Stuff that Annoys you in TF2: bind m1 say "( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)" edition - Games

[QUOTE=Metaru;47876750]Yeah, like that axe covered in barb wire dealing less damage if you were not on fire.[/QUOTE] Well, one could argue that it looks like a makeshift weapon, or at least a pretty worn out Axe; [I]it could remotely[/I] make sense that the edge might be less sharp than the one of a brand new fireaxe (even though the Vanilla Axe does have a somewhat worn out look aswell).

[QUOTE=Snowshoe;47876933]From the classless update: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/hkAn4jJ.png[/IMG] Maybe if Valve reverts this, it will stop the dreaded lenny faces?[/QUOTE] It would look something like Rekd kid (□□□□□)

[QUOTE=PijamaFisH;47876938]Well, one could argue that it looks like a makeshift weapon, or at least a pretty worn out Axe; [I]it could remotely[/I] make sense that the edge might be less sharp than the one of a brand new fireaxe (even though the Vanilla Axe does have a somewhat worn out look aswell).[/QUOTE] And the rake does more damage from some reason

[QUOTE=Metaru;47876750]Yeah, like that axe covered in barb wire dealing less damage if you were not on fire.[/QUOTE] i had no idea the axtinguisher was a launch day weapon

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;47879325]i had no idea the axtinguisher was a launch day weapon[/QUOTE] yeah it was pyro update launch day weapon

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;47879325]i had no idea the axtinguisher was a launch day weapon[/QUOTE] It still came out before hats were added

You know what I've found annoying about fighting Pyros? Well, besides the Degreaser which needs to be nerfed to high hell. It's really difficult to aim at a Pyro you can't see because his flamethrower's particles block him from view. This applies especially to playing Sniper.

Soldiers who use the beggars bazooka as an infinite clip rocket launcher Edit: What do you know, now on the server I'm playing on there is a bottomless clip soldier being pocketed by a quickfix and a kritzkrieg medic..

[QUOTE=Brobattington;47879557]You know what I've found annoying about fighting Pyros? Well, besides the Degreaser which needs to be nerfed to high hell. It's really difficult to aim at a Pyro you can't see because his flamethrower's particles block him from view. This applies especially to playing Sniper.[/QUOTE] Degreaser doesnt need a nerf, airstall needs to be fixed. I admit there are some OP or poorly designed weapons like Loch, and BFB but alot of the time I think people choose to blame the weapon instead of admitting they were outplayed. For example people who bitch about the sticky launcher when they only play on 32 player instant respawn dustbowl, or people bitching about spy when they have there volume at a minimum and rarely turn around. When you die to anything try to think of why instead of screaming to nerf it. If the reason is really stupid like I jumped when he had the reserve shooter than its probably broken on some level.

The day degreaser gets reworked, that day ill be a happy Human being. In the meantime, fuck the degreaser.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;47880194]Degreaser doesnt need a nerf,[/QUOTE] It does if you compare it to the Flamethrower. Its downsides are almost meaningless Pyro in general needs to be reworked and be better but the Degreaser relative to the class it's on is stupid broken and also really annoying

[QUOTE=Bynine;47880604]It does if you compare it to the Flamethrower. Its downsides are almost meaningless Pyro in general needs to be reworked and be better but the Degreaser relative to the class it's on is stupid broken and also really annoying[/QUOTE] Even with degreaser pyros worse than every other class besides spy. Instead of just making him garbage why dont we focus on improving him to be on par with the other classes.

[QUOTE=Bynine;47880604] Pyro in general needs to be reworked and be better [/QUOTE]

I keep reading the whole "pyro needs to be reworked" argument, but hardly ever someone can state how it should be reworked in a way that it doesnt turn into something completely different. Class-wise, the pyro's perks are its health pool, speed and afterburn inmunity, nothing else.

[QUOTE=Metaru;47881223]I keep reading the whole "pyro needs to be reworked" argument, but hardly ever someone can state how it should be reworked in a way that it doesnt turn into something completely different. Class-wise, the pyro's perks are its health pool, speed and afterburn inmunity, nothing else.[/QUOTE] Do you want me to dig up my arguments again?

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;47881018]Even with degreaser pyros worse than every other class besides spy. Instead of just making him garbage why dont we focus on improving him to be on par with the other classes.[/QUOTE] maybe you could stop basing your arguments like every single server is overflowing with top competitive skill level. pyro holds out nicely regardless of its flaws. I would spare the word "garbage" for the likes of a rocketjumper soldier. Not the pyro.

If you can sumarize them, yes. But if its about how pyro deals with enemies in combat, might as well rework how fire damage is handled ingame instead. Id rather have flamethowers deal increased fire damage over time, if not players taking increased fire damage the longer they're exposed to it. But then again, pyro is just about Fine as it is now. The learning curve to maximize the class's potential is rather tricky though.

You know what I find arguably worse than the Degreaser? The childish, most likely unusual wearing, fanbrat Degreaser mains that try to defend it and shoot down everyone else's arguements of it being the unbalanced piece of shit that it is.

