This idea:
Saxton Hale: [I]Your bloody team has too many offensive mercs![/I]
And the claim it will solve related problems is fruitless without rebalances. 7 demos wins pub games, 7 spies loses them. It will never not be like that without valve doing actual class balance, and considering that's about 500 years off, the composition reminders will be as effective as overwatch's ones.
[QUOTE=Metaru;53042931]the problem with casual1 6v6 is people running 6 engies on last, or 4 spies and a 2 pyros will get wrecked. they will abandon the mode and never come back.
on the other side if you enforce them into a class they are bound to disconect/retire if they can't choose the class they want, leaving their team behind.[/QUOTE]
This sounds like more of a problem with the average gamer these days being a whiny ass bitch, rather than anything wrong with enforcing team composition in class based shooters. Personal, subjective fun (getting curb stomped as gibus spy #8 with a KDR of 0-23) is somehow more enjoyable in player minds than winning is, and you can take those observations to the bank.
We remarkably have this same problem in games where every participant is functionally the same like (the old titles of) Halo or in CSGO, where [I]everybody[/I] wants to use a certain strategy or weapon or vehicle, and in doing so hurts team strength because they're meant to be spread out and tactically diverse.
TL;DR- fix player mentality/make winning valued over style points, and the problem corrects itself.
Things arent banned primarily because they are "unbalanced" but because they also slow down the game and make it less fun.
No one wants heavy to mid because people are more interested in a Soldier denying the enemy Roamer's bomb via an amazingly placed airshot instead of a heavy pointing at him from the ground, locking him in place in the sky and then fuggin killing him. Same goes for pyro - especially right now where you can flail and bail.
Then there are things like the Natascha where a lot of people would rather prefer to ram a scorpion up their ass instead of fighting it - you can't just reduce it to "lemo scout mains eks de"
So the question isn't "How do we change the Natascha/rest etc. to make it balanced for comp?" since they [I]are[/I] already balanced just awful to fight against, but how do I make these things more interesting, skillful to use while at the same time ensuring they wont slow down the game?
Also as far as b4nny's opinions and the like go; He might be a god at this game however I question his mentality; He seems to believe that the more weapons unbanned -> the more people interested in 6s - which is a rather flawed view.
[QUOTE=Fluury;53043129]Also as far as b4nny's opinions and the like go; He might be a god at this game however I question his mentality; He seems to believe that the more weapons unbanned -> the more people interested in 6s - which is a rather flawed view.[/QUOTE]
It depends... I can agree that it's a bit unrealistic to think that all weapons can be banned. But if he wants to make as many weapons unbanned as possible for the sake of having a more diverse set of options, I think it could be a good thing to at least attempt it. If you can toss out a whole slew of options to pick on how to approach, it could help make the game more interesting as a whole for everyone. Living off the same old tiered format over and over will just lead to it eventually becoming stale to play with, play against and to view as a whole over time.
Eventually you have to do it, other wise the game will suffer and die.
Are the stickies from the scottish resistance suppose to be able to stick on spawn doors?
[QUOTE=Fluury;53043129]
Also as far as b4nny's opinions and the like go; He might be a god at this game however I question his mentality; He seems to believe that the more weapons unbanned -> the more people interested in 6s - which is a rather flawed view.[/QUOTE]
I think B4nny believes that comp TF2 needs to be as close to regular TF2 as possible, having a bunch of bans and classes that are rarely played are going to turn off a lot of casual TF2 fans from comp.
[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;53043196]I think B4nny believes that comp TF2 needs to be as close to regular TF2 as possible, having a bunch of bans and classes that are rarely played are going to turn off a lot of casual TF2 fans from comp.[/QUOTE]
b4nny is a bad rolemodel
[QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;53043196]I think B4nny believes that comp TF2 needs to be as close to regular TF2 as possible, having a bunch of bans and classes that are rarely played are going to turn off a lot of casual TF2 fans from comp.[/QUOTE]
I'd say the first step is to make the in-game comp actually usable, then we can talk about refining it.
[QUOTE=qubestf2;53043215]b4nny is a bad rolemodel[/QUOTE]
I don't think he's wrong, comp TF2 is probably just too different compared to normal TF2 to really break through with the majority of TF2 players. I think comp does need to move to a format that's closer to regular/casual TF2 to really succeed with the playerbase.
