but wasn't the only change to the cowmangler the indirect afterburn buff? does that actually make it overpowered now? and did the mantreads buff make it really that powerful?
Is there any way to see their reasoning for some of these? I'm really curious as to why the Dragon's Fury is banned.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53039687]
Atomizer
[/QUOTE]
expected, probably because you can still quickswitch, with the penalty meant to prevent that not doing anything about it
[QUOTE]
Mantreads (same as PBPP)[/QUOTE]
why is that though, what specifically makes it offending, if it's the air control, you're still taking more damage because no gunboats
[QUOTE]
Reserve Shooter[/QUOTE]
unsurprising, always argued that it's OP on soldier but no one listens
[QUOTE]
Dragon's Fury is banned.
[/QUOTE]
[I]why[/I]
[QUOTE=rolfum;53039740]but wasn't the only change to the cowmangler the indirect afterburn buff? does that actually make it overpowered now? and did the mantreads buff make it really that powerful?[/QUOTE]
like, every roamer was using the damn thing as it's basically a straight upgrade to stock now. and apparently mantreads is really good. like, never get hit by an airshot good. though i haven't personally tested mantreads since i haven't really played in 4 months
[editline]9th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Nebrassy;53039758]
[I]why[/I][/QUOTE]
DF was banned because they still need more time to test the thing apparently.
[editline]9th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=VX-79;53039750]Is there any way to see their reasoning for some of these? I'm really curious as to why the Dragon's Fury is banned.[/QUOTE]
From [url]http://etf2l.org/2017/12/26/december-global-whitelist-changes/[/url]
"The weapon itself does have a larger range than the base flamethrower and its projectiles don’t match their visual. The reduced airblast rate is a significant downside and its overall damage does match to the other flamethrowers (Although this might be because they seem bugged). But with the Pyro class already changing a lot as well together with new Pyro weapons that haven’t seen competitive play yet we will keep this banned."
Just reintroduce random crits back into competitive in order to balance the cowmangler.
how does the DF have bad visuals? the fireballs are just really fast. it's not a game flaw if they're just fast. that's just how the gun is designed.
if they wanted better reasons I can supply them:
- getting no health from allied conch/milk
- dealing full damage to fists of steel
- reflectable (no really, flamers absolutely shit on it. fireballs shouldnt be reflectable)
- visually dissapears when reflected
- fireball not going around/through objects (payloads, clipped stairs, "complex" brushes)
- can't combo upon DDS snipers
until flamers are nerfed, it's nowhere as good as them.
Why is the Reserve Shooter banned?
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53039815]Why is the Reserve Shooter banned?[/QUOTE]
Better than stock in most situations, fast swap + mini-crits while airborne mean roamers/Demos/Scouts, all of whom use a lot of air mobility, will easily die to an accurate Pocket running RS.
At least, that's from my limited understanding. RS is REALLY good on Soldier, its downside is basically "has 2 less shots per clip", but its upsides more than make up for it.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53039815]Why is the Reserve Shooter banned?[/QUOTE]
same principle as diamondback. you get rewarded for something that is the base of your class and that's going to happen regardless (punting shit in air with rockets).
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53039815]Why is the Reserve Shooter banned?[/QUOTE]
Because it destroys bombing Soldiers, an attribute perfect for the Pocket. I hope Valve realizes that Reserve Shooter's defining attribute is by its nature too powerful and must be changed. People wanted it changed because of Pyro's airblast, but since Pyro is (was?) barely used in 6s it doesn't make sense that Pyro's usage of the thing is the only reason it was banned.
not sure why iron bomber is even allowed lol, straight upgrade to stock.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53039843]not sure why iron bomber is even allowed lol, straight upgrade to stock.[/QUOTE]
Eh, not really. The blast radius penalty is a bigger deal than you think, for the upside the static, faster exploding rollers. I still think it's the most balanced sidegrade in the game. Demoman is all about putting a ton of damage into the whole of the enemy team as fast as possible, and a big blast radius is helpful in making that happen.
Kind of shocked Mantreads are banned.. Eh...
Nice to see GRU is unbanned. I think Thermal Thruster is too situational for the time being to banned, very easy to counter if you listen for it and know it's coming.
Kind of sad Dragons' Fury is banned seeing as it's not as potentially powerful as flamethrowers, and fairly more skill based then them as well as it's not as forgiving as they are. As it currently stands, I'd actually laugh if Dragon's Fury became unbanned and they ban the rest of pyro's flamethrowers due to how the particles work in the game now and being a super forgiving weapon.
