[QUOTE=Mockingbird;53027780]I feel like those weapons don't fit the design of the other classes at all. Are there so few options in TF2 loadouts that we need this kitchen sink approach?[/QUOTE]
What Hell-met said, and also, yes, there are.
[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;53027813]It's been so long since the War update I don't think anyone will really care if the demo gets the gunboats.[/QUOTE]
gunboats in sixes...I don't know if I should drool in anticipation or reel back in horror at the idea of Demos with even more mobility and no pipes at all...
I don't want to derail...BUT PREPARE FOR DOOM! Go to gmod forums, go to programming forums, this will be your destiny! And there's no come back
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53027804]let's see
design for shotguns -> shoot at stuff
design for pistols -> shoot at stuff. As for winger, allow engineer to have a little more fun without relying on wrangler jumps
design for gunboats -> explosive jumps! what additional classes can explosive jump? demo and pyro
design for mantreads -> resist baked knockbacks, damage knockback and do stomps for the lols. demo and scout have the means to get high ground to stomp shit, and people have been wanting heavy to be a brickwall for ages.
design for paintrain -> allow power classes to double-cap. that's pyro too.
design for milk -> throw a jar to support your friends. perfect for sniper
As for the sniper packs on heavy, it just happens that the new razorback is 100% perfectly balanced for him now. Danger Shield would lessen the JI pyro rape and the Cozy Camper's no aiming flinch only works on weapons that have a "deployed state", which other than rifles happens to be miniguns too.
so nah, you're just assuming that negative nancy role you display at every opportunity.[/QUOTE]
I think you just see design in a less specific sense than me. For example, I would not apply one description to the design of all shotguns.
Just because we disagree you don't need to call me names.
[QUOTE=gonzalolog;53027861]I don't want to derail...BUT PREPARE FOR DOOM! Go to gmod forums, go to programming forums, this will be your destiny! And there's no come back[/QUOTE]
cant find what youre talking about
Vbulleting got deprecated, fp is building a new one, today programming forum just got updated, I recommend you guys to understand how to migrate accounts before this forum gets converted too and everyone gets in panic
Just go into programming or gmod developer section, rust also works too
Or you could just link it, too.
[url]https://forum.facepunch.com/forum[/url]
the reserve shooter being given to Pyro was only a problem because the weapon was already overpowered in its original design, it sure took skill to destroy anyone jumping, especially scouts, and completely deny any explosive jumping class
the argument was always was that it took skill to pop someone in the air as soldier, and that's irrelevant in the weapon's original design as that never was the intended use, it became more of a problem after it was given to Pyro because that's one more way for the weapon to be annoying
it was a mistake because that's another class having access to an OP weapon, not because it wasn't design for it, because that design was terrible both ways
If reserve shooter had been
(+) 20% faster deploy speed
(-) 33% reduced clip size
it would've been perfectly fine, on every class that can use a shotgun
edit: now that I think of it, this is basically a simpler version of what the panic attack is now
[QUOTE=gonzalolog;53027885]Vbulleting got deprecated, fp is building a new one, today programming forum just got updated, I recommend you guys to understand how to migrate accounts before this forum gets converted too and everyone gets in panic
Just go into programming or gmod developer section, rust also works too[/QUOTE]
i just made a new Contra132 account and posted Spy Did Nothing Wrong so people know it's me
idk though I kinda prefer vbulletin
[QUOTE=Contra132;53027836]gunboats in sixes...I don't know if I should drool in anticipation or reel back in horror at the idea of Demos with even more mobility and no pipes at all...[/QUOTE]
B4nny did make several comments stating Weebooties were a problem when it boosted Demo's movement speed as is. I would presume gunboats on demo replacing demoman's pipes would be the same case... Out of curiousity though, they were mostly disliked due to the the player count being only 6 correct? In smaller games the grenade launcher wasn't as needed as the sticky launcher could more then handle majority of the situations on their own.