[QUOTE=Fluury;53043223]I'd say the first step is to make the in-game comp actually usable, then we can talk about refining it.[/QUOTE]
Considering Valve doesn't seem interested in banning any weapons for their version of comp getting everything to a non overpowered/banned state is pretty important. Of course if more classes are played some weapons might not be so problematic.
Atleast in quickplay maps with low player counts like degrout keep were simple to join,now you need to wait for a hour to join a degrout keep game,sure almost nobody plays it but it would be really great if they made the matchmaking faster.
Also fuck the defense bonus.
[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;53043251]Atleast in quickplay maps with low player counts like degrout keep were simple to join,now you need to wait for a hour to join a degrout keep game,sure almost nobody plays it but it would be really great if they made the matchmaking faster.
Also fuck the defense bonus.[/QUOTE]
You can't make matchmaking faster if there's no players interested in playing those maps. I don't think you'd enjoy degroot keep with 4 players regardless.
Also community servers.
As of today, Smissmas has ended.
Apart from that, you now have exactly [B]1 Month[/B] left to finish your Contracts as on the 11th Feburary, Jungle Inferno ends.
what if all miniguns gave you a 20-25% damage resistance if you crouched while spun up, therefore completely unable to move but yet at the same time incredibly tanky? then what if the brass beast gave you an even higher damage resistance when crouching and spun up?
[editline] 8:00 am lol [/editline]
also throw on a knockback immunity while both spun up and crouching and maybe a slightly higher accuracy while crouched too
Hello, is it me you didn't realise you're looking for?
[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/298483550020173825/400994363129331712/unknown.png[/img]
Top is valve's current texture, bottom is my WIP texture.
Suprised that mr paladin talked about the diamondback
[video=youtube;xeLj6T1lx2E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeLj6T1lx2E[/video]
My opinion on the Diamond Back is it rewards you from just playing the class as you should be in the first place, which isn't a good design at all.
Getting a backstab is Spy's thing that he should be doing, at the very least its old "destroying buildings grant crits" only stat was rewarding spies for successfully doing something that is a one-off.
Usually using said crits to get out of a situation after destroying a nest, but this current design encourages crit storing...Which is a god awful mechanic when not done right.
Letting spies without a care drop enemies in as little as 2 hits, which isn't a hard thing to do with revolver aside from the minor annoyance which is revolver spread.
I'm not sure what could be done to make this weapon 'fair' to fight against whilst still being viable to equip.
My suggestion would be to make it so while a building is sapped the diamondback is mini-critted.
The disadvantages? I'm not entirely sure, a flat damage reduction would make it inferior to stock in many situations, a firing speed reduction would make you question its usefulness.
weapons that reward a class for doing what they're supposed to do anyway are always bad in design
[QUOTE=rolfum;53043321]what if all miniguns gave you a 20-25% damage resistance if you crouched while spun up, therefore completely unable to move but yet at the same time incredibly tanky? then what if the brass beast gave you an even higher damage resistance when crouching and spun up?
[editline] 8:00 am lol [/editline]
also throw on a knockback immunity while both spun up and crouching and maybe a slightly higher accuracy while crouched too[/QUOTE]
Fuck defend contracts
I don't think "rewarding you for doing what you would be doing anyway" is necessarily a bad mechanic. Soldier banners do it fine, so does ubercharge. In most cases it just functions as an ability with a cool down, with the caveat that you only get it if you stay alive near the front line long enough instead of being able to hide out in some corner somewhere. The problem with the diamondback isn't that it "rewards you for doing what you would be doing anyway", it's that giving spy the ability to twoshot almost anybody in the game in a split second is fucking stupid.
I don't understand the reasoning behind that video. "Hey, the Frontier Justice and sniper's quickscopes are [I]technically[/I] stronger than the diamondback so it should not be nerfed."