Hot hang is a gimmick weapon that no one will use in competitive which is probably why it's nto banned...
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53039848]Eh, not really. The blast radius penalty is a bigger deal than you think, for the upside the static, faster exploding rollers. I still think it's the most balanced sidegrade in the game. Demoman is all about putting a ton of damage into the whole of the enemy team as fast as possible, and a big blast radius is helpful in making that happen.[/QUOTE]
It really is better than stock.
the small radius loss is not a problem because pipes are most often than not used as defense against single targets. you aren't really trying to do CC with pipebombs, that's what stickies are for.
so if you aim at the feet of your enemies with those static bombs, in case you miss you still plant a landmine at their position, unlike with stock where pipes would just keep rolling away into nothing.
so not only you have reliable rollers, BUT they also blow up faster?. that's a big joke and any good demo uses that, unless they feel like trolling with LnL's easyness.
so the only true loss is spamming at a wall around a corner, but this is a trivial pub-level thing.
"most balanced sidegrade"?? i know you can find better than that
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53039855]It really is better than stock.
the small radius loss is not a problem because pipes are most often than not used as defense against single targets. you aren't really trying to do CC with pipebombs, that's what stickies are for.
so if you aim at the feet of your enemies with those static bombs, in case you miss you still plant a landmine at their position, unlike with stock where pipes would just keep rolling away into nothing.
so not only you have reliable rollers, BUT they also blow up faster?. that's a big joke and any good demo uses that, unless they feel like trolling with LnL's easyness.
so the only true loss is spamming at a wall around a corner, but this is a trivial pub-level thing.
"most balanced sidegrade"?? i know you can find better than that[/QUOTE]
if it's better than stock i'm sure the people that make the whitelists and test these things would have banned the weapon by now.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53039858]if it's better than stock i'm sure the people that make the whitelists and test these things would have banned the weapon by now.[/QUOTE]
Hence my surprise.
there's pretty good reasons to not allow backup or shortstop but yet here they are, so that's very surprising :thinking:
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53039867]Hence my surprise.
there's pretty good reasons to not allow backup or shortstop but yet here they are, so that's very surprising :thinking:[/QUOTE]
sort of the "if nobody runs it it isn't overpowered argument" because i've never watched a 6s game where either of those are used, ever.
That "visuals do not match the projectile" reasoning is such bs, the only party inconvenienced by this is the person actually using the gun. The smallest of obstacles still stop the fireball in its tracks, and I'd trade for a more conservative hitbox that allows precision any day.
Trying to avoid its fireballs based on their visuals is like using the hitscan particles to avoid a scattergun. The df functions way more like a shotgun than a rocket launcher and shouldn't be expected to be counter-able like it.
[QUOTE=VX-79;53039920]That "visuals do not match the projectile" reasoning is such bs, the only party inconvenienced by this is the person actually using the gun. The smallest of obstacles still stop the fireball in its tracks, and I'd trade for a more conservative hitbox that allows precision any day.
Trying to avoid its fireballs based on their visuals is like using the hitscan particles to avoid a scattergun. The df functions way more like a shotgun than a rocket launcher and shouldn't be expected to be counter-able like it.[/QUOTE]
I'd still rather know that if I saw something coming at me that missed it shouldn't hit, similar to a grenade pipe flying toward me, I know where to move to avoid being direct hit.
I blame DF's generous hitbox, plenty of times I've used the thing and I felt shots shouldn't of even hit and yet did.
[QUOTE=X marks it;53039945]I'd still rather know that if I saw something coming at me that missed it shouldn't hit, similar to a grenade pipe flying toward me, I know where to move to avoid being direct hit.
I blame DF's generous hitbox, plenty of times I've used the thing and I felt shots shouldn't of even hit and yet did.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but a 3000 hu/s projectile really has to be predicted, not reacted to. Especially in the short, fixed range the DF has.
Yeah the hitbox is probably bigger than it should be but it's still silly to treat this like anything other than a shotgun that uses projectile properties. That's why I think it being misleading for the person shooting it far outweighs any problem the target has with it.
Anyone interested in an unusual sultan ceremonial (dead presidents)?
