Is there a reason why we can't make the Natascha deal increased bullet knock back instead of slow down?
[QUOTE=Gentleman Cat;53044011]Is there a reason why we can't make the Natascha deal increased bullet knock back instead of slow down?[/QUOTE]
It'd still be annoying to play against. Not annoying in the sense of being glued to the floor but annoying in that you literally cannot approach the heavy if he's looking at you so you get to have fun dealing middling damage to the guy since you can't use damage rampup.
[QUOTE=Fluury;53043288]As of today, Smissmas has ended.
Apart from that, you now have exactly [B]1 Month[/B] left to finish your Contracts as on the 11th Feburary, Jungle Inferno ends.[/QUOTE]
This might be the first set of contracts I won't end up completing I think heh... Well, at least 100%ing a that is... I'm just below Silver level and I'm far more interested in drawing as of late then anything else. Maybe if a lot of the bonuses weren't so tedious I would have finished it... But it sucks to work a good several hours to get one bonus done because things either don't register or take forever to get the required amount of kills involved.
Been playing a new 3DS game too called Ever Oasis.
[QUOTE=Nebrassy;53043621]Frontier justice has a real downside, you only got 3 bullets, if you jump in a fight and didn't finish it with 3 bullets, you're fucked, shotguns don't reload their entire clip at once
I like mr paladin, but most of his points in that video is a straw man[/QUOTE]
Personally, I'd like to at least see a really low cap rate at how many crits you can store if anything for the Frontier Justice... The amount he can store now is nothing short of asinine...
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53044025]It'd still be annoying to play against. Not annoying in the sense of being glued to the floor but annoying in that you literally cannot approach the heavy if he's looking at you so you get to have fun dealing middling damage to the guy since you can't use damage rampup.[/QUOTE]
Would be kind of counter productive for the heavy too as his bullets will deal less damage the further the target from the heavy. Not to mention you can jump already and the heavy will launch you away from him as is, which helps with getting away from heavies.
[QUOTE=Hilarious Pill;53043997]The Ubersaw deserves the Ambassador/Axtinguisher treatment[/QUOTE]
You mean become unusable to the point that if you equip them your essentially handicapping yourself? How about no....
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53043992]I feel ubersaw is ok because anytime you see a enemy medic you can't really know his uber meter. he might have built off his charge "legitimately" or not, at that point it doesn't really matter.
at any rate, if people are going to defend the crossbow to death on the sole basis that it makes the class "funnier" then I imagine ubersaw can have that safe spot too[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53043843]dumb design simply because they [b]punish players who had nothing to do with the owner's progress.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
The Ubersaw takes quite literally the thing you criticized but to an extreme level since it literally is a game decider - it doesnt matter if he got the uber "legit" or not you are still getting beaned for something you had nothin to do with. It's a stupid concept and needs to be purged for the reasons you yourself named.
Crossbow is OP as fuck and in every way superior to the Needle Guns but atleast it doesnt punish you for something you had nothing to do with - which is why this comparision imo falls flat.
[QUOTE=Fluury;53044069]The Ubersaw takes quite literally the thing you criticized but to an extreme level since it literally is a game decider - it doesnt matter if he got the uber "legit" or not you are still getting beaned for something you had nothin to do with. It's a stupid concept and needs to be purged for the reasons you yourself named.
Crossbow is OP as fuck and in every way superior to the Needle Guns but atleast it doesnt punish you for something you had nothing to do with - which is why this comparision imo falls flat.[/QUOTE]
yes but you expect medics to ubercharge. it's normal behavior
you don't expect a spy or engineer to shit a 200 damage at you in a second, or a demo to run at scout speed, or a soldier to shit 8 rockets in a second, or a sniper to scope at you and near instantly do a 150 bodyshot.
but I can understand the core of your complaint is valid.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53044025]It'd still be annoying to play against. Not annoying in the sense of being glued to the floor but annoying in that you literally cannot approach the heavy if he's looking at you so you get to have fun dealing middling damage to the guy since you can't use damage rampup.[/QUOTE]
It would be annoying, but at least you actually have an option to get out of his range by being able to run behind cover instead of suffering the slowdown. Knockback should scale with damage, so the heavy pelting you backwards with bullets would be a non-issue because of the large spread of the minigun and the damage fall off would cause little to no knock back while getting up close would knock you back quite a ways. Of course anyone trying to approach a heavy with this weapon wouldn't be able to, but that's literally the case with the other miniguns as well. In this case, the gun would push you back instead of killing you. Besides, you shouldn't be approaching this heavy head-on while he's very aware of your presence, which is ideal for dealing with classes that like to get up close and personal like pyros, demoknights, scouts, or uber pairs. You can work with bullet knock back because it's a more acceptable mechanic to balance a gun around than a mechanic that was universally hated on release and the subsequent changes after.
