[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53045067]It isn't at all. The point you're arguing is that Ubersaw feels bad because Medic builds uber faster by hitting teammates with it, yes? Again, on a grand scale, that's the entire foundation of team-based video games, but more in line with what you're talking about, you can't just say a weapon is unbalanced because it's "unfun" and "punishes you for mistakes your teammates make". If you're looking for a game that doesn't have features that punish you for your teammate's mistakes, play solo FPS games like the new Doom, or fighting games. Ubersaw isn't unbalanced just because it "punishes you for your teammates fucking up". A medic is at risk using it, it's arguably weaker than his default melee, and it is a weapon with a fairly middle skill ceiling, it's not like any shitty Medic can use it and get a free uber off of it. in fact, the Vita-saw got balanced because literally any Medic that equipped it was in an advantageous position for just using it over other melees, and now it's similar to the Ubersaw in that it requires player input to get a rewarding skill-base outputs.
We should break it down even farther and take a perspective of a much wider context, say, an actual match. A Medic getting uber 10 seconds faster because he melee'd a Spy that was too close isn't throwing the balance of TF2 out the window. A Medic that, once he reaches 20% uber, will never drop below that, with negligible downsides, or any weapon that works with that gimmick, providing utility game-wide while only providing downsides for the weapon when the specific weapon is equipped? [B]that[/B] is bad weapon design. The Ubersaw is not badly designed, it's not unbalanced.
[/QUOTE]
..Weaker than the Bonesaw? The Ubersaw? Are we on same planets? Also once again you are using the "he might die" argument as to why the Ubersaw is apparently balanced - because he "might die" isnt a thing with the rest of the melees in his arsenal.
Apart from that; Yes, a Medic getting 25% Uber on one hit - and maybe even 50%, is throwing balance out of the window. These are very important seconds a lot of stuff could happen - and a Uber is the most gamechanging thing in TF2, you cant just say getting several percentages of it is "not really impactful"
How is that not unbalanced, especially in the context of his other melee weapons?
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53045067]
No, Diamondback and FJ do not. Yes, Eyelander does. I don't get what you're trying to argue, in this very thread on the past few pages I've agreed with people that Diamondback and FJ are both poorly designed and, in their current states, could be considered overpowered. Using a false equivalency is kind of silly (and no, what I said wasn't false equivalency).
[/QUOTE]
What I'm trying to argue is that people - like you - call the Diamondback and Frontier Justice poorly designed and overpowered largely because of the "Get smonked because of teammates mistakes". There are other fair arguments such as rewarding the class for something it normally does (Medic usually doesnt go for melee hits) or them not really sacrificing a lot (Diamondback downside is a pity 15% - but then again the 25% slower swing speed is also almost nothing.) - but the Ubersaw is just as frustrating, if not, even more frustrating than the FJ/DB because they dont just net you a kill but the most powerful ability
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53045067]
What does that have to do with Ubersaw balance discussion? It doesn't have a flaw in the first place, and this kind of thinking is why balance discussion here can be so hard.
You can't base proper balance discussion on "It doesn't feel good", or "I don't like it", and only take the stance of a player on the receiving end. There have to be "doesn't feel good" moments for there to be "does feel good" moments. Maybe on your end, getting melee'd to death by a Medic was a bad feeling and WTF MEDIC OP WHY HE DO SO MUCH DAMAGE, but on that Medic's side of the confrontation, he just barely escaped death by careful use of his melee and in all respects, should actually be dead, because his only effect combat range is melee, which is a trait shared by every class and therefore is an equal ground. It's not hard to avoid Medic's melee range.
The only context I could see "Ubersaw is annoying and overpowered" being an actual fair argument is when a Spy gets stabbed by the Medic, but that's a discussion for Spy being weak/having way too high of a comparative skill ceiling for such a low reward output, not Ubersaw being OP.
[/QUOTE]
I just explained why I believe the Ubersaw is a flawed weapon. I didn't base this on "medic hurts my fee fees" either. We can also use your argument for the Diamondback, too. Sure getting hit by a Diamondback crit might feel bad because he earned it by doing his job - but for the spy he just escaped death.
It doesn't feel good to lose that comp match because your Scout got cocky and the medic smonked him, losing you the entire game.
The Ubersaw is an overpowered weapon - and the only reason people are fine with it existing is because the weapon is fun to use and has some "big play" potential - which is fine by me, but atleast buff Stock or the other melees to it's level then, which might be some extreme buffs.
