Stuff that Annoys you in TF2: bind m1 say "( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)" edition - Games

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;48603317]Damage spread was the reason that the Loch and Machina would sometimes 1-shot 125 and 175 classes respectively. It's the reason why light classes could survive 2 melees to the face and walk away from it. It's the reason a Heavy could survive 3 grenades to the face . It's the reason why a full-charge bodyshot may not take down a Medic. 10%, as little as it may sound, is enough to break damage thresholds. The difference between 1 and 2 shots is a lot.[/QUOTE] They fixed a 10% damage sprzad but they still didn't fix the ability of randomly making 3 x more damage. Why havent they at the very least gave us the choice by letting us being able to vote to disable it on valve servers?

It's weird that the TF2 team added random crits to prevent stalemates but you can easily solve a stalemate by literally walking closer to the target.The only thing removing crits would do is nerf melees since now you can't go in deep with a melee weapon and hope for a random crit. [editline]3rd September 2015[/editline] Though removing crits would involve having to re-balance a lot of weapons that had NRC as a nerf like the Cow Mangler and Bushwacka.

At the same time it would make weapons like the half-zatoichi faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar less annoying.

[QUOTE=Anderan;48605049]At the same time it would make weapons like the half-zatoichi faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar less annoying.[/QUOTE] -snip because people can't read past this part- [editline]Edited:[/editline] Bad choice of words since I forgot that people play demoknight outside of medieval mode as well, the downside obviously won't affect them either. Better would be "Half-Zatoichi is somewhat balanced in normal demo loadouts that also rely on grenades and stickies, but Zatoichi demoknight could use a nerf". Strange how Eyelander and Persian Persuader have no random crits but a weapon like Half-Zatoichi that relies on continous kills has them.

[QUOTE=Frosty_Avo;48605096]Half-Zatoichi is [B]somewhat balanced[/B] in normal maps but the downside has zero effect in medieval mode. There's nothing worse than getting your whole team killed by a single infinitely critting Tide Turner + Zatoichi demoknight.[/QUOTE] No, fucking isn't. There's hardly a worse feeling when playing as a Medic with almost full uber when that dipshit charges, misses the crit swing just to get random crit anyway and get an undeserved kill on you. Any weapon that rewards for kill should have no random crits automatically (ignoring the fact that random crits should not exist at all)

[QUOTE=Frosty_Avo;48605096]Half-Zatoichi is somewhat balanced in normal maps but the downside has zero effect in medieval mode. There's nothing worse than getting your whole team killed by a single infinitely critting Tide Turner + Zatoichi demoknight.[/QUOTE] It's not even remotely balanced in any map. Any time shields are allowed, it's overpowered. Especially with the splendid screen/tide turner, with their guaranteed bash crit.

*crit* full health *crit* full health *crit* full health I think you get the idea. Though I agree it's less annoying on non-demoknight loadouts.

Half Zatoichi tide turner boots is better. Literally endless Crits and health restores.

katana is beyond stupid because its users completely rely on rcrits in mind like everything they plan is based around getting a rcrit if they only had regular hits (like eyelander / persuader) they would endlessly get shit upon

Personally, I think that random crits should be restricted to melee weapons by default. They're just kinda annoying on guns, but they're an integral part of the way melees, and especially melee unlocks, are balanced. Also no crits for the Half Zatoichi because [I]Jesus Christ.[/I]

Half Zatoichi makes its "high risk high reward" into a "no risk big reward" as soon as it gets into a Demoknight since it deals stock damage, it has random crits (+ shield bash + crit) and full health without penalties. When they did various changes to the Concheror and Kunai, i was praying for this stupid katana, but i guess they don't find it a necessity for no reason.

[QUOTE=Sweater;48606532]Half Zatoichi makes its "high risk high reward" into a "no risk big reward" as soon as it gets into a Demoknight since it deals stock damage, it has random crits (+ shield bash + crit) and full health without penalties. When they did various changes to the Concheror and Kunai, i was praying for this stupid katana, but i guess they don't find it a necessity for no reason.[/QUOTE] It's because Soldiers can also equip and use it. Changing it for Demoman changes it for Soldier too. It's not that simple, changes with Katana will most likely require double the playtesting.

