it on a boss.
Someone asked me 2 weeks ago what class has the best tank DPS early game.
So I went full retard and made him this chart - [URL]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xvjPQtSAd9rTK6VGueQS9XWVpLEiaQh02zmA2JpltWg/edit?usp=sharing[/URL]
This list will show you what every weapon (with a stat change) will do in DPS to a tank with a 800 credit interval.
Testing was done with as big a damage output as possible without inflicting self-harm. This means that all classes but Soldier and Demo are touching the tank while shooting, while Soldier and Demo is just outside the splash radius of their weapons. Crossbow medic was at max range.
No setup time was issued in this testing, which means that demo didn't have a stickytrap ready before the timer actually starts, nor does soldier have a barrage ready. I also didn't account for refilling time in the sentry DPS or time it takes for the medic to refill his shield. Probably more but I don't remember ATM.
Testing was also done without damagespread or random crits on, but I have provided the sheet with "crit mechanic" and "crit chance" to give you an idea of how often the weapons actually crit and how.
Now let me get this out now.
You WILL see some numbers that make you go "WTF! how can the DPS be this?? It doesn't make sense!" and lemme tell you - Valve can not code worth shit. Every single DPS you see is 99% correct, there might be a 0-2% error margin but this is pretty much what you get with these upgrades.
For example - 2nd firing speed upgrade for miniguns have the same DPS as the 1st upgrade and at max firing speed the heavy's DPS is actually roughly 70% bigger.
Sentry firing speed is another interesting one.
All in all the sheet should give you an idea how powerful these classes are against tanks with the upgrades listed. Most of the list can also be used to see DPS against the robots.
Tell me if you see a mistake but make sure you know that it is wrong. Like I said, it WILL look wrong but it is true.
Edit: Planning on adding Minicrit, Critical and other similiar things later.
Here's the full nerd Engineer is OP video about how broken Wrangler is because Hell-MUT doesn't trust exfat's datas:
[video=youtube;2sOTKPhbqbY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sOTKPhbqbY[/video]
Some interesting facts:
- I've noticed that sometimes the Wrangler + 10% Firing Speed will revert back to normal (not firing as fast as it would in this video) when I was testing it in real games on Mann Up, but for most of the time the gun will just be on hyper mode when Wranglered. Obvious shitty coding by Valve on Wrangler, just grab x2 firing speed upgrades and you're all set.
- The difference between 10% and 20% Firing Speed is too minuscule to be shown in video (maybe I'll go crazy with 180 frames per seconds for extremely accurate measurement if my PC doesn't crash), but it should be in the range of .3 - .5 second error margin.
- Missiles are ignored for the test. Wrangler does increase the missile's rate of fire though, Crit Canteen/Firing Speed upgrade does not.
- Vegas crashed about 16 times during the making of this video since it hates split screen. Gimme all of those time back now!
[QUOTE=Punchy;45017619]it's just using console commands to kick bots from previous waves. kicking them has no actual effect since they are no longer in use but yeah[/QUOTE]
if you start the vote moments before the wave begins, it will affect a live robot.
I've been thinking alot about the consequences of a new tour with [b]zero money[/b] (no upgrades).
This is what I have concluded :
[b]Scout[/b] would be most likely outclassed by the other combat classes. While he could still provide excellent utility, no money would ever drop and there's no objective to do. Force-a-nature and sodapopper would however definitely keep up in damage. BFB would be excellent aswell due to the free 520 speed. All the secondaries would be workable, even the pistols could play a decent role. He would still be mostly forgotten and gone, however.
[b]Soldier[/b] would have a hard time. Slow-ass reloading on the rocketlaunchers is a massive curse. He could still be an acceptable crowder however, and the banners are always welcome.
[b]Pyro[/b] would remain the king of tanks, aswell as the king of melee crowds (bat scouts, demoknights, spies, etc). Assuming he doesn't get targeted often, he would also remain a big player against giants (especially with backburner). Phlog would specialize against tanks like usual, and airblast could still terminate movement-based robots. Getting out of the frontlines alive however would probably be extremely tricky.
[b]Demo[/b] would be almost the same, except putting out dps alot slower and reloading all the time. Crank dat stickylauncher. He's the only class who could handle medic crowds, he is essential.