Have to say Valve's sound team's still got it, the Dragon's Fury and Thermal Thruster sound pretty great, the Winger and Brass Beast too, Family Business and Frontier Justice are okay, no real opinion.
It is a shame how much of an eyesore the undeployed Thruster is, the deployed model is good.
ahem.
Random crits. I don't care about stored crits, but please, remove random crits or just keep them for melee weapons.
If the TF team is literaly forced to not remove random crits the very least they can do is remove the crit chance ramp up with damage and just keep it the same for both attackers and defenders.
I'm torn on Frontier Justice because it's a fantastically well designed weapon, from the ENGINEER'S perspective. It would be a shame to lose that really fun playstyle. With respect to other players' experience though, I'm torn. On the one hand, if the enemy knows the engi has the FJ, it's a pretty reasonable exchange. The engi has to play defensively to make sure he doesn't die until his sentry has racked up kills, so if you push forward and get somebody to get engi picks, and time it right, then there's a reasonable counter play there. Unfortunately, it's not always clear what shotgun the engi has until it's too late, and he just randomly pulls out a critical shotgun that you couldn't have seen coming. There's also the matter of it sometimes just not being feasible to pick the engi without destroying his sentry, at which point he gets any crits he had anyway. The bigger issue though is that the sentry could have been destroyed minutes ago, and he could still have the crits. There's no way to predict when a FJ engi is going to begin his rampage.
I think a good compromise would be to replace [I]stored[/I] crits with a crit buff with a length based on how many kills the engi got. At 3+ kills he gets like 5 seconds of full crits when the sentry goes boom, and maybe a minicrit buff after that based on how many additional kills the sentry got, up to like an additional 10 seconds. If those crits are applied to ALL weapons instead of just his shotgun, then you also telegraph that he has crits so he can't just swap to crits when you don't expect it.
This all means you also have a better idea of when to be wary of the FJ engi. You know exactly how long his maximum crit boost is going to last, so you don't have to be guessing anymore.
The new airblast makes players lose footing even when on the ground, maybe Natascha could have more knockback and make players lose footing to push them away?
i have no idea what this trend of "pushing things away" with heavy is since you actually want your opponents as close as possible when playing heavy, and not help them by surfing away to safety.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53044348]i have no idea what this trend of "pushing things away" with heavy is since you actually want your opponents as close as possible when playing heavy, and not help them by surfing away to safety.[/QUOTE]
Bringing things towards the player is apparently hell on the game, if that one Mann Co Cutting Room Floor blog post from a few years back is any indication, but I still want [URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=268674747"]a sweeper item for Heavy[/URL]. Maybe something with a quick switch speed to create a suck-and-slap play style (bring enemies close then beat the shit out of them with your fists).
Besides the Pyro flame stuff, what are some annoying bugs you want fixed?
Make Frontier Justice focused completely on revenge. You get mini-crit boosted for 5 seconds should your sentry die. Torn on saying it should be whenever they die, even if you explode them yourself, because that'd increase its skill ceiling especially for gunslinger engineers and engineers that have binds for destroying their guns to respawn them, or it should only be when an enemy kills one so it doesn't feel OP because the Engineer controller his Sentry's death and basically gets crits on demand if he doesn't have a gun nearby and explodes it whenever he sees somebody.
And also since we're still talking about it, I'll throw up my really shitty concept that illustrates my idea of a Riot Shield Heavy primary weapon -
- Takes up Heavy's Primary slot
- Giant riot shield on Heavy's back
- Right click equips it while your secondary is out
- Absorbs either a certain amount of damage or absorbs all damage (depending on whether we want to go full tank or limited tank with stronger defenses), absorbs projectiles and their knockback somewhat [b](Very important)[/b]
- While equipped you can still use your secondary or your right fist (makes use of the fact that Heavy's the only class that can control whether he uses his right or left hand)
It'd encourage Heavies to use their shotgun more as Sandviches would be useless with the shield, and it'd also help bridge the gap between pushes and tight corridors filled with projectiles
I drew a really shitty and simplistic concept art to illustrate it but I guess I didn't save it so I might whip another one up
The only change i would like to see to the ubersaw is giving it the mackerel/vita-saw hit notifications. It isn't fully necessary since good players would tell their team if they got hit, but since its on the vita (even though it doesnt need to be on it either) it would make sense to put it on the ubersaw. It's also arguably more important to know that a medic has 25 more uber right now than a medic will have 12 later.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53044489]Besides the Pyro flame stuff, what are some annoying bugs you want fixed?[/QUOTE]
Getting stuck in Upward tunnel.