[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53027971]B4nny did make several comments stating Weebooties were a problem when it boosted Demo's movement speed as is. I would presume gunboats on demo replacing demoman's pipes would be the same case... Out of curiousity though, they were mostly disliked due to the the player count being only 6 correct? In smaller games the grenade launcher wasn't as needed as the sticky launcher could more then handle majority of the situations on their own.[/QUOTE]
well I don't agree with that at all. anyone shits on demos that only have stickies to defend himself with because they're designed to have no direct hits. Get in his bubble and he can't do anything.
pipes are essential to the well being of demos especially against good players.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53027994]well I don't agree with that at all. anyone shits on demos that only have stickies to defend himself with because they're designed to have no direct hits. Get in his bubble and he can't do anything.
pipes are essential to the well being of demos especially against good players.[/QUOTE]
This is one of the few complaints that I'm still need 100% sure about from competitive players. The question I asked was the only reason I could see it being seen as a problem which is why I asked. Machina being banned and.... I forget the other weapon were of the other ones I had to ask to better understand why it was a problem.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53027948]If reserve shooter had been
(+) 20% faster deploy speed
(-) 33% reduced clip size
it would've been perfectly fine, on every class that can use a shotgun
edit: now that I think of it, this is basically a simpler version of what the panic attack is now[/QUOTE]
That's also generic as all hell and would make a boring redesign. It'd have the same problem Family Business would have if it was on more classes than just the Heavy - boring stat changes do nothing and go against the ideas of sidegrades, because there are no clear, distinct situations in which one weapon would be better than the other, they are either stronger a majority of the time, or weaker a majority of the time. Gunboats and stock Shotgun for Soldier is the go-to example: Gunboats are much more useful for mobility, but take away a reliable secondary weapon, meaning a Soldier that likes hopping around and focusing on rocket attacks will find good use from the Gunboats, but there are clear situations where the shotgun would be more useful, such as against a good Pyro, with a Medic who can heal your rocket jump damage, or somebody on higher ground.
A gun that just has generic "is stronger in X, but is weaker in Y" is boring, and like you said, the idea you have is just a second Panic Attack, which had an original, albeit hard to balance, concept, and is currently too weak to be useful over the stock Shotgun. I'd gladly take the current RS or even previous iterations of the RS over a generic +X stat, -Y stat gun any day of the week.
Ever think we'll see an attack version of MvM? Would give the red robots an actual use.
Id prefer them focusin' on competitive over trying to reinvent the wheel of MvM
[QUOTE=jimbobjoe1234;53028146]Ever think we'll see an attack version of MvM? Would give the red robots an actual use.[/QUOTE]
literally everything is hardcoded for bots to function specifically on the blue team. you change that around and everything crumbles
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53028011]That's also generic as all hell and would make a boring redesign. It'd have the same problem Family Business would have if it was on more classes than just the Heavy - boring stat changes do nothing and go against the ideas of sidegrades, because there are no clear, distinct situations in which one weapon would be better than the other, they are either stronger a majority of the time, or weaker a majority of the time. Gunboats and stock Shotgun for Soldier is the go-to example: Gunboats are much more useful for mobility, but take away a reliable secondary weapon, meaning a Soldier that likes hopping around and focusing on rocket attacks will find good use from the Gunboats, but there are clear situations where the shotgun would be more useful, such as against a good Pyro, with a Medic who can heal your rocket jump damage, or somebody on higher ground.
A gun that just has generic "is stronger in X, but is weaker in Y" is boring, and like you said, the idea you have is just a second Panic Attack, which had an original, albeit hard to balance, concept, and is currently too weak to be useful over the stock Shotgun. I'd gladly take the current RS or even previous iterations of the RS over a generic +X stat, -Y stat gun any day of the week.[/QUOTE]
see, the problem is that the main stat "Mini-crits targets launched airborne by explosions, grapple hooks or rocket packs" is a dumb crit gimmick that's unfun to fight for jumping soldiers and pyros. it and the family business need to be completely reworked (as well as the panic attack) to fit each classes' strengths and weaknesses. honestly I think the shotguns should be for one class each:
panic attack: pyro
reserve shooter: soldier
family business: heavy
and a new shotgun for engineer
[QUOTE=Fluury;53028153]Id prefer them focusin' on competitive over trying to reinvent the wheel of MvM[/QUOTE]
If they manage to get comp right, they sure should move over to MvM, it's a good source of money for them, that hasn't been updated in few years, maybe its about time but just after comp overhaul.