Make DF's projectile hitbox as small as the visuals and increase damage to make up for it. Done.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53039967]Make DF's projectile hitbox as small as the visuals and increase damage to make up for it. Done.[/QUOTE]
making it pyro's Direct Hit doesn't solve problems. why spend a ton of effort leading tiny fire boxes when you could just use flamers for same result with less trouble
actually the visuals are pretty huge, not sure what you people are actually refering to.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53039858]if it's better than stock i'm sure the people that make the whitelists and test these things would have banned the weapon by now.[/QUOTE]
That's not how whitelists work.
Things get banned for being exploitable (atomizer, the previous backburner), something with too much influence for a vastly incomparable amount of skill (milk, jarate and countless others) or a complete affront to balanced gameplay (the vaccinator, Sidney sleeper).
Not for being better than stock. The sandvich and crusader's crossbow would have been gone ages ago.
There are plenty of offending items that are statistically [I]worse[/I] than stock, yet are still unbanned (huntsman, phlog), though most of those have been (arguably) designed by overworked chimps and as such don't feature anything resembling usefulness or skill indexing, often the opposite.
[QUOTE=VX-79;53039962]I'm sorry but a 3000 hu/s projectile really has to be predicted, not reacted to. Especially in the short, fixed range the DF has.[/QUOTE]
I'm not even saying it should be reacted to, I'm saying if I stand still or move in a direction staring directly at my opponent and I see that he misses, then it should miss.
A huntsman, sandman ball, guillotine or direct hit. When I see that the thing hit me I know that it hit me, I don't get that with Dragon Fury, I see the thing miss and yet it registers as a hit.
[QUOTE=X marks it;53039997]I'm not even saying it should be reacted to, I'm saying if I stand still or move in a direction staring directly at my opponent and I see that he misses, then it should miss.
A huntsman, sandman ball, guillotine or direct hit. When I see that the thing hit me I know that it hit me, I don't get that with Dragon Fury, I see the thing miss and yet it registers as a hit.[/QUOTE]
As far as pyro primaries go, this is identical with flamers. so in the end valve made that "feeling" pretty consistent in that regard.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53039843]not sure why iron bomber is even allowed lol, straight upgrade to stock.[/QUOTE]
Iron Bomber is the most balanced sidegrade in the entire game and it's upsides and downsides fully depend on the situation which caters from map to map, calling it a straight upgrade is straight out wrong.
EDIT: Why the fuck are the mantreads banned
I never really got imposing player rules on games like this.
Like, I can get it with something like Pokemon, where there's 700+ options to choose from (and you don't want everyone just using the same, proven, objectively "best" setup). But if you're gonna go so far as to ban weapons (as opposed to just letting people play what works/figuring out ways to counter it), why stop there? Why not just mod the game so everything is balanced exactly how the e-sports community wants it? Why not just make it vanilla?
Why not just cut out the middle-man and ban every class that isn't Scout, Soldier, Demo, or Medic?
I dunno, I'm not exactly a competitve TF2 guy, but to me the appeal of TF2 was that it was TF2; I could never get into the e-sports side of the game, just because shit like Heavies and Spies and Engies are passed up in favor of the classes and weapons that play the most like classes and weapons from other games (ie. twitch classes that more or less work in any situation, rather than the more niche/specialist characters). And then that reflects on how the game is balanced; it's super easy to make a Scattergun/Shotgun replacement, but we haven't gotten a new Engie building since his update back in 2010.
That's why I will always like Highlander more than 6v6; it feels more like Team Fortress 2, instead of "generic comp FPS that happens to be taking place in TF2".
[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;53040355](as opposed to just letting people play what works/figuring out ways to counter it)[/QUOTE]
How do you think people came up with the current meta? It's not like somebody suddenly said "shit man let's cut all the classes except scout, solly, demo and med shit's gonna be cooooool" and everybody agreed. Current meta is exactly the result of what you mentioned - figuring out what is generally the best way to play and watch as a competitive game.
People keep bringing this topic up, like somebody spontaneously decided to throw away classes just to shit on utility mains.
[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;53040355]
Why not just cut out the middle-man and ban every class that isn't Scout, Soldier, Demo, or Medic?
[/QUOTE]
Because that ain't the goal of 6v6. You are free to play whatever you want, although it's polite in practice matches to play the meta you'll be facing.
The reason it revolves around those classes, is because they're the only ones viable to be run for a majority of the time. However, games often hinge on those key moments, where say a surprise sniper pick or a heavy or engie-led defense gets you the round. Those classes are objectively better and are picked in those situations, which just aren't all the time.
The standard 6s lineup all game will lose against tactical offclassing. This has been proven time and time again.
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