What I'm trying to tackle here is the hypocrisy some people have when debating "weapons that punish you for others mistake"
[QUOTE=Fluury;53045146]*entire quote cut because i don't want to take up the entire page*[/QUOTE]
Yes the Ubersaw is quite plainly and objectively weaker than the default Bonesaw. Read the stats. Use the weapon. It's plain as day.
There is no maybe. He only gets 25% from one hit, and that's the intended function. If he gets more, that's a bug and can't be used as an argument.
It isn't throwing balance out the window, explain why it is or don't bring it up.
Just because it's gamechanging doesn't mean it's breaking the balance by improving or detracting from the stat. Ubers also happen once every ~2 minutes if a Medic has Uber, are completely lost on death if the Medic doesn't have a Vita-saw, and are a core mechanic of the game.
I already explained why Ubersaw is not unbalanced at least twice.
Uh, no. We've explained multiple times that most of us agree the Diamondback and FJ are too strong because their downsides are too weak for the input they require to get their upsides. Diamondback has a negligible damage downside that literally doesn't matter if the Spy has the crits in the first place, adn crits are gained by backstabbing or sapping buildings, which aren't hard to do and are the core functions of Spy's kit, and that's unbalanced liek the original Soda Popper was that gave Scout meter for just moving. FJ only has 3 shots in its clip, even though 3 crit-powered shots will kill literally any class except maybe a Heavy being healed by a Medic that already had 450 health. They are different contexts and circumstances. The Ubersaw is not overpowered because you get 25% uber from a melee hit, as a Medic. Gaining free crits - which triple your damage output immediately in most cases - for downsides that actually don't matter in the context of gameplay is not the same as gaining Uber percentage from hitting enemies in melee range as a Medic.
If you're in melee range against a Medic and aren't a Spy or another Medic, chances are either you're going to die or the Medic is going to die. There is no reasonable situation (except for idle players which isn't a feasible argument) where a Medic will be in melee range and can just escape by getting a few free melees in, every class has a stronger method of dealing with the Medic than the Medic does his melee. Either the enemy non-Medic got outplayed/lagged out/dispatched by an attentive team/whatever, or the Medic got killed.
I already explained at length that [B]being frustrating does not equal being unbalanced.[/B]
You still haven't explained why Ubersaw is overpowered except by saying "it gives you uber on hit and uber is game-changing" and "it feels annoying to play against". Stop bringing up the Diamondback, it's doing nothing but discredting your argument that Ubersaw is imbalanced, there's no connection between the two weapons other than you think one is broken/OP and other people have mentioned that the other is broken/OP.
"A Scout might cost you the match because a Medic melee'd him" is not an actual argument or it could be used in literally, and I mean quite literally, [B]any[/B] context. Fish is overpowered because your Scout killed their Scout with it. Spy is overpowered because he killed a Scout and won the game for you. KGB is overpowered because Heavy melee-killed the Scout and got free crits. Suicide taunts like Soldier's kamikaze are OP because he killed the scout defending the point with it and won the match for his team.
There is no hypocrisy. There's silliness in people still arguing that because weapons feel bad to play against, they are unbalanced, but there's no hypocrisy. Almost everybody has articualted themselves fairly well over these issues. If you have an actual argument for Ubersaw, I'm all ears, and I'm sure the majority of the FP forum is as well, but at this point you've been using silly strawmen like "Well if the ubersaw isn't broken neither is the diamondback, i completely unrelated weapon with its own unique design flaws! take that!" and passive-aggressive snides.
Use actual arguments, please. Use deductive reasoning. Think it through. Actually try to use the weapons. Be thankful you're arguing things like this in a forum for a game where they could be feasible arguments, in games where you can only blame yourself/a stronger or better opponent for losses or bad time, arguments like this that amount to "I think it's unfun to play against" would get laughed at and dismissed at best. You have presented no actual arguments for the Ubersaw being overpowered other than "Uber is powerful", and choose to completely ignore the Medic being at his weakest in melee range and still managing to get the Uber percentage in the first place.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53045193]There is no maybe. He only gets 25% from one hit, and that's the intended function. If he gets more, that's a bug and can't be used as an argument.[/QUOTE]
"Only" 25% uber is 10 seconds of building time, at the maximum rate. 10 seconds means EVERYTHING. I don't know what you're talking about when you say it's weaker than the Bonesaw, which just does 65 damage at a range where the Medic should die 100% of the time.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53045197]"Only" 25% uber is 10 seconds of building time, at the maximum rate. 10 seconds means EVERYTHING. I don't know what you're talking about when you say it's weaker than the Bonesaw, which just does 65 damage at a range where the Medic should die 100% of the time.[/QUOTE]
It's literally objectively weaker because of its attack speed, and 10 seconds is not nearly as long as you think. A medic could feasibly sit in spawn healing afk teammates and get the same amount of uber without endangering himself.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53045193]-snip-[/QUOTE]
...The Ubersaw is weaker than the Bonesaw? ...Only 25% percent per hit? Are you hearing yourself right now?
