[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53045774]Depends on if you want a complete overhaul of the class... If that's the case I wouldn't hold my breath... That would require way more work then the Pyro received from this update, all while trying to keep class balances in check so that classes that sniper should be countering don't become broken, as well as the sniper himself not becoming better at dealing with his own counters easier. Scout and Medic were probably the largest changes to a class back when they were transitioning from TFC to TF2 and back then they had a larger team to do it with.[/QUOTE]
What classes should sniper be countering? Once upon a time it was heavy, but I hardly think current state heavies would become a problem without snipers around.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;53045748]That doesn't mean it constructively shouldn't.
If sniper's kit was replaced with another high-skill one, befitting the midrange combat this game was designed to function around, we'd be in a better place.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, if Huntsman (make hitbox smaller, other tweaks) were his stock weapon (and all new weapons were based on it, and he had 150 health + a bit more mobility), I'd be completely fine with him as a class.
[QUOTE=Mockingbird;53045819]What classes should sniper be countering? Once upon a time it was heavy, but I hardly think current state heavies would become a problem without snipers around.[/QUOTE]
Heavy's and enemy snipers are probably the strongest points. It's a safe assumption that since there valuable sniper specific items in the game the class will never be out right removed unless they want to have a horribly large backlash from the community.
I'm waiting to see how GRU being white listed as well in games if it does allow heavies to be run to mid more often. Just to see how much of an impact it has on the competitive scene.
Lastly though, a lot of people still want heavy to become buffed in a sense that he's more capable in the future as well do they not? If they remove sniper that could potentially become a problem in it's own right. Imagine if Heavy gets changed to be more effective like pyro did and sniper was removed from the game lol. If a huge part of the community hated heavy back when Tomislav first came out, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he would be getting a similar backlash then.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53045827]Honestly, if Huntsman (make hitbox smaller, other tweaks) were his stock weapon (and all new weapons were based on it, and he had 150 health + a bit more mobility), I'd be completely fine with him as a class.[/QUOTE]
I would image a rifleman would be more appropriate. Instead of sniping with a single shot rifle to deal high amount of damage dependent on charge and location of hit. He would have a semi auto rifle that had a 5-10 clip that did a decent amount of damage at mid to semi-long range instead. It would give people time to react ( no more one shot kill mechanics ) but still do high amount of burst damage if you can keep landing shots over and over again instead. But changes like this would probably have had to be implemented from the start... If it was a new weapon, people wouldn't touch it over stand sniper rifles and removing sniper rifles would just bring an uproar from the community.
[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53045829]Heavy's and enemy snipers are probably the strongest points. It's a safe assumption that since there valuable sniper specific items in the game the class will never be out right removed unless they want to have a horribly large backlash from the community.
I'm waiting to see how GRU being white listed as well in games if it does allow heavies to be run to mid more often.
Lastly though, a lot of people still want heavy to become buffed in a sense that he's more capable in the future as well do they not? If they remove sniper that could potentially become a problem in it's own right. Imagine if Heavy gets changed to be more effective like pyro did and sniper was removed from the game lol. If a huge part of the community hated heavy back when Tomislav first came out, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he would be getting a similar backlash then.[/QUOTE]
If Heavy becomes too powerful, with the [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1503809&p=52928717&viewfull=1#post52928717"]buffs[/URL] he's needed for a long, long time, buff the other classes. But Demoman will likely still trash him no matter what.
[editline]12th January 2018[/editline]
Speaking of things that should happen to Heavy, how about a shield?
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52978371]Defender (Shield Primary)
(i) On MOUSE2: Raise Shield. While shield is raised, damage taken from the front is reduced by 75%.
(i) On MOUSE1: Shield Bash. This is a heavy bash of the shield that does 100 damage and small knockback at close range.
(+) Shield can be raised while using other weapons, such as the Shotgun.
(+) Shield bashing as a projectile is near the shield will deflect it back at the enemy
(-) 50% reduced movement speed while shield is raised.
The idea of a shield for the Heavy hasn't been controversial, really. Very requested, in fact, but I haven't yet seen a set of stats that really made me think "wow! this idea is cool!". So I decided to make what I'd like to see in the game: A shield that can be used to great effect as a weapon and defensive tool.
The label "100 damage" is in reality a placeholder, and I also don't know what the attack interval would be. The point is that getting close to the Heavy using this thing would put you in big trouble, and being far away from the Heavy using this thing would be pointless.