I hate the idea of demoknights in general The way the hitbox appears before the janky swing animation happens on swords, the irritating charge sound, the 5 thousand resistances and buffs he gets from a shield no bigger than his forearm It was a bad idea, they turned a cool, defensive explosives class in to hurr durr swing my melee weapon around for free health It does make it all the more satisfying to kill one of them though

[QUOTE=_charon;48606454]Personally, I think that random crits should be restricted to melee weapons by default. They're just kinda annoying on guns, but they're an integral part of the way melees, and especially melee unlocks, are balanced. Also no crits for the Half Zatoichi because [I]Jesus Christ.[/I][/QUOTE] it's still dumb on melee weapons. when a regular 65 damage hit turns into a memorable, wowtastic rare event over a crit, then something is designed wrong. At this point everybody expects a crit just about every single strike and both parties end up surprised when it doesn't.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;48606573]it's still dumb on melee weapons. when a regular 65 damage hit turns into a memorable, wowtastic rare event over a crit, then something is designed wrong. At this point everybody expects a crit just about every single strike and both parties end up surprised when it doesn't.[/QUOTE] Using melees is a gamble. Their range sucks, especially with TF2's wonderful hit registration, and their DPS isn't comparable to anyone's primary weapon unless they get a random crit. When you pull out your melee, you're gambling that you'll get that 195/105 damage in one hit and kill the enemy instantly, or else you're dead. The downside to a lot of utility melees is that they lack random crits, which is the only thing making melee a viable source of damage for non-Demoknight, non-Spy classes. edit: and playing well with your other weapons increases your chance of a crit, so while it's random, it is predictable someone who has been doing well is more likely to crit you, don't let them melee you would be cool if there was some sort of indicator when someone hit the max crit rate; lightning builds around their weapons as they increase it or something

I wish valve never created the demoknight. I would much rather have more sticky launchers and grenade launchers than shields and swords

[QUOTE=Whyt546;48606707]I wish valve never created the demoknight. I would much rather have more sticky launchers and grenade launchers than shields and swords[/QUOTE] tbh I don't think not having Demoknight would have increased how many grenade and sticky launchers we've gotten. Both are hard to design for because their only weakness is Demoman's inherent weakness at close and long range. Either you create totally new stuff like the Loose Cannon that's harder to balance, or you get a lot of mediocre, crutchy, or overpowered crap based on the stock weapons like the Loch'n'Load. Also Demoknight is stupid fun, though it would be a thousand times better if melee hit registration made any sense.

[QUOTE=_charon;48606619]Using melees is a gamble. Their range sucks, especially with TF2's wonderful hit registration, and their DPS isn't comparable to anyone's primary weapon unless they get a random crit. When you pull out your melee, you're gambling that you'll get that 195/105 damage in one hit and kill the enemy instantly, or else you're dead. The downside to a lot of utility melees is that they lack random crits, which is the only thing making melee a viable source of damage for non-Demoknight, non-Spy classes. edit: and playing well with your other weapons increases your chance of a crit, so while it's random, it is predictable someone who has been doing well is more likely to crit you, don't let them melee you would be cool if there was some sort of indicator when someone hit the max crit rate; lightning builds around their weapons as they increase it or something[/QUOTE] except it's not meant to be a gamble. That's the problem. Everyone wants stock melee to have a "role!" and be given praise for drawing it out, but in the end they're just a panic tool. They're just "there" so you don't run around in T-pose when out of ammo. Unlocks changed this with passive benefits, but we're talking stock here. Melees fill perfectly their original job even without having the 3x damage : 1. Always available on the run, never needs to reload or prepare beforehand 2. Does respectable damage that can 2-shot alot of classes if unaware 3. Nearly doesn't require aim. Incredibly easy to use for any type of player Of course you're gonna get destroyed if you use it in ordinary encounters, that's how it's meant to be. They're shooting guns at you, and you have a shovel. You're supposed to lose. If you really want to make use of it then you gotta shape the encounter so you're extremely close and they're really hurt. That's the point. In virtually all shooters. Would you take on a shambler with an axe or an ichthyosaur with a crowbar? No! (okay it's not entirely the same but you get the point)

On all shields: -Disable random crits on your melee weapon. Fixed. :eng101:

The way I see it: Half Zatoichi is the rule of cool of game balance. Valve wants a weapon in the game that can sustain a ridiculous, picturesque Samurai 1v10, however rare. The Zatoichi does not personally bother me nearly enough for me to want that possibility removed from the game. I like the niche it fills and I personally think the [I]vast[/I] majority of the people that complain about it have not tried using it, and that frustration of not knowing how much damage you dealt to the enemy after dying inflates this further.