I already explained why I believe the Ubersaw is throwing balance out of the window - you are getting the 1/4 of the most powerful and gamchanging ability in the game by hitting a dude with the trade-off of a lower swing speed, which quite literally doesnt matter as you'll mostly hit people maybe once or twice - And yes, it's on the same level. You get a free crit for an almost non-existant downside is about as unbalanced as gaining 1/4 of Uber for a non-existant downside. I already said why and I already mentioned arguments as to why that is the case and if you refuse to aknowledge them it aint my job to repeat them for the 5th time.
And for the third time, "he might die" is not an argument in this situation because every other melee has this "downside" aswell.
The connection between the Diamondback and the Ubersaw is that both have non-existant downsides and both give you a massive benefit which also fuck players up for something they had nothing to do with - which in turn is frustrating, that's the connection. The rest of what you said completely missed the point and is/or passive aggressive stuff which makes me feel like you don't even want to understand any of this.
So, to make it short and clear why the Ubersaw is an overpowered weapon - arguments, you know, which I have used 4 times so far.
- It's downside doesnt matter at all.
- You get 1/4 of the most ability in the game for hitting a dude.
That's it. These 10 Seconds of Uber you get are extremely important and you make them sound like nothing. You can't "sit in spawn afk" in a competitive match in the last few seconds of process to push that last. I cant even believe you unironically wrote that the Bonesaw is better than the Ubersaw...
Atleast you confirmed what Psycho told me, which is that when it comes to the Ubersaw, the only argument that people have is that "the medic might die". For the sake of this forum and lurkers I'll end this discussion here and just agree to disagree with ya but boy.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53045243]It's literally objectively weaker because of its attack speed, and 10 seconds is not nearly as long as you think. A medic could feasibly sit in spawn healing afk teammates and get the same amount of uber without endangering himself.[/QUOTE]
Let's say 10 seconds of uber building doesn't matter: Are you going to hold M1 using a melee weapon, or try to dodge enemy attacks and only strike when you're close enough? Because that slower swing speed actually has no effect at all if you're using melee correctly.
[editline]11th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53045243]A medic could feasibly sit in spawn healing afk teammates and get the same amount of uber without endangering himself.[/QUOTE]
AFK teammates? We're talking about competitive TF2. You say you're a Plat Heavy, surely you should understand that in any real game nobody is going to be AFK, and sitting in spawn is equivalent to throwing the game.
Literally nobody mentioned competitive until just now so I'll sum up my argument and why your arguments have literally made no sense.
If we're talking about competitive then the logic that "a scout just got melee killed by Medic" need not even apply. A coordinated team will kill the Scout faster than the Medic can even take out a melee weapon. If by some leap of logic the Medic does manage to melee the Scout before either the Scout kills the Medic with his 110 max meatshots or the Scout dies to his teammate, he's still going to have the longer attack speed time and he's still [B]in melee range against a class whose specialty is killing people in melee range.[/B] Soldier? Same deal, he has either his rockets to maintain distance, or a shotgun to deal more damage than the Medic can. Pyro and Heavy should be obvious. Demo has his pipes and his melee to deal more damage and also has more health and faster melee attack speed. Engineer shouldn't be in this position. Other Medic would be silly but the Medic with faster attack speed will win should he hit all of his melee attacks, and if the Ubersaw Medic survives, I'd say he earned that Uber. Sniper shouldn't be in the situation, like Engineer, and Spy, again, that's an argument for Spy being too weak and easy to spot out at higher tiers of play, which is for another time.
Maybe the argument "if it was the stock melee the Medic wouldn't have gotten anything from the one melee attack" has some merit (even though you can't ignore the actual fighting that occurs with melee weapon balance that goes into picking a melee), then what about the Hippocrates? What about the Vita-Saw, or the Amputator, which provide more consistent, less risky upsides with negligible downsides? Those are all stronger than the default stock melee. Why do we have to have a state an an argument that if a Melee provides too much utility outside of being a melee, then it's overpowered? Hasn't that literally been the state of every single class's melee since the game first got unique melee weapons? what's the problem with the Ubersaw presenting a very dangerous and risky approach to gaining extra uber? Where's the flaw? That it just gives uber? The thing that most competitive highlander matches literally rotate around, to the point where most stalemates are "who can get picks or get uber faster"? An offensive option that grants more uber with a very real risk of the Medic dying for his folly? Is that bad? Is that unbalanced? Or are you genuinely just upset that a Medic ubersaw team is running around pubs getting free uber melee hits or something like that? Because I can't for the life of me find a single, fruitful argument that the Ubersaw is overpowered.
