[QUOTE=Jonii;53042660]Legit curious: What if Heavy's base speed matched Demoman's? How do you guys think his play would shift? Would it be too easy to get into position? Still useless to try and get to mid?[/QUOTE]
Aww hell naw. Scout-speed GRU Heavy?
[QUOTE=Jboby1;53042705]Woah hey Jonii, let's take it one step at a time! If we're gonna talk about speeding up Heavy, we should start at Soldier's speed, since he's the next slowest class.[/QUOTE]
Heavy can't blast across the map and get easy positional advantages by bombing or jumping
[QUOTE=Kincaid1;53042738]Aww hell naw. Scout-speed GRU Heavy?[/QUOTE]
This would be disgusting but I'll leave how to rebalance gru out of this. Maybe have some kind of skill based movement attached or spy speed
[QUOTE=Kincaid1;53042738]Aww hell naw. Scout-speed GRU Heavy?[/QUOTE]
Remember how GRU's speed bonus was capped at 100% when people realized they could pair it with the Bsteak?
Heavy definitely needs a buff, but I don't think upping his movement speed is the place to start. He's a (the) tank class. Make him more tanky. The 20% damage resistance while spun up that Natascha and the Brass had made those weapons at least vaguely viable. Then 5CP comp players whined that the fat man was too tough to kill when he was on mid. I don't think that happened ever in the history of time. Now, even with the slight JI un-nerf, both miniguns are a challenge to use at best. 20% resistance when below 50% HP (AKA when fat man is already dead) is fucking useless.
What if the brass used the reload key (something tubby never needs with his primaries) to toggle an Overwatchesque "hunker" mode, when the 20% damage bonus and 20% resistance kicked in? The rest of the time the brass had Heavy's normal movement speed (while spun up) and always had the slow AF spin up time? If that proved to be blindingly OP, make the "hunker" mechanic take some time to toggle between. Maybe add an overheal/healing penalty? If OW fans screamed "rip off" at the idea of a hunker mechanic for Heavy, I say give him a pair of ass-hugging spandex trousers and be done with it.
Natascha is tougher nut to crack. Most Heavy mains (which is to say, 4 out of the 5 of us) don't like it. I'm basically the only one. [url=https://i.imgur.com/CxHfSoa.png]I hate scouts. I hate demoknights.[/url] No one takes the weapon seriously, but it's banned in comp because it "denies bombers" and makes scouts momentarily less annoying. I don't think Natascha has been OP since ...well, it launched. Once Valve tamed the slow mechanic, it's been UP, but not better than the Brass and HLH. Natascha is the awkward middle child of Heavy's collection. It's not meta like Sasha or Tomis, and not garbage, either. It's intended role is on defense. When thinking of the Caber, I've toyed with the idea of a "bonus damage to X class" mechanic. In the case of the caber, that'd be "1-shots snipers, but not medics." Maybe make Natasha do extra damage to scouts. Comp players would still hate it, but it'd fit in with the weapon's intended role (scaring off Mr. 2x Cap Rate/Intel Stealer.)
If there is one weapon I'd see giving Heavy a speed boost, it'd be the Huo-Long Heater. It's ...the worst minigun. It sucks ass at anything except for pooshing little kart or camping a dispenser like an idiot. The latter is a pointless and the former is only of value when actually on the cart. In Payload, Heavy is only on the cart sometimes and when he is he's seldom alone. The HLH might make a little bit of sense if its movement speed while spun up was greatly reduced. At least that ammo being consumed is going to some purpose.
[QUOTE=Ultravod;53042763]Heavy definitely needs a buff, but I don't think upping his movement speed is the place to start. He's a (the) tank class. Make him more tanky. The 20% damage resistance while spun up that Natascha and the Brass had made those weapons at least vaguely viable. Then 5CP comp players whined that the fat man was too tough to kill when he was on mid. I don't think that happened ever in the history of time. Now, even with the slight JI un-nerf, both miniguns are a challenge to use at best. 20% resistance when below 50% HP (AKA when fat man is already dead) is fucking useless.