MOUSE2 should have basically no delay between shielding and not shielding. The player would not be able to use the MOUSE2 function of this weapon while using the Sandvich, etc, but would be able to use it with Heavy's melee weapons (you'd just use the right arm) as well as the Shotguns. The "projectiles get deflected" stat would likely be in something like half of airblast's range.[/QUOTE]
you dont have to make up a shield idea, [URL="http://media.steampowered.com/apps/tf2/theshowdown/images/comic/2048x1536/007.jpg?v=3"]it's quite clearly coming wheter we like it or not.[/URL]
there's no reason they spent so much emphasis on those images when it served zero purpose.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53045871]you dont have to make up a shield idea, [URL="http://media.steampowered.com/apps/tf2/theshowdown/images/comic/2048x1536/007.jpg?v=3"]it's quite clearly coming wheter we like it or not.[/URL]
there's no reason they spent so much emphasis on those images when it served zero purpose.[/QUOTE]
Counterpoint, from the big man himself:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/BValKIp.png[/img]
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53045871]you dont have to make up a shield idea, [URL="http://media.steampowered.com/apps/tf2/theshowdown/images/comic/2048x1536/007.jpg?v=3"]it's quite clearly coming wheter we like it or not.[/URL]
there's no reason they spent so much emphasis on those images when it served zero purpose.[/QUOTE]
We can hope. The point of that post was more to emphasize how I'd want it done. Bashing someone in the head with a shield should do more damage than punching them in the face.
what do we do about sandwich being better than everything
Give Heavy a reason to use his other weapons
AKA give him a Riot Shield primary replacement
[QUOTE=Intermission;53045929]what do we do about sandwich being better than everything[/QUOTE]
We already have the banana which is an okay sidegrade for quick minor healing on the go.
Personally one indirect way to make his secondaries valuable is give him a minigun that allows him to switch away while spun up.
I'm not sure what other stats you'd give it to make it fair, but just that option alone you can disengage whilst still pumping out damage or switch away to return to normal speed to get closer while dishing out the shotgun damage.
Another choice is obviously rebalance current secondaries and give him a competitor over the sandvich, as said before a shield which gives him resistances from the front and some sort of weakness so it's not a medic + heavy powerhouse weapon.
Personally weakness from damage taken from behind and an additional inability to gain overheal would be a solid disadvantage to avert every heavy running it, but it'd definitely be good enough to make some think otherwise.
In addition I'd like to see one [I](if he gets multiple secondaries, which I doubt)[/I] of his secondaries be more support focused.
Be it a weak little kind of buff banner that aids his team in some way [I](think of that dispenser backpack thing)[/I] or a throwable that can help engineers like the ammo box weapon shown on Karma Charger's channel.
Just anything to encourage players to try alternative playstyles, instead of the [I]'hold down M1 mobile sentry 24/7 dustbowl stomper'[/I] that heavy gets joked to be.
[QUOTE=Intermission;53046098]what about steak chocolate and shot guns[/QUOTE]
Stock shotgun is fine as it is, as suggested before you'd need to change the core way heavy is played to make use of them.
Family Business is in a safe area where it's good but not better than stock in some situations.
Panic Attack is...Meh, the change that it got has kinda removed any amount of usefulness it had on any class. Once had a gimmick that saw the light of day here and there but this new change has made it just worse than stock in pretty much every way.
How to fix it? I have no clue, they clearly wanted to get rid of the [I]'do better when on low health'[/I] gimmick. Perhaps they should do another wipe of the stats and create something new, use the model for suggestions like a bigger clip size or something...
Steak is iffy, right now it's in that space of [I]"It's a joke weapon"[/I] even after the removal of increased damage taken while active. If they want to stick with the mini-crit gimmick I think it'll always be that way.
And I have no clue what to do with it to make it useful, different from the other consumables and still be fair.
Dalokos is pretty much on the same boat, it has its moments but is pointless when you have at least one medic on your team. Give it a sugar rush effect alongside the stats it currently has, perhaps that'd make it used more often.
what about steak chocolate and shot guns
I don't want to jump in this argument but, you are supposed to be punished for your team mate's mistakes it's part of every team based game, just like a scout walking into an ubersaw, a medic walking into a trap, getting cocky and dropping uber, or other team mates feeding will lose you a game, you're playing competitively, don't play with people that make those mistakes
Of course, some weapons take this to an extreme, even if not overpowered like eyelander, airstrike bazaar bargain etc, some people find it unfun to play against, I don't myself
when judging a weapon if it's overpowered or not, you typically compare it to its stock counterpart if it functions the same, and with that it doesn't take a genius to tell the ubersaw is overpowered, it's a slightly weaker melee, the one kind of weapon that you never use, which rewards you for making risky plays with the one thing that makes you useful class
And I don't see that part needing a nerf, it rarely works anyway, but it would be nice if it had a real downside like a 50% damage reduction or something, so you're taking a bigger risk and whoever is chasing you has a better chance to kill you
Weapons in 6s aren't banned for being overpowered (crossbow, ubersaw, gunboats, escape plan ), but for either removing needed skill/making a class boring (solemn vow), allowing a class to do something it shouldn't at no real cost (crit a cola), being too unfun to fight against (reserve shooter, natascha, jarate, sydney sleeper) or making the game boring/increasing stalemates (vaccinator, quick fix)
A while back, I was contemplating suggesting that the sandvich gets its old ability to self-heal from the ground back but it ALWAYS heals 50% hp, even if eaten using the taunt (or making the taunt a purely cosmetic thing). Then the banan came out and complicated this idea.