A Medic in melee range is seemingly ignored by both of you even though it completely derails any argument you could have. As much as you'd hate to admit otherwise and point out wrong statements like "well, if the Medic is focusing on getting attacks at opportune times" like the Scout or Soldier or whomever is just going to let him focus on when the best time to strike would be, there's no feasible situation where Ubersaw giving 25% uber per successful enemy hit is overpowered.
And I'll say it one more time, for posterity: stop blowing this out of proportion, Ubersaw is not nearly as unbalanced as you think, if a Medic can get the uber percentage for using an objectively weaker melee weapon and hitting an enemy in a situation where every other class has more than enough capabilities to kill the Medic before he should be able to even take out his Ubersaw, then he earned it, use actual arguments, and stop being pitiful and passive-aggressively snide with your arguments. I'm here to have fruitful discussions, and the constant "well YOU'RE stupider" "nuh-uh what about this and that? that means YOU"RE stupider" arguments and the "well this gun isn't fun to play against!! it should be erased from existence forevar!!!!!!!!!!!" comments do nothing but waste time and prevent actual good balance discussion.
maybe not in comp, but in most games i play, melee is a vital tool of survival if spy or other close ranged classes get too close. i feel the fact the ubersaw can still provide a great defense, but also help provide uber, should be addressed at some point or another.
REAALLYYY big reason im excited for comp update. Once tf2 gets a comp scene, stats of high level play and usage of certain weapons will start actually matter, and i feel valve will finally start working on making all weapons perfect side-grades, which i've always been excited to see in tf2
The Ubersaw
+Gain 25% of remaining uncharged uber meter on hit
-25% swing speed
no random critical hits
from zero uber youll get 25% uber on hit 1, 18.75% uber on hit 2, 14% on the 3rd hit, and so on
diminishing returns based on your current uber %, rather than based on consecutive swings (a stat I've heard suggested before) or a raw value (the current stat)
becomes literally impossible to fill an uber with an ubersaw swing unless you're at 99% (where it likely rounds the figure up to the nearest 1) and becomes less useful at higher uber %, but a swing at low uber can give you a good headstart
I mean comparing ubersaw and stock kind of ignores the context of the melee slot. In the majority of class's melee slots the utility options are effectively straight upgrades to stock, because lower melee dps barely affects most classes.
Scout: Atomizer/Basher
Soldier: Disciplinary Action/Escape Plan
Pyro: Powerjack/Backscratcher
Heavy: GRU/FoS
Medic: Ubersaw and maybe vitasaw? Don't really have a feel for the new vita yet.
The other classes either have some special melee functionality on stock, or never gotten a utility melee weapon.
So framing any melee weapon as "It's better than stock so it's overpowered" usually doesn't make sense. Any melee weapon that's at all interesting is probably going to be better than stock just because of how melee works. If we just nerfed all the interesting melee weapons to compensate it would just make the game more boring. Usually when discussing weapons where stock is underpowered it's more informative to compare everything to the viable options rather than comparing them to stock. Otherwise you end up with awful situations like the Solemn Vow, where one of the weakest melee weapons for medic was nerfed to be even LESS effective because it was technically a straight upgrade to stock, even though in practice ALL of the bonesaws are a straight upgrade to stock. That's not to say there's not a design problem there, after all new players shouldn't be at an outright disadvantage, but the solution in these cases is probably to come up with a utility buff to stock, or maybe merge stock with one of the other staple melees, rather than nerfing the better melees.
That being said, this doesn't necessarily mean that a melee weapon CAN'T be overpowered, and I'm not necessarily arguing either way with respect to the ubersaw. I'm just saying that balancing around stock isn't the best choice when stock is inherently underwhelming and boring.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53045428]Otherwise you end up with awful situations like the Solemn Vow, where one of the weakest melee weapons for medic was nerfed to be even LESS effective because it was technically a straight upgrade to stock, even though in practice ALL of the bonesaws are a straight upgrade to stock.[/QUOTE]
Not to diminish your point, but Solemn Vow is actually banned in 6s because its effect is too powerful. It's still a straight upgrade.