What if the brass used the reload key (something tubby never needs with his primaries) to toggle an Overwatchesque "hunker" mode, when the 20% damage bonus and 20% resistance kicked in? The rest of the time the brass had Heavy's normal movement speed (while spun up) and always had the slow AF spin up time? If that proved to be blindingly OP, make the "hunker" mechanic take some time to toggle between. Maybe add an overheal/healing penalty? If OW fans screamed "rip off" at the idea of a hunker mechanic for Heavy, I say give him a pair of ass-hugging spandex trousers and be done with it.
Natascha is tougher nut to crack. Most Heavy mains (which is to say, 4 out of the 5 of us) don't like it. I'm basically the only one. [url=https://i.imgur.com/CxHfSoa.png]I hate scouts. I hate demoknights.[/url] No one takes the weapon seriously, but it's banned in comp because it "denies bombers" and makes scouts momentarily less annoying. I don't think Natascha has been OP since ...well, it launched. Once Valve tamed the slow mechanic, it's been UP, but not better than the Brass and HLH. Natascha is the awkward middle child of Heavy's collection. It's not meta like Sasha or Tomis, and not garbage, either. It's intended role is on defense. When thinking of the Caber, I've toyed with the idea of a "bonus damage to X class" mechanic. In the case of the caber, that'd be "1-shots snipers, but not medics." Maybe make Natasha do extra damage to scouts. Comp players would still hate it, but it'd fit in with the weapon's intended role (scaring off Mr. 2x Cap Rate/Intel Stealer.)
If there is one weapon I'd see giving Heavy a speed boost, it'd be the Huo-Long Heater. It's ...the worst minigun. It sucks ass at anything except for pooshing little kart or camping a dispenser like an idiot. The latter is a pointless and the former is only of value when actually on the cart. In Payload, Heavy is only on the cart sometimes and when he is he's seldom alone. The HLH might make a little bit of sense if its movement speed while spun up was greatly reduced. At least that ammo being consumed is going to some purpose.[/QUOTE]
I still want a minigun I suggested a while ago ( years even ) where when firing he takes reduced damage from the front, maybe a little from the sides, but on the back he takes increased damage and can be dispatched easily if he or his team are not covering it. The idea behind it was a minigun that's ideal for pushing through choke points in a sense. It might need a little reduction to damage output as well as the gun is focusing on tanking damage more then dishing out damage. So that it keeps a more situational purpose and doesn't show potential of being generally better then stock in 90% of situations to where it's not worth running stock any more.
Another thing I want primaries that change heavies playstyle on top of things. That don't funciton like actual miniguns as well. Sort of how the Dragon's Fury doesn't act like a flamethrower at all sort of deal. Something that changes heavy up completely.
I wonder if any new Heavy weapons will have wordplay in the name like the KGB and GRU, can anyone think of more names like that?
As for buffing Heavy, I still stand by all these changes:
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52928717]Yeah, I've written this post a few times. I've made a few adjustments and added some explanation.
- - HEAVY - -
- CORE CLASS CHANGES -
1. Allow Heavy to switch weapons while spinning down. This would allow Heavy, if he needs burst damage , to get to his Shotgun fast enough to not be killed as is the case currently. It would also allow him to reach his Sandvich faster, allowing him to heal the Medic quicker.
2. Allow Heavy to do a little jump while revved. This jump is slightly shorter than the jump Heavy can do while he isn't revved. This would allow Heavy to dodge things that he couldn't before, or at least take less damage from, like rockets, stickybombs, pipes, and Sniper fire.
3. Increase Heavy's base movement speed from 77% to 80%. This would match his movement speed to that of the Soldier, still making Heavy the slowest class in the game, thanks to Soldier's incredible mobility with the Rocket Jump.
4. Increase Heavy's speed-while-revved from 37% to 50%. This would allow Heavy to be more in control of what hurts him from a distance, making Heavy's current situation of "living sentry" less the case.
5. Add a single bullet to the Heavy's Minigun spread, and make it shoot straight down the middle of the crosshair. This will give Heavy more consistency to his damage output.
- PRIMARIES -
At the moment, Natascha is a weak minigun that is unfun to use and unfun to fight. Knockback rage was always fun to use in MvM, and would be useful in games but not necessarily annoying to fight. Since you're being pushed away, you're taking less damage. It would be useful for Heavy in chokepoints and in uber pushes.
--Natascha
(i) On hit: Fills Rage meter.