[b]Heavy[/b] remains exactly the same, except he gotta be careful with his health. Combine with medic for best potential.
[b]Engineer[/b] would have to revisit his dispenser strategy due to no range. His buildings would be extremely weak aswell, and you would have to be extremely careful to move your sentry around at the last second. Wrangler/Circuit becomes an even-bigger player and gunslinger is not entirely out of the picture. Using ranger + wrangler would be the only way to seriously tank big damage. No metal would however be extremely annoying.
[b]Medic[/b] would become very hard to play again, just like before. Make use of the ubersaw on strategic targets and prepare for a ride! Reviving probably means the medic would become the legit meta in this tour, but no shield/resis means he would have to hide from lines-of-sight all the time.
[b]Sniper[/b] would suffer so incredibly much. Without explosives, he would need to quickscope everything individually for a puny 150 damage, and this is assuming the player doesn't miss alot. Sniper would still be valuable however against heavy/medbot pairs aswell as sniperbots, assuming they come one at a time.
[b]Spy[/b] would remain alright. Having no speed definitely hurts overall performance, and the lack of massive backstab damage is a big downside. There is still great potential however, they can still stay in the back and aggro giants, stab and sap + circle around a giant, 1shot any common robot (including rapids, samurais and steelies) and easily clear out engis.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;45037707]I've been thinking alot about the consequences of a new tour with [b]zero money[/b] (no upgrades).
This is what I have concluded :
[/QUOTE]
Good evening, Hale. You may be wondering why your mercenaries are suddenly falling short to my robots. Well, as much of a genius as i am, i found out oil is a better energy source than giant wads of cash. So enjoy what you have, because we'll now be attacking 3 other inconspicuous mannco buildings in slow wave like formats.
People who can't co-operate should be kicked instantly.
[editline]9th June 2014[/editline]
Wave 4 Empire Escalation, we got Giant Scouts and I told Engineer to place it in the middle of the bridge, he keeps placing it next to the railing. I got fed up and switch to Engineer just to show him how, but he told me to shut up and saying it's just a game. We failed the round, and everyone voted him off.
WHY DID YOU KILL IT!!!?? :(
I wanted to see what would happen if it capped.
i fucked up.
he had the bomb defense on and I thought 195 wouldn't kill it.
I just wanted to push it. goddamn. D:
Would anyone like to play Boot Camp? I'm bored.
hmph
they changed the eureka presumably for mvm.
but i'm not sure. The downsides are massive, even with stock wrench you cannot outrepair say, a giant heavy. With eureka there's almost no point trying.
Re-upgrading your dispenser that a robot magically 1-shots because it gets stuck on it will also be a huge chore.
I actually got used to the old eureka by putting my sentry on the robot paths, maximizing sentrybuster effect. now i'm sad :C
[QUOTE=Hell-met;45076327]hmph
they changed the eureka presumably for mvm.
but i'm not sure. The downsides are massive, even with stock wrench you cannot outrepair say, a giant heavy. With eureka there's almost no point trying.
Re-upgrading your dispenser that a robot magically 1-shots because it gets stuck on it will also be a huge chore.
I actually got used to the old eureka by putting my sentry on the robot paths, maximizing sentrybuster effect. now i'm sad :C[/QUOTE]
teleporter sharing, you can respawn and immediately tele
or if you need to upgrade you can tele back to spawn
if you upgrade building health and attack speed and your team isnt shit you probably wont find yourself 1v1ing a giant heavy too often to matter
I just completed a mann up match using EE and i found myself moving around much more constantly, although my buildings were also usually at 95% health most of the time because i wouldnt bother to go fix
overall it can effect gameplay but it's only good in the hands of a good player, not much insentive over stock wrench other than mobility
neat little update
common bomb carriers now have a health notification just like giants
[thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvm/update.jpg[/thumb]
useful for steelies and samurais
[QUOTE=Hell-met;45077926]neat little update
common bomb carriers now have a health notification just like giants
[thumb]http://www.sourceop.com/hell-met/TF2/mvm/update.jpg[/thumb]
useful for steelies and samurais[/QUOTE]
Well that is useful
no wait, it appears to all robots who have a unusual health pool
i think?
this is really weird.
The possibility of an upcoming radial taunt menu has me excited. It would be neat to hifive and such during mvm without being scolded for having no canteen.
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