[QUOTE=Untailygean;48607107]On all shields: -Disable random crits on your melee weapon. Fixed. :eng101:[/QUOTE] How about just Zaitochi not having crits when equipped with a shield? Doesn't affect Soldier then

[QUOTE=QUILTBAG;48607899]How about just Zaitochi not having crits when equipped with a shield? Doesn't affect Soldier then[/QUOTE] Sounds like something Valve would never do. They've always avoided making weapon X have a downside that is in effect only when paired with a specific weapon/item Y like the plague. I do agree that random crits on the Zatoichi are really lame when used with a shield (especially the Turner), plus they're the absolute scourge of Medieval mode, yet removing them would make the item even worse of a choice for a sticky Demo or a Soldier. I just can't see Valve making such an arbitrary and inconsistent balance change, though.

[QUOTE=QUILTBAG;48607899]How about just Zaitochi not having crits when equipped with a shield? Doesn't affect Soldier then[/QUOTE] but it won't affect soldier in the first place?

[QUOTE=LittleBabyman;48607998]but it won't affect soldier in the first place?[/QUOTE] The soldier can equip the Half Zatoichi.

I specifically remember there was one particularly terrifying demoknight I encountered on a pub once, and I'm still trying to figure out how he could do what he did. He had half-zatoichi and I'm not sure what shield he was using but the guy essentially went around killing our team with nothing but crits every round, which as far as I can tell doesn't seem possible because he wasn't kritz'd by any medics or minicrit buffed by any soldiers. Was he a hacker or something? It was literally so bad that our entire team could not stop him because this demoknight was criting everyone with the half-zatoichi so rapidly that all focus on him still didn't do enough damage to take him down most of the time. Is there some kind of secret all-crit loadout combo with demoknights or something? What's the deal with that crazy sword?

[QUOTE=Erfly;48608032]The soldier can equip the Half Zatoichi.[/QUOTE] when you don't get random crits when equipping shields?

I really think that Half-Zatoichi should get a 'no random crits when equipped with shields' pentalty. When I play Soldier the katana is my melee of choice most of the time but I never run it on Demoman. I like it on Soldier because I think that getting back to full health on a successful kill as a 200hp class that can buff his teammates and himself with banners is exceptionally rewarding. However when I go for a kill with it I often find myself in need for random crits as I would really need to secure the kill as fast as possible. Many times have I had a teammate steal my kill when the target was left at <15 health because one normal melee hit wasn't enough to kill him or the target blew himself up on me before I got the final hit. And being stuck in melee as Soldier can be excrutiating - you can't rocket jump and you have the second lowest movement speed of all classes in the game so you will be an easy kill for most players. Oftentimes a lucky crit kill on an unsuspecting player will be the only way to break the binding without going back all the way to spawn. I don't think that disabling random crits on all melees when equipping a shield is the right option because shields have a considerable charge time when you don't use the Booties, Persuader, Tide-Turner or Claid and I don't want to see all other Demoman melees that normally have random crits become penalized because of one weapon.

i am not participating in this conversation but, littlebabyman, he's saying that if you only removed crits from shield bearers, the soldier would not be affected. the soldier would be affected if you removed crits entirely.

[QUOTE=Untailygean;48607107]On all shields: -Disable random crits on your melee weapon. Fixed. :eng101:[/QUOTE] Could those who disagree elaborate? I don't see any problem with this, every weapon that forces crits have a "No random crit" attribute, so adding it to shield would only make sense. Plus most of the swords don't have random crits anyway.

[QUOTE=Untailygean;48608069]Could those who disagree elaborate? I don't see any problem with this, every weapon that forces crits have a "No random crit" attribute, so adding it to shield would only make sense. Plus most of the swords don't have random crits anyway.[/QUOTE] Sounds good to me to be honest - like you said, most of the swords and the like have no random crits on them anyway, and it also elegantly solves the issues with the Zatoichi, both in normal play and Medieval (not that that mode matters balance-wise, but Demoknights have become ridiculously OP there and it just shits on the fun and variety of the gamemode even as a joke passtime one). Even if it's obviously not OP since it can be easily stopped by hitscan and knockback weapons and Sentries, there's something exceptionally dumb and lame about the current Booties + Shield + Zatoichi Demoknights that use the extra move speed buff and the resistances to just charge and run into people head on and proceed to chop them up with multiple random crits in a row. Feels lame getting killed by a katana-wielding kamikaze maniac that charges into me, misses his charge and initial swing, and than proceeds to walk into me with the extra move speed, absorbing damage like a sponge and than killing me with a random Zatoichi crit when he has like 25 hp left. Then he's back to a full 200 hp and can carry on literally charging and running into another target and potentially overhelm it simply due to damage resists and a full health refill on every kill. Demoknights should hit their charge-boosted minicrit/crit swings, not get lucky with a subsequent random katana crit that brings them back to full health and rewards them for their charge miss.