(i) On RELOAD: Uses Rage. Rage knocks back enemies that are close to you, keeping them in a favorable range. (literally mvm knockback rage)
(-) 30% slower spin-up time
The Brass Beast has been useless most of its lifetime. People seemed to like it when it had a constant 20% damage resistance, so I've brought that back in greater strength, but removed the damage bonus. The weapon in this state allows Heavy to be an actual tank with some greater capability at range. He cannot be overhealed, however, to balance out the halving of the original massive downsides. With Dalokohs and this weapon, he would have 455 effective health, allowing him to survive one Sniper headshot with 5 health, which I think is fine.
--Brass Beast
(+) 25% more accurate
(+) 30% damage resistance while deployed
(-) 25% slower spin-up time
(-) 30% slower move speed while deployed
(-) Cannot be overhealed while active
The Tomislav has been pretty much the only viable minigun unlock since it came out. It's pretty much always been in some way THE minigun to use. My change gives it a bit more purpose. In this case, it allows Heavy to be a much more free-roaming class, instantly ready to attack and ambush but also vulnerable. A completely new class, in a way.
--Tomislav
(+) 15% increased movement speed (passive, like the max health. makes you as fast as Demoman, given Heavy's movement speed is increased to 80% with the rest of the core changes)
(+) 75% faster spin-up time
(+) Silent Killer: No barrel spin-up sound
(-) 100 less max health
Huo-Long Heater has pretty much been useless the entire time it's existed. This change would make for a satisfying minigun that tears through enemies at the push of a button. It sounds complicated, but in practice would be pretty simple to use. Firing with just M1 would act like the normal minigun in every way, but holding M2 would make the weapon fire faster, give you some Spy coverage, but make you more vulnerable to ambush, because of slower movement.
--Huo-Long Heater
(i) On MOUSE2: Increases firing speed by 25%, decreases movement speed by 25%, and creates a ring of fire around yourself that costs 8 ammo/second. (just firing with MOUSE1 does not engage this, and instead just acts like the stock minigun. Holding MOUSE2 causes you to lose ammo much faster while increasing your damage output. Also, the ring of fire is now constant instead of pulsing, so a Spy stabbing you will be lit on fire no matter what.)
- SECONDARIES -
Allowing the Heavy to put out his own fire would make the Sandvich more useful, especially since you can now switch out of the minigun significantly faster. However, since you can switch out while revved, the shotguns would indeed become useful again, so I doubt the Sandvich, even with a buff, stay as the only viable Heavy secondary.
--Sandvich
(i) Eat to regain up to 300 health.
(i) Alt-fire: Share a Sandvich with a friend (Medium Health Kit), or yourself (Small Health Kit).
This makes the Dalokohs bar taunt take half as long to get through, allowing Heavy to use it in much sketchier situations freely, and also allowing Heavy to be prepared for fights all the time. I could see Heavy using this at the corner of a choke right before the midfight, having gotten there with the Tomislav's movement speed combined with the GRU.
--Dalokohs Bar
(+) Adds +50 max health for 30 seconds
(+) 50% less consumption time
(i) Eat to gain up to 100 health.
(i) Alt-fire: Share chocolate with a friend (Small Health Kit)
This change is likely to be very controversial, ESPECIALLY when combined with the minigun it was released with (Brass Beast). They work together very well after these changes, you see, and allow Heavy to be a tank that deals massive damage even at long range, without being able to move much at all. But I think the Steak needed a new purpose, and heavier damage output at the expense of survivability and movement speed, I think, is a worthy purpose for a lunchbox item to serve.
--Buffalo Steak Sandvich
(i) While under the effects, attacks minicrit, damage taken will be minicrits, and the player moves 15% slower. (you can use your Minigun still)
Alt-fire: Share with a friend (Medium Health Kit)
The Family Business is in a weird place at the moment, being a shotgun that's better than stock while simultaneously being used very little. Now, given the change that allows Heavy to switch weapons while revving down, I think it was important to change the weapon. This change allows the Heavy, having seen a Sniper out of the corner of his eye, to switch from his minigun to this weapon and start heckling the Sniper. The greater accuracy allows Heavy to keep Sniper from doing as much damage to him, while he gets out of the line of fire.