[QUOTE=Dr. Kyuros;47881358]You know what I find arguably worse than the Degreaser? The childish, most likely unusual wearing, fanbrat Degreaser mains that try to defend it and shoot down everyone else's arguements of it being the unbalanced piece of shit that it is.[/QUOTE] They wouldn't exist if the Degreaser was a balanced weapon

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;47881229]Do you want me to dig up my arguments again?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Psychopath12;47649032]The weapon is very clearly superior to its counterparts. The entire reason why Pyros tend to rely on airblast combos is because of the unreliable nature of the flamethrowers. The airblast is the key component for the combos because it locks an opponent into a predictable arc for an easy followup. Go ahead, try to combo without once touching M2, it's quite difficult. And you'll notice a substantial dropoff in people actually complaining about crit combos. Fix the flamethrowers and players would no longer need to rely on these combos as heavily, but the Degreaser is primarily utilized for the sole purpose of comboing. The weapon would still function just fine as an anti-heckling tool to ensure that Pyro practically always has the right weapon out. Losing player knockback would address this, yes, but for a majority of players it may as well be tantamount to removing the weapon (you'd notice that it'd primarily be the ones that rely too heavily on stunlock combos and don't bother trying to do range heckling). Address the core issues first, then decide on how the Degreaser should be changed afterward. Whether it's a complete overhaul or a minor adjustment that has a major impact is beyond the scope of what we can foretell.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Psychopath12;47743604]Pyro is crit-based now because the class has such low potential at its core. Don't try to ignore the simple facts -- the flamethrower is designed to be easy to use. But the inherent problem lies in that design nuance ignoring that the flamethrower is arbitrarily more-difficult to use well than any other weapon. The particles are inconsistent with its visuals, providing mixed feedback to the user and people being attacked. While there is a finesse in leading a player properly with the flamethrower in order to maximize damage, the unreliable nature tends to coerce players into using what they see as more-consistent. Not to mention that it's a streaming damage, if you want to achieve that ~150 DPS it has to be dealt over the course of a full second, contrast with the shotgun, which does ~90 DPH, the time it'd take to do comparable damage to the flamethrower is cut down significantly because it gets a head start on raw damage output. Enter compression blast, it steals all player momentum and boops them into the air in a static trajectory every single time regardless of what angle you hit them from. It's consistent and it's reliable to follow-up on. Why bother using the inconsistent 150 DPS when you can use a near-guaranteed high-DPH followup? The lack of any consistency with physics is what makes it have a low barrier for entry, and that's why the Pyro's crit-combos are loathed so harshly. The lack of damage potential on the flamethrower is why the flamethrower gets so underused and why crit-based combos are so relied upon. It makes sense for a low-effort weapon to get low-output results, but that's a horrible way to make the class near-useless at higher skill echelons. What I'd want to see is the Flamethrower being more-consistent in its own range, reward players who can lead their targets well by giving them more damage potential, but harshly punish those who aim poorly with the pitiable damage that we're used to (on top of the fact that they're missing). How they change this at a functional level can be done in several ways. And no specific way is the most-superior way to do it. One of my personal takes would be to have the cone of particles be much more focused directly in the center with a weight to them, keep the cone shape consistent with its current spread, and manipulate the damage formulas a tad. So directly in the center of the stream there would be a much greater concentration of flame particles, rewarding players who can aim properly with frequent more-damaging hits. Then on the edges of the cone there are very few low-damage particles, doing nothing more than a light brush of damage and a 50% shorter-duration afterburn. So hitting people with the high-concentration beam of flames should reasonably do somewhere in the 200 DPS range, but it'd require good prediction skills in order to achieve that. But randomly flailing around will do pitiful amounts of damage and will offer [i]lesser[/i] afterburn duration for aiming so poorly. Of course, I'd also like to see this combined with what I have in mind for the compression blast: making it function as knockback, and not a stun. Simple as that, if you want to keep someone still you'd need to position yourself properly around them. It'd make airblast combos require more thought to achieve, but being paired with my above changes would make crit combos less of a requirement and more of an additional tool for when the flamethrower doesn't cut the mustard.[/QUOTE] Flame particles too inconsistent to be reliable, airblast implemented too badly to be fair.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;47881249]maybe you could stop basing your arguments like every single server is overflowing with top competitive skill level. pyro holds out nicely regardless of its flaws. I would spare the word "garbage" for the likes of a rocketjumper soldier. Not the pyro.[/QUOTE] You dont have to be at top levels to know that pyro is weaker than most combat classes. Sorry I dont assume every server is full of kindergartners