make it so the ubersaw gains uber based on damage done instead of hits, making it so a full 65 damage swing will take 25% while killing someone with low health will only take very little uber, and remove random crits on it as well in order to make it so medic is taking a bigger risk meleeing someone with the ubersaw than the stock bonesaw in a pub
[QUOTE=rolfum;53044579]make it so the ubersaw gains uber based on damage done instead of hits, making it so a full 65 damage swing will take 25% while killing someone with low health will only take very little uber, and remove random crits on it as well in order to make it so medic is taking a bigger risk meleeing someone with the ubersaw than the stock bonesaw in a pub[/QUOTE]
doesnt solve the issue of "Get punished because of other people's mistakes"
Valve went with the same mentality when they made the Vita-Saw so chances are these things are gonna stay for the better or worse.
[QUOTE=Fluury;53044724]doesnt solve the issue of "Get punished because of other people's mistakes"
[/QUOTE]
I don't see how that can be a plausible flaw in the weapon's design when it's A. a problem that occurs in many other weapons in much more potent and dangerous situations (a Pyro reflecting a rocket your teammate fired at them, killing you in one shot, a Sniper teammate missing a headshot on a Heavy that mows you down, a teammate walking too close to you when you're a cloaked spy, getting you killed by rockets and pipes and stickybombs, etc), and B. that's one of the inherent "problems" of team-based gameplay as a whole. You get punished for your teammate's mistakes, you get rewarded for your teammate's success. That's part of working with a team.
Any item in the game that builds meter or holds stats (crits) has the potential to "punish you for others' mistakes." The only question is the [I]end result[/I] a good or bad thing. Medics build Uber, it's what they do. Melee hits are a huge risk for what is already the biggest target on the battlefield (Crossbow hits are not, and it's good the Xbow got nerfed.) If there's an additional area where I'd like to see Medic get a nerf, it's the "I can pocket a scout with any medi gun" mechanic. Ubered scouts suck ass to deal with (especially when they're chugging down the Crit-a-Cola.) Also, medics catching a ride out of a bad situation via scout movement speed feels cheap. Positioning is hugely important for a medic, in competitive and in pubs.
Also, I will never understand the "is not fun to play against" argument as long as quickscoping snipers are a thing.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53044786]I don't see how that can be a plausible flaw in the weapon's design when it's A. a problem that occurs in many other weapons in much more potent and dangerous situations (a Pyro reflecting a rocket your teammate fired at them, killing you in one shot, a Sniper teammate missing a headshot on a Heavy that mows you down, a teammate walking too close to you when you're a cloaked spy, getting you killed by rockets and pipes and stickybombs, etc), and B. that's one of the inherent "problems" of team-based gameplay as a whole. You get punished for your teammate's mistakes, you get rewarded for your teammate's success. That's part of working with a team.[/QUOTE]
Of course we can take the concept of "Punished for teammates mistakes" to the extreme with scenarios like "Because your sniper missed a shot, the heavy mowed you down" but this is completely off the point.
Because then I suppose the Diamondback, Frontier Justice, Eyelander etc. are alright - because these are based on the same principle - "Part of working with a team" -> goes in the same box as a Pyro reflecting a teammates rocket, eh?
Just because a flaw is available in other weapons doesnt mean its fine to inject it into future weapons.
[QUOTE=Ultravod;53044822]Any item in the game that builds meter or holds stats (crits) has the potential to "punish you for others' mistakes." The only question is the [I]end result[/I] a good or bad thing. Medics build Uber, it's what they do..[/QUOTE]
You are doing the "he might die" argument - and as was already said, no shit he might die, as with any other melee weapon.
How do we know if the "end result" is good or bad thing? What makes the Diamondback not fine, which rewards a class for doing what it's supposed to do and punishes players for teammates mistakes, and what makes the Soldier Banners fine, which also reward a class of what it's supposed to do and punishes players for their teammates mistakes?