--Family Business
(+) 33% larger clip size
(+) 30% more accurate (allows the Heavy to ward off Snipers from a distance, while removing its more offensive abilities)
(-) 15% damage penalty
- MELEE - (note: fixed melee weapons aren't here cause they're fixed)
This weapon was released the same time as Natascha and the Sandvich, both of which have been changed here in some way that gives the Heavy an advantage against Pyro. So my change here also allows the Heavy to beat the Pyro attacking wildly.
--Killing Gloves of Boxing
(+) On hit: Heavy knockback is applied to the enemy
(+) 50% less holster and deploy time
(-) 50% less damage (they're boxing gloves for goodness sake)
This weapon is part of the set that includes Brass Beast and Steak, so I figured I'd balance this in a way that works with those two weapons.
--Warrior's Spirit
(+) Crits whenever it would normally mini-crit
(+) Weapon has a longer range (think eyelander)
(-) 50% slower swing speed
I wasn't going to balance this weapon originally, but I'm pretty sick of the GRU-lite thing it's become. So I figured I'd make the first offensively viable Heavy melee weapon. Might be overpowered, actually. We'll have to see. Works well with the new Tomislav, theoretically (additional movement speed). Part of the set, you know. And they're brass knuckles, for goodness sake.
--Eviction Notice
(+) 40% faster firing speed
(+) On Hit: Gain a speed boost
(+) 15% faster move speed on wearer
(-) 35% increased damage vulnerability (same as marked-for-death, but a different attribute in case it's used with the steak)[/QUOTE]
edit: since Fists of Steel is still banned I'll likely have to write a fix for it
I'd just like to give a headsup that MVM knockback rage has a hidden stat where you do 50% less damage while the effect is active.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53042823]I wonder if any new Heavy weapons will have wordplay in the name like the KGB and GRU, can anyone think of more names like that?[/QUOTE]
I wanted to make a mobility-based Primary replacement (a risky choice, i know) called the [URL="http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Security_Service"]Fatman's Speeding Breastplate[/URL]. I would've been a biomechanical piece of armor.
[QUOTE=DrCactus;53042838]I'd just like to give a headsup that MVM knockback rage has a hidden stat where you do 50% less damage while the effect is active.[/QUOTE]
but why
My goodness do you people love to talk about balance.
I almost forgot what it was like to have actual conversations about TF2 and not be drowned out by low-effort memes, being in this community.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53042842]but why[/QUOTE]
Valve being valve
you are sick in your mind if you think mvm knockback rage is workeable in pvp. it literally unplugs your keyboard until you press jump, in which case it turns into airblast bullets and the victim will get pinned into the skybox within a second or two.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53042848]you are sick in your mind if you think mvm knockback rage is workeable in pvp. it literally unplugs your keyboard until you press jump, in which case it turns into airblast bullets and the victim will get pinned into the skybox with a second or two.[/QUOTE]
well, you're the mvm guy. i don't study how each type of knockback works. i've got several other ideas for a balance for the natascha, but they all basically make the weapon into a new weapon (not that that's a problem)
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53042851]well, you're the mvm guy. i don't study how each type of knockback works. i've got several other ideas for a balance for the natascha, but they all basically make the weapon into a new weapon (not that that's a problem)[/QUOTE]
Stuns in first person shooters are stupid, and unfun.
Some mechanics are similar, but not also not complete ass. CSGO's flashbangs are a tactical and anti-camping tool that also can be avoided or outplayed. Getting knocked back more than usual by something without a logically forceful reason (i.e. an explosive detonated in front of you) will always be dumb, because of the loss of movement control.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;53042878]Stuns in first person shooters are stupid, and unfun.
Some mechanics are similar, but not also not complete ass. CSGO's flashbangs are a tactical and anti-camping tool that also can be avoided or outplayed. Getting knocked back more than usual by something without a logically forceful reason (i.e. an explosive detonated in front of you) will always be dumb, because of the loss of movement control.[/QUOTE]
This is still my main problem with Overwatch. Too many of the abilities are just clicking the opponent to disable them for a free kill with the enemy having literally zero agency. They look flashy but are boring as fuck to play and fucking annoying to play against. It's why original Sandman was boring and unfun and the same for buffed Natasha. I don't want disables you can't outplay in TF2 personally.
Natascha's current gimmick is fine. Remember, annoying =/= unbalanced. You don't need to completely rework it just because Scout mains are upset over the weapon. Maybe decrease initial slow percentage and have it ramp up the more bullets hit the character up to normal rate, but then you'd have to give it a hefty buff because as it stands it's still garbage compared to stock minigun.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;53042878]Stuns in first person shooters are stupid, and unfun.