Well, for one, Engineer is super squishy (slightly less with the Gunslinger) and slow, and you can actually see the weapon coming because crit glows are incredibly visible, from anywhere, as long as it has crit charges. It's very likely that if the Engineer is using this weapon, then his sentry is down and he can only defend himself with his own primary and secondary. As noted before, he's pretty squishy, so going ham with this weapon isn't just going to give you +20 killstreaks as you still need to play conservatively, and he's slow as well, so he's easy to aim to with any explosive weapon and hitscan.
Sniper's quickscopes are a different matter which I won't dwell too much into, but to put it bluntly, you have to aim at the person's head, and it's more difficult the more close (and sometimes, the father away) he is from you. If the enemy is looking backwards (or abusing medic calls, which raises their hand to cover their head) then it's harder to headshot them as well. But a sniper can't just walk up to you and do 150 damage, that just simply requires a lot of confidence, skill, and cockiness.
What does the Diamondback have that these do not?
First of all, because of disguises, you rarely if ever know what the Spy is using as their loadout until such disguise is gone. This means that this hides the Diamondback and its crit glow, so you do not see it coming.
Second of all, unlike the Engineer and Sniper, Spy has a mobility aid: invisibility, used by all watches, which means he can get behind the enemy lines, as we all know, and what this means is that he usually gets close to people to backstab them, and when he gets noticed after the backstab kill (or if such backstab has missed, oops), then he can wield the Diamondback and shoot the unlucky other people that were near him if he was noticed by them (as long as he has crits stored, else the Spy will run away).
Third of all, it requires less skill than the aforementioned quickscope (and against competent players, it's also difficult to keep up a sentry as Engineer if the offensive is going strong, which is what earns you Frontier Justice crits) - you simply have to aim at their center of mass for 102 damage shots. Indeed, it has random bullet spread, but in mid to close range, the range Spies usually operate with, there's rarely any issues shooting a player with it, and I doubt anybody in the receiving end has thought to themselves "damn, that spy has outplayed me with their Diamondback skills" even once.
Some people cite the "rewarding you for doing what you're supposed to do" as a flaw, but many weapons in TF2 work like this, such as the Air Strike (you have to kill specifically with this weapon), Bazaar Bargain (headshots take skill), Eyelander (you have to kill specifically with this weapon, again), so forth and so on. The real true core of the problem is that the Diamondback, which used to reward successfully destroyed buildings with crits, is that it was [I]not[/I] rebalanced in mind when backstabs started to increase the crit count. If the TF2 team wants to keep this design, mini-crits would be less frustrating as they deal less damage but you keep the lack of damage fall-off that crits have, or revert the original design back.
Me, personally, I never had much issue against the Diamondback, since the spies who use it rely on it as a crutch and they don't have enough Spy skills to actually be annoying with the weapon, even if they kill me with it, but it does have flaws. I wouldn't go as far as to call it overpowered, though, but it does not feel fair or like a "situational" sidegrade as it makes it easy to defend yourself as long as you have crits, which are easy to obtain. I'm sure Spy mains have very clear opinions about the weapon, but these are my two cents as I felt that some of the points used in the video were a bit unreasonable due to the comparisons used.
Frontier justice has a real downside, you only got 3 bullets, if you jump in a fight and didn't finish it with 3 bullets, you're fucked, shotguns don't reload their entire clip at once
I like mr paladin, but most of his points in that video is a straw man
did paladin just try to say that the frontier justice is better than the diamondback because it has a taunt kill
can you still bid unusual shred alerts on srap.tf auctions?
Frontier Justice works the same mechanically but I dont think you can really compare that and the Diamondback and say that its fine.
Engi is more likely to get killed before he can use the crits, while a Spy can cloak and disguise to avoid dying. And the Frontier Justice needs the engi to be up close, which is already a disadvantage for him.
Frontier Justice requires the engi's sentry gun to be destroyed to be used. That could help the enemy team do the objective and your team has less defenses to rely on.
The engi can have free crits, but that means he has to rebuild the sentry and delay the defenses.
Diamondback though, can be used with no big downside to you or to your team.
everything with stored crits and stored heads/kills are dumb design simply because they punish players who had nothing to do with the owner's progress.
i'm glad more and more people are seeing them for what they are. (although I do agree FJ and mannmelter are on a less offending degree)
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53043843]everything with stored crits and stored heads/kills are dumb design simply because they punish players who had nothing to do with the owner's progress.
i'm glad more and more people are seeing them for what they are. (although I do agree FJ and mannmelter are on a less offending degree)[/QUOTE]
This includes the Ubersaw. I have no idea why people have a softspot for the Ubersaw, it's just as stupid as the FJ, Diamondback or Eyelander.