[QUOTE=Ultravod;53044822]Any item in the game that builds meter or holds stats (crits) has the potential to "punish you for others' mistakes." The only question is the [I]end result[/I] a good or bad thing. Medics build Uber, it's what they do. Melee hits are a huge risk for what is already the biggest target on the battlefield (Crossbow hits are not, and it's good the Xbow got nerfed.) If there's an additional area where I'd like to see Medic get a nerf, it's the "I can pocket a scout with any medi gun" mechanic. Ubered scouts suck ass to deal with (especially when they're chugging down the Crit-a-Cola.) Also, medics catching a ride out of a bad situation via scout movement speed feels cheap. Positioning is hugely important for a medic, in competitive and in pubs.
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I completely agree with this
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Also, I will never understand the "is not fun to play against" argument as long as quickscoping snipers are a thing.[/QUOTE]
I completely disagree with this. Like this is so fundamental, if a weapon is unfun to fight it's a flaw with the game. Just because one weapon has that flaw doesn't mean we should throw our hands in the air and give up on making any interactions fun anymore. Like, if your first reaction to "this aspect of the game is not fun" is "we should make the game LESS fun, there's an example of something that's not fun, therefore unfun mechanics should be our entire design philsophy" then you end up with Overwatch
[QUOTE=Ultravod;53044822]Also, I will never understand the "is not fun to play against" argument as long as quickscoping snipers are a thing.[/QUOTE]
Well, Sniper ought to be removed from the game. He's the only class I'm really not sure what to do with
[QUOTE=Fluury;53044906]How do we know if the "end result" is good or bad thing? What makes the Diamondback not fine, which rewards a class for doing what it's supposed to do and punishes players for teammates mistakes, and what makes the Soldier Banners fine, which also reward a class of what it's supposed to do and punishes players for their teammates mistakes?[/QUOTE]
Soldier gives up something by using a banner. If he's using a banner, that means he is giving up the on-demand finishing and defensive capabilities of the Shotgun, and giving up the on-demand mobility of the Gunboats, in exchange for an occasional pushing force which he must output large amounts of damage for, and with an emphasis on team cooperation for maximum effect.
The Diamondback, however, is still a revolver. It's not a completely different function like switching from a Shotgun to a banner. The only downside to using it is a piddly 15% damage penalty, which is nigh apparent as long as you get a backstab or two. On top of this, a Spy typically uses his revolver seldom, often only in acts of self-defense or in isolated encounters away from the rest of the enemy team. This often leads to the Spy having gained many crits by the time he actually needs to use his revolver, thus being able to dish out a dangerous stream of damage in a manner not expected of his class.
Finally, there is the obvious fact that a Spy can pop off with his Diamondback without anybody even knowing he had any crits beforehand, since he can disguise and hide them. A banner meanwhile has a very audible noise when activated, and cannot be used instantly in the way the Diamondback can. There is a grace period during activation where the Soldier cannot switch weapons or defend himself, and if the Soldier wishes to hold the charge further, he will be putting himself in an extended state of being able to do nothing other than hold the banner.
When will the Sniper problem be fully addressed and dealt with.
[QUOTE=Fluury;53044906]Of course we can take the concept of "Punished for teammates mistakes" to the extreme with scenarios like "Because your sniper missed a shot, the heavy mowed you down" but this is completely off the point. [/QUOTE]
It isn't at all. The point you're arguing is that Ubersaw feels bad because Medic builds uber faster by hitting teammates with it, yes? Again, on a grand scale, that's the entire foundation of team-based video games, but more in line with what you're talking about, you can't just say a weapon is unbalanced because it's "unfun" and "punishes you for mistakes your teammates make". If you're looking for a game that doesn't have features that punish you for your teammate's mistakes, play solo FPS games like the new Doom, or fighting games. Ubersaw isn't unbalanced just because it "punishes you for your teammates fucking up". A medic is at risk using it, it's arguably weaker than his default melee, and it is a weapon with a fairly middle skill ceiling, it's not like any shitty Medic can use it and get a free uber off of it. in fact, the Vita-saw got balanced because literally any Medic that equipped it was in an advantageous position for just using it over other melees, and now it's similar to the Ubersaw in that it requires player input to get a rewarding skill-base outputs.