Though projectile reflection as it is now is immensely satisfying, and in my opinion should not be changed. Airblasting people should be akin to explosive knockback (as in you can airstrafe out of it, and you really have to aim to use it well) instead of its own stun, and we've been over this. Now, how do we nerf the degreaser? As it stands, the Degreaser is: +65% faster weapon switch -10% damage penalty -25% afterburn damage penalty We can agree that the downsides really have no effect since this weapon is only used for combos. Let's first address a few issues with Flamethrowers in general, mentioned above: [QUOTE=Psychopath12;47743604]The particles are inconsistent with its visuals.[/QUOTE] This should be at least somewhat simple to fix, and I agree would make the weapon much easier to use (to be honest if the particles were completely consistent with their visuals, people would get much angrier at "wm1 pyros" since they would now effectively be able to use the full damage potential of the weapon at close range.) [QUOTE=Psychopath12;47743604] What I'd want to see is the Flamethrower being more-consistent in its own range, reward players who can lead their targets well by giving them more damage potential, but harshly punish those who aim poorly with the pitiable damage that we're used to (on top of the fact that they're missing). How they change this at a functional level can be done in several ways. And no specific way is the most-superior way to do it. One of my personal takes would be to have the cone of particles be much more focused directly in the center with a weight to them, keep the cone shape consistent with its current spread, and manipulate the damage formulas a tad. So directly in the center of the stream there would be a much greater concentration of flame particles, rewarding players who can aim properly with frequent more-damaging hits. Then on the edges of the cone there are very few low-damage particles, doing nothing more than a light brush of damage and a 50% shorter-duration afterburn. So hitting people with the high-concentration beam of flames should reasonably do somewhere in the 200 DPS range, but it'd require good prediction skills in order to achieve that. But randomly flailing around will do pitiful amounts of damage and will offer [i]lesser[/i] afterburn duration for aiming so poorly.[/QUOTE] This is basically perfect, and would raise the skillcap for pyro in a way that would be satisfying. [QUOTE=Psychopath12;47743604]Of course, I'd also like to see this combined with what I have in mind for the compression blast: making it function as knockback, and not a stun. Simple as that, if you want to keep someone still you'd need to position yourself properly around them. It'd make airblast combos require more thought to achieve, but being paired with my above changes would make crit combos less of a requirement and more of an additional tool for when the flamethrower doesn't cut the mustard.[/QUOTE] basically what I said above Now, to deal with the Degreaser. Include all the changes above, making airblast and fire damage require thought and have an actual skillcap. +45% faster weapon switch +15% airblast force (the faster away something moves, the harder it is to hit, so a downside and an upside) -30% fire cone size (this means damage is reduced significantly unless you have amazing aim, also note this change makes sense due to the design of the weapon physically) -15% airblast accuracy (players and projectiles move just slightly off the mark for additional unpredictability requiring greater aiming skill) So basically, the weapon now requires you to aim quickly while using combos and aim better if you actually use fire. If you're bad at aiming, the downsides of this weapon will break your ability to use it. If your aim is perfect, you'll do great with it.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;47881698]You dont have to be at top levels to know that pyro is weaker than most combat classes. Sorry I dont assume every server is full of kindergartners[/QUOTE] you still make it sound like it gets hard countered by everything and is incapable of getting anything done even with the ezmode degreaser.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;47881877]you still make it sound like it gets hard countered by everything and is incapable of getting anything done even with the ezmode degreaser.[/QUOTE] Degreaser pyro isnt easier than shooting feet as soldier or shooting bodies as scout, air stalls the only problem and degreaser feeds into it, but I think you should not let your personal bias cloud your judgment.

where's my bias at? I wouldn't defend my "main" when it's being pitied and asked for buffs. Normally it's the other way around.

If you just removed the degreaser, pyro would be almost non viable. Almost everything he does relies on that one weapon alone. A shame too, but Pyro needs a complete overhaul for me not to hate him.

[QUOTE=Oizen;47882891]If you just removed the degreaser, pyro would be almost non viable. Almost everything he does relies on that one weapon alone. A shame too, but Pyro needs a complete overhaul for me not to hate him.[/QUOTE] that explains how I do so well without it stockscorchscratch for life

[QUOTE=Blackavar;47882989]that explains how I do so well without it stockscorchscratch for life[/QUOTE] While Im glad that at least somone isnt using it, [url=https://tf2stats.net/weapons/]Most people are[/url] Its practically a flat upgrade to his stock weapon, and also enables most of his other weapons.

Oh yeah btw as long as we're on the subject the Powerjack is just as bad, if not worse than, the Degreaser in terms to eclipsing all of his alternatives. The downside is minor and the upsides are gargantuan, and I really don't see the point in using anything else, besides maybe the Homewrecker if you're defending last and there's nowhere to run to

Perhaps, but the Powerjack provides that much needed burst of speed for flanking, relocating and moving around the map that a short-range class focused on getting close and trying to get a drop on enemies probably needed. Not saying the class should have the PJ's move speed at stock level, I actually like the idea of having to hold out a melee to get the extra speed. Makes it just risky and clumsy enough (especially w/o the Degreser's switch bonus) to not be used all the time, but rather with good judgement (apart from rollouts, where it's a no brainer). I guess the Degreaser should be put in line with stock a bit more, but whenever I see calls to also nerf stuff like the PJ or flares [I]without[/I] acknowledging that you'd probably need to rework the class considerably, it really does grind my gears.