Some mechanics are similar, but not also not complete ass. CSGO's flashbangs are a tactical and anti-camping tool that also can be avoided or outplayed. Getting knocked back more than usual by something without a logically forceful reason (i.e. an explosive detonated in front of you) will always be dumb, because of the loss of movement control.[/QUOTE]
if it just pushed you away from the fire i wouldn't call it a stun, but obviously it does annoyingly more than that. i see natascha as sort of a bulkier version of stock, so i might come up with stats later that accentuate that
[editline]11th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53042886]Natascha's current gimmick is fine. Remember, annoying =/= unbalanced. You don't need to completely rework it just because Scout mains are upset over the weapon. Maybe decrease initial slow percentage and have it ramp up the more bullets hit the character up to normal rate, but then you'd have to give it a hefty buff because as it stands it's still garbage compared to stock minigun.[/QUOTE]
actually, natascha is banned in 6s so obviously it's not fine. it's weak and annoying, and both things can be fixed by removing the dumb gimmick that is slow.
annoying is almost as much of a problem as unbalanced. obviously, they aren't the same thing, but [B]they're both problems[/B].
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53042889]
actually, natascha is banned in 6s so obviously it's not fine. it's weak and annoying, and both things can be fixed by removing the dumb gimmick that is slow.
annoying is almost as much of a problem as unbalanced. obviously, they aren't the same thing, but [B]they're both problems[/B].[/QUOTE]
Natascha being banned in 6s doesn't mean it's not fine. We've been over this before multiple times, just because 6s bans it doesn't mean it's an actual problem, but I will add that 6s is a completely different environment from normal play that most people experience. Mobility is a huge factor in 6s, unlike regular play, where Engineer nests, Spies, and Snipers get to roam and A/D maps exist.
6s TF2 isn't trying to create a perfect TF2, it's trying to create a perfect competitive environment within TF2, and basing your logic on that and "well i don't like it so there's obviously a problem with it!" actively hinders fruitful discussion for balancing.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53042894]6s is a completely different environment from normal play that most people experience[/QUOTE]
This ought to change eventually. Give the option of Casual 6v6, dabble in class limits, and most importantly, get the 6s community to be more accepting of new maps that aren't 5cp (half the reason why Heavy, Engineer, Spy, Sniper, and Pyro aren't viable).
It shouldn't ought to change at all IMO. I'd much rather 6s stay in its current state where weapons that go against the ideal competitive environment be banned and the consistent meta stay the way it is, than every single class be a generalist with more/less health/movespeed. You can feel different, but as I said it'll muddy balance discussion because people will have different ideal outcomes. All my balance suggestions have been focused on weapons that are at least viable and unique casually, for example.
All that aside, even if Natascha's slow was removed entirely, I don't feel there'd be a good way to distinctly make Natascha unique, but if anybody else had any ideas, I'd be for hearing them. I do like the idea of a Minigun that's weaker over-all but has more utility like Natascha and the Huo-long.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53042903]than every single class be a generalist with more/less health/movespeed.[/QUOTE]
I don't get how Scout, Soldier, and Demoman, who are all generalists, are just the same class with differences in health and movespeed. They're not, just like a buffed Heavy wouldn't be like them, or an altered Engineer, Spy, Pyro, or Sniper. You can make all the classes viable full-time without making them the same class. We've been over this.
[editline]11th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53042903]It shouldn't ought to change at all IMO. I'd much rather 6s stay in its current state where weapons that go against the ideal competitive environment be banned and the consistent meta stay the way it is[/QUOTE]
Valve wants to support 6v6 as Team Fortress 2's official competitive mode (and not Highlander). Valve also wants weapon bans to not exist. Therefore, weapons should be balanced for this gamemode, and we should be introducing players to the format early, through the option of Unranked (casual) 6v6.
the problem with casual1 6v6 is people running 6 engies on last, or 4 spies and a 2 pyros will get wrecked. they will abandon the mode and never come back.
on the other side if you enforce them into a class they are bound to disconect/retire if they can't choose the class they want, leaving their team behind.