Will jill find this forum after it moved though
he hasn't posted the entire year afterall
Is there some way to "translate" mouse sensitivity between resolutions or it doesn't matter?
It probably shouldnt matter but it really feels a lot slower
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53028194]see, the problem is that the main stat "Mini-crits targets launched airborne by explosions, grapple hooks or rocket packs" is a dumb crit gimmick that's unfun to fight for jumping soldiers and pyros.[/QUOTE]
"It's unfun for people facing the weapon" is not nor can not ever be a viable argument. Dying isn't fun in video games either. I guess no more killing in the game? Losing isn't fun for people that lose. I guess we make it so you can only win?
It's why I also think the arguments for old Airblast and Natascha are silly. Being slowed isn't fun? Then avoid the Natascha Heavy or just kill him, he's slow, revved, and doesn't deal as much damage as a regular Heavy, if you can't kill him, there are hundreds of ways to avoid him, or just switch to Sniper/Spy. Being airblasted isn't fun? Then don't be so close to the Pyro. Airblast has an incredibly short range. Sure, there are some valid arguments like the Natascha slow being too strong from a distance (which I'm pretty sure is nerfed), but if all the balance team cared about was what everybody that played game wanted, there'd be no competitive-ness, it'd just be you play, you win. A game has to have unfun parts to be fun. It has to be unfun to lose to be fun to win.
There's a difference between arguments of "It isn't fun because it's imbalanced" and "I don't like it, therefore it isn't imbalanced". I don't like being stabbed by Spies, I think being killed without any way to respond can be silly, especially as a Heavy main, the worst possible situation is being stabbed in the middle of a huge teamfight, but that's the Spy's role as a class, it's what makes him a unique character in an era of video games where at most, cloaked characters can disable other enemy characters. I also don't like the current state of TF2 Sniper, he can one-shot anybody within 4 seconds total, has much less counterplay than Spy especially since every other weapon has damage falloff, and has a skill ceiling that isn't nearly as high as it should be for the amount of damage he does, but there are actual arguments for him being too strong, the Spy is just annoying.
When people mention "fun" in arguments like these, generally they're referring to the sense that your opponents leveraged their superior abilities to defeat you. "Cheap" deaths are frowned upon for a reason, and there are methods game developers can use to mitigate these scenarios. It [I]should[/I] be fun to lose, in a sense; the game shouldn't be discouraging you from playing further due to infuriating losses that aren't predicated on player skill. Game sense and positioning, for example, can only get you so far against Snipers sitting five miles away shutting down critical areas just by looking down a sight line.
in this specific case, the new reserve shooter is far from being "unfun" or skillless whatever. you're just holding on tight to that grudge from the older version. (it's time to let go)
case in point, a while ago everyone would tell me airblastless minicrits would be ""useless"" on pyro. no hypocrisy plz.
I'd really just like new weapons with decent balance, volvo pls
[QUOTE=Cosmic feel;53028367]I'd really just like new weapons with decent balance, volvo pls[/QUOTE]
We just got some four months ago.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53028306]When people mention "fun" in arguments like these, generally they're referring to the sense that your opponents leveraged their superior abilities to defeat you. "Cheap" deaths are frowned upon for a reason, and there are methods game developers can use to mitigate these scenarios. It [I]should[/I] be fun to lose, in a sense; the game shouldn't be discouraging you from playing further due to infuriating losses that aren't predicated on player skill. Game sense and positioning, for example, can only get you so far against Snipers sitting five miles away shutting down critical areas just by looking down a sight line.[/QUOTE]
I already talked about that point, and I re-iterate: there's a difference between "annoying and "unfun", therefore being unbalanced", and "unbalanced therefore unfun". Natascha is annoying, but it isn't unbalanced. Reserve Shooter's current iteration may be annoying to you, but it isn't unbalanced.
Natascha was imbalanced in 2010 when it retarded all aerial momentum and slowed from miles away, yes.
And it was nerfed and is no longer imbalanced, yes.