[QUOTE=Fluury;53043888]This includes the Ubersaw. I have no idea why people have a softspot for the Ubersaw, it's just as stupid as the FJ, Diamondback or Eyelander.[/QUOTE]
Ubersaw gets special treatment because it's on a class that is historically horrible in combat in a futile attempt to build the most game-changing mechanic in the game provided he has enough uber to begin with.
It's one of those things where people say the downside is that "He might die." Well no shit he might die, the ubersaw had nothing to do with the fact that he might die, he'd be dead with any other melee trying the same shit. I've seen people argue that "It's the ubersaw that made him get greedy," when in fact it's just the Medic player being greedy, the weapon is indifferent on if you take a risk or play conservatively. In fact, Ubersaw makes that exchange [i]safer[/i] because a successful ubersaw hit means he can uber himself and run away. So those arguments are out the window.
Really the only reason people tolerate it is because it creates a potential for big medic plays, nothing more and nothing less.
Be glad that ubersaw hits no longer reward him for slapping a disguised Spy, it was far too easy to deliberately heal oblivious spies so you can rack up a few extra hits on them for a full uber. Why Bonk! allows uber building I'll never know.
Anyway, Uber charge rate is a weird thing to discuss because you're constantly putting the Medic in max build rate already by damaging but not killing his patient. Indirectly you are constantly contributing to him getting ubercharge faster than your own Medic, and at a fundamental level it's not something that you can listlessly design away at a psychological level.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53043959]Ubersaw gets special treatment because it's on a class that is historically horrible in combat in a futile attempt to build the most game-changing mechanic in the game provided he has enough uber to begin with.
It's one of those things where people say the downside is that "He might die." Well no shit he might die, the ubersaw had nothing to do with the fact that he might die, he'd be dead with any other melee trying the same shit. I've seen people argue that "It's the ubersaw that made him get greedy," when in fact it's just the Medic player being greedy, the weapon is indifferent on if you take a risk or play conservatively. In fact, Ubersaw makes that exchange [i]safer[/i] because a successful ubersaw hit means he can uber himself and run away. So those arguments are out the window.
Really the only reason people tolerate it is because it creates a potential for big medic plays, nothing more and nothing less.
Be glad that ubersaw hits no longer reward him for slapping a disguised Spy, it was far too easy to deliberately heal oblivious spies so you can rack up a few extra hits on them for a full uber. Why Bonk! allows uber building I'll never know.
Anyway, Uber charge rate is a weird thing to discuss because you're constantly putting the Medic in max build rate already by damaging but not killing his patient. Indirectly you are constantly contributing to him getting ubercharge faster than your own Medic, and at a fundamental level it's not something that you can listlessly design away at a psychological level.[/QUOTE]
I still don't fucking get it. People whine about the Diamondback because "wah I get punished for shit I didnt have anything to do with" yet the Medic can punish the [b]entire team[/b] with the most fucking gamechanging ability in the game because your scout was being stupid - a single player fucks his entire team over, basically, while with the Diamondback its more of a "single player fucks single player up."
If we ever see the Diamondback changed, we better see the Ubersaw getting changed too because you either change everything or you change nothing - doesnt matter if some people see to have a hard-on because "muh epic plays" its still a stupid mechanic that punishes you for something you had nothing to do with - taken to the extreme
[QUOTE=Fluury;53043888]This includes the Ubersaw. I have no idea why people have a softspot for the Ubersaw, it's just as stupid as the FJ, Diamondback or Eyelander.[/QUOTE]
I feel ubersaw is ok because anytime you see a enemy medic you can't really know his uber meter. he might have built off his charge "legitimately" or not, at that point it doesn't really matter.
at any rate, if people are going to defend the crossbow to death on the sole basis that it makes the class "funnier" then I imagine ubersaw can have that safe spot too
The Ubersaw deserves the Ambassador/Axtinguisher treatment
-snip-
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