[QUOTE=Metaru;53042931]the problem with casual1 6v6 is people running 6 engies on last, or 4 spies and a 2 pyros will get wrecked. they will abandon the mode and never come back.
on the other side if you enforce them into a class they are bound to disconect/retire if they can't choose the class they want, leaving their team behind.[/QUOTE]
A class limit of two should fix that. In casual 12v12 you could have 12 engies on last but people don't do that anyway. The point is to get people used to the idea of 12-people servers
more often than i wish to admit being forced into a class because two dudes already picked the one you want is shit-
i'd rather have the game tell you "there are too many support classes/there are not enough offense classes" and let people know naturally the importance of balance for a good team.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53042951]A class limit of two should fix that. In casual 12v12 you could have 12 engies on last but people don't do that anyway. The point is to get people used to the idea of 12-people servers[/QUOTE]
I forget where, but I think someone mentioned giving people the option to pick what class they want to play as when they que up for matches so they can be placed in teams with slots for said classes open.
The problem with this though would probably result in the same as an MMORPG.... Where people will que up for DPS and take forever to get into groups, where as tanks and healers will get in super fast because there are far less of them actively searching.
Generally though, it all really boils down to partying up before queuing, which would actually solve the problem altogether as you'll play with both people you know and enjoy playing with as opposed to playing with people you have know idea existed till just then and there lol. You also don't have a clue what they enjoy playing as and how much they understand the game in general. I do wish games would promote trying to queue up with people you enjoy playing with in some manner though. To showcase how much better the experience would be in the game if you took advantage of the function.
[QUOTE=Metaru;53042963]more often than i wish to admit being forced into a class because two dudes already picked the one you want is shit-
i'd rather have the game tell you "there are too many support classes/there are not enough offense classes" and let people know naturally the importance of balance for a good team.[/QUOTE]
Overwatch does that and I still see people regularly pick more of classes they already have an abundance of in it ( too many snipers, goes hanzo for instance lol). It probably wouldn't solve a thing in Team Fortress 2 at all knowing that. =/
[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53042966]Overwatch does that and I still see people regularly pick more of classes they already have an abundance of in it ( too many snipers, goes hanzo for instance lol). It probably wouldn't solve a thing in Team Fortress 2 at all knowing that. =/[/QUOTE]
Usually the argument for that in OW is [I]"they're so dramatically different in playstyles, it'll benefit the team, trust me I'm good."[/I]
In TF2 there's not exactly 26 different classes; 4 of which are different sniper classes, but instead 9 classes with varying simple changes in playstyles depending on loadouts.
If there is [B]'too many snipers'[/B] then there is literally too many snipers, some may argue [I]"but I'm running Huntsman"[/I] but that doesn't change the fact you're playing a 125 health class built for long-range combat.
Same with if there is [B]'too many engineers' [/B]then you have too many engineers, it wouldn't be so vague on what is over-populated like [B]'too much support/attack'[/B] it could simply state there is too much of one class.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53042753]Remember how GRU's speed bonus was capped at 100% when people realized they could pair it with the Bsteak?[/QUOTE]
[video=youtube;7shqb9gmKm8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7shqb9gmKm8[/video]
absolutely disgusting
[QUOTE=X marks it;53043014]Usually the argument for that in OW is [I]"they're so dramatically different in playstyles, it'll benefit the team, trust me I'm good."[/I]
In TF2 there's not exactly 26 different classes; 4 of which are different sniper classes, but instead 9 classes with varying simple changes in playstyles depending on loadouts.
If there is [B]'too many snipers'[/B] then there is literally too many snipers, some may argue [I]"but I'm running Huntsman"[/I] but that doesn't change the fact you're playing a 125 health class built for long-range combat.
Same with if there is [B]'too many engineers' [/B]then you have too many engineers, it wouldn't be so vague on what is over-populated like [B]'too much support/attack'[/B] it could simply state there is too much of one class.[/QUOTE]
anyone who has been playing tf2 has faced more often than necesary team with nothing but snipers and spies on maps like payload and A/D that are too focused on SICK OHKO than actually contributing.
you're still not going to change a kid's mentality right off the bat, but if the game is telling you that your team needs more attack classes to win, he'll pick an offense class to win. same when suddenly 4 people decide to switch to spy to take down one sentry at the same time.
wich in turn might even teach you when its ok to offclass by pure experience.