[editline]11th January 2018[/editline]
Map idea:
KOTH, but larger than normal. Time limits are 10 minutes (could be tweaked) for each team. While a team has the point, they have a forward spawn, however, there are many flanking pathways in the map to help the opposing team get the point back, etc etc.
i want no random crits on my ubersaw for the sake of more uber
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53045507]i want no random crits on my ubersaw for the sake of more uber[/QUOTE]
when the tf2 team removes random crits forever that won't matter
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53045519]when the tf2 team removes random crits forever that won't matter[/QUOTE]
11 years later and we're all still holding our breath.
what if booties had a equip restriction with shields? at least there wouldn't be "demos" wasting player slots anymore. it's such a unsustainable loadout.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53045439]Not to diminish your point, but Solemn Vow is actually banned in 6s because its effect is too powerful. It's still a straight upgrade.
[editline]11th January 2018[/editline]
Map idea:
KOTH, but larger than normal. Time limits are 10 minutes (could be tweaked) for each team. While a team has the point, they have a forward spawn, however, there are many flanking pathways in the map to help the opposing team get the point back, etc etc.[/QUOTE]
10 minutes would be way too long. Sounds like it could be an interesting concept to use on normally CP maps if modified properly, like how Badlands has a (shitty) KOTH variant.
There is an insane amount of hackers in this game right now. I was just playing in a casual party with friends and we had like 5+ games of hackers in each one.
and here i am enjoying 3 hour long firefights in powerhouse.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53045533]10 minutes would be way too long. Sounds like it could be an interesting concept to use on normally CP maps if modified properly, like how Badlands has a (shitty) KOTH variant.[/QUOTE]
I think the concept needs an original map first. Here's a layout I made in MS Paint in like.. 10 minutes.
note: it's supposed to be symmetrical :v:
also: control point is not to scale
[t]https://i.imgur.com/MtRGlbB.png[/t]
Corner spawns are when the team hasn't captured the point. Center spawns are when the team has captured the point. Obviously this map just shows playable area, therefore it only really shows chokes and flanks, but I think the idea has promise. Gray boxes represent indoor areas.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53045533]10 minutes would be way too long. Sounds like it could be an interesting concept to use on normally CP maps if modified properly, like how Badlands has a (shitty) KOTH variant.[/QUOTE]
KOTH_Badlands is fucking terrible. The only KOTH map I hate more is KOTH_King. Followed by the release version of Suijin.
If Heavy won the war, what special skin do you think we would have gotten instead of dragon slayer?
edit: if they were going to use yetis if Heavy won maybe yeti coated would have been it, or an ice dragon paint.
Does anyone know if enabling tf_use_fixed_weaponspreads affects minigun bullet spread? A couple scout mains are pestering me to set that cvar to one on my server.
[QUOTE=Ultravod;53045648]Does anyone know if enabling tf_use_fixed_weaponspreads affects minigun bullet spread? A couple scout mains are pestering me to set that cvar to one on my server.[/QUOTE]
no it doesn't affect miniguns in any shape
what, do they think you only hit them because of randomized off-center bullets? that's comical
Is the player model moving faster than the hitbox when using the Baby Face's Blaster at high boost a TF2 specific issue or does it affect all Source games when moving at high speeds?
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53045439]Not to diminish your point, but Solemn Vow is actually banned in 6s because its effect is too powerful.[/QUOTE]
Out of curiousity, what's their reasoning for this? I would have thought people would have a decent idea of who's low anyway because of callouts whenever you heavily damage somebody.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53045680]Out of curiousity, what's their reasoning for this? I would have thought people would have a decent idea of who's low anyway because of callouts whenever you heavily damage somebody.[/QUOTE]
If I recall correctly it lets Medics see the enemy Medic's Ubercharge level, which removes the skill of predicting when the Medic's Uber is full.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53045030]Well, Sniper ought to be removed from the game. He's the only class I'm really not sure what to do with[/QUOTE]
That is not going to happen.
[QUOTE=ASIC;53045700]That is not going to happen.[/QUOTE]
A man can dream...
[QUOTE=ASIC;53045700]That is not going to happen.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't mean it constructively shouldn't.
If sniper's kit was replaced with another high-skill one, befitting the midrange combat this game was designed to function around, we'd be in a better place.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;53045748]That doesn't mean it constructively shouldn't.
If sniper's kit was replaced with another high-skill one, befitting the midrange combat this game was designed to function around, we'd be in a better place.[/QUOTE]
Depends on if you want a complete overhaul of the class... If that's the case I wouldn't hold my breath... That would require way more work then the Pyro received from this update, all while trying to keep class balances in check so that classes that sniper should be countering don't become broken, as well as the sniper himself not becoming better at dealing with his own counters easier. Scout and Medic were probably the largest changes to a class back when they were transitioning from TFC to TF2 and back then they had a larger team to do it with.
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