We should break it down even farther and take a perspective of a much wider context, say, an actual match. A Medic getting uber 10 seconds faster because he melee'd a Spy that was too close isn't throwing the balance of TF2 out the window. A Medic that, once he reaches 20% uber, will never drop below that, with negligible downsides, or any weapon that works with that gimmick, providing utility game-wide while only providing downsides for the weapon when the specific weapon is equipped? [B]that[/B] is bad weapon design. The Ubersaw is not badly designed, it's not unbalanced.
[QUOTE=Fluury;53044906]Because then I suppose the Diamondback, Frontier Justice, Eyelander etc. are alright - because these are based on the same principle - "Part of working with a team" -> goes in the same box as a Pyro reflecting a teammates rocket, eh?[/QUOTE]
No, Diamondback and FJ do not. Yes, Eyelander does. I don't get what you're trying to argue, in this very thread on the past few pages I've agreed with people that Diamondback and FJ are both poorly designed and, in their current states, could be considered overpowered. Using a false equivalency is kind of silly (and no, what I said wasn't false equivalency).
[QUOTE=Fluury;53044906]Just because a flaw is available in other weapons doesnt mean its fine to inject it into future weapons.[/QUOTE]
What does that have to do with Ubersaw balance discussion? It doesn't have a flaw in the first place, and this kind of thinking is why balance discussion here can be so hard.
You can't base proper balance discussion on "It doesn't feel good", or "I don't like it", and only take the stance of a player on the receiving end. There have to be "doesn't feel good" moments for there to be "does feel good" moments. Maybe on your end, getting melee'd to death by a Medic was a bad feeling and WTF MEDIC OP WHY HE DO SO MUCH DAMAGE, but on that Medic's side of the confrontation, he just barely escaped death by careful use of his melee and in all respects, should actually be dead, because his only effect combat range is melee, which is a trait shared by every class and therefore is an equal ground. It's not hard to avoid Medic's melee range.
The only context I could see "Ubersaw is annoying and overpowered" being an actual fair argument is when a Spy gets stabbed by the Medic, but that's a discussion for Spy being weak/having way too high of a comparative skill ceiling for such a low reward output, not Ubersaw being OP.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53045047]When will the Sniper problem be fully addressed and dealt with.[/QUOTE]
Ideally, the next big update. Realistically, never. Sniper's been like this since the game released IIRC, and as painful as it is, I don't think they'll ever touch his strength.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53045030]Well, Sniper ought to be removed from the game. He's the only class I'm really not sure what to do with[/QUOTE]
You can't just remove a class though without it changing everything around them. In this instance, heavy would become more powerful indirectly because sniper is a class that's meant to be strong against him, taking advantage of his slower movement to quickly get rid of him with a well placed headshot, even when overhealed.
I always felt the biggest problem with sniper is the fact that in a game of close to midrange combatants that are hindered more on the inclusion of damage fall off, which effectively keeps them strong at specific ranges. It was extremely unhealthy to have a class that has potential endless range thanks to how crits don't suffer from damage fall off. I'd think the best solution to that is to cap the range on sniper so he still has to stay within a reasonable range to get high damage on the sniper, as long as it still allows him to preform as a sniper though. Maybe capping at around the distance from one battlements in 2fort to the other? Maybe a little bit longer perhaps? That would require testing honestly.
Not to mention the only counter play at distance that wasn't another sniper was just removed from that position because people didn't want to deal with it. Wrangler used to be a fairly good hurasser as well against snipers too, but was slowly nerfed over the years to be less effective as well.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53045047]When will the Sniper problem be fully addressed and dealt with.[/QUOTE]
Most likely... never... Wouldn't shock me in the slightest that you and the rest of us are going to have to deal with it till the end of TF2's life unless Valve states other wise honestly...
[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53045111]In this instance, heavy would become more powerful indirectly because sniper is a class that's meant to be strong against him, taking advantage of his slower movement to quickly get rid of him with a well placed headshot, even when overhealed.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much all the other classes can beat Heavy in one way or the other. You don't need a Sniper to take care of him. Demoman does just fine.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53045120]Pretty much all the other classes can beat Heavy in one way or the other. You don't need a Sniper to take care of him. Demoman does just fine.[/QUOTE]
Depends a little on situation. I find Heavy the most troubling when he's actively supported by his team in dealing with his short comings, in return he makes it a pain to get close with his miniguns.
This is when I would normally run sniper to try and deal with him and/or his team from a distance behind mine.
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