A different idea could be making it more like the gas passer.
Other lunch boxes could be buffed by giving them bonus effects for sharing, like the steak gives a short speed boost and the dalok can overheal teammates. I've been a fan of the ideas to have heavy move a bit faster with his secondary or melee out and giving him a shield primary.
[editline]12th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53045890]Counterpoint, from the big man himself:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/BValKIp.png[/img][/QUOTE]
seeing as pyro only got one gun out of four weapons, it can be assumed heavy could've gotten something similar.
I don't know why we're discussing this when there was never any confirmation either way of an upcoming Heavy update. Any plans Valve may have had for a Heavy-centric update were probably scrapped after he lost the war, with whatever meager balances they had in mind absorbed into Jungle Inferno.
The next update will release in ten months--it will be Meet Your Match 2: Slightly Less Disappointment (maybe).
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53046239]I don't know why we're discussing this when there was never any confirmation either way of an upcoming Heavy update. Any plans Valve may have had for a Heavy-centric update were probably scrapped after he lost the war, with whatever meager balances they had in mind absorbed into Jungle Inferno.[/QUOTE]
They said that they'd do the Pyro Update first due to him winning the war and later on they would do Heavy's update. That was the whole point of the war to begin with.
Valve does not say that authoritatively, the statement in question is ambivalent and therefore inconclusive.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53045428]I mean comparing ubersaw and stock kind of ignores the context of the melee slot. In the majority of class's melee slots the utility options are effectively straight upgrades to stock, because lower melee dps barely affects most classes.
Scout: Atomizer/Basher
Soldier: Disciplinary Action/Escape Plan
Pyro: Powerjack/Backscratcher
Heavy: GRU/FoS
Medic: Ubersaw and maybe vitasaw? Don't really have a feel for the new vita yet.
The other classes either have some special melee functionality on stock, or never gotten a utility melee weapon.
So framing any melee weapon as "It's better than stock so it's overpowered" usually doesn't make sense. Any melee weapon that's at all interesting is probably going to be better than stock just because of how melee works. If we just nerfed all the interesting melee weapons to compensate it would just make the game more boring. Usually when discussing weapons where stock is underpowered it's more informative to compare everything to the viable options rather than comparing them to stock. Otherwise you end up with awful situations like the Solemn Vow, where one of the weakest melee weapons for medic was nerfed to be even LESS effective because it was technically a straight upgrade to stock, even though in practice ALL of the bonesaws are a straight upgrade to stock. That's not to say there's not a design problem there, after all new players shouldn't be at an outright disadvantage, but the solution in these cases is probably to come up with a utility buff to stock, or maybe merge stock with one of the other staple melees, rather than nerfing the better melees.
That being said, this doesn't necessarily mean that a melee weapon CAN'T be overpowered, and I'm not necessarily arguing either way with respect to the ubersaw. I'm just saying that balancing around stock isn't the best choice when stock is inherently underwhelming and boring.[/QUOTE]
That's bad, though. The reason why I'm bringing up the Uber-Saw is because it's by far the most "overpowered" of those melees(still incredibly dazzled by someone saying its worse than the Bonesaw "objectively") and the only downside people find in it is "he might die" which applies to every fucking melee the medic has which is why it isnt an argument - then again I said this like 5 times now. Then there is the entire "get fucked for others mistakes" but we went past that already.
TF2 has a melee balancing problem because Utility will rule over combat any day. An idea I had was just making every stock weapon (but the Wrench and Knife) give the player a 10% movement speed increase - that way, stock would be utility, and the Ubersaw would have an actual downside(even though will likely stay bonkers).
Then you go on balancing melee weapons in two directions; Utility and Combat, while Stock stays a hybrid of both.
The -20% swing speed is such a minor penalty for 25% uber gain on hit upside.
Someone actually tried the item verification scam with me earlier today.
South America doesn't have the cat/lmaobox problem, but the playerbase is extremely toxic. No matter if you're playing on the dusty rocks of Badwater or capping the snowy point in Coldfront, someone will find a way to make sure his team experiences true pain. At least we have the mute player button.
[QUOTE=FalconHBFS;53046566]South America doesn't have the cat/lmaobox problem, but the playerbase is extremely toxic. No matter if you're playing on the dusty rocks of Badwater or capping the snowy point in Coldfront, someone will find a way to make sure his team experiences true pain. At least we have the mute player button.[/QUOTE]
Nah. They're pretty tame to be honest. That kind of shit only gets under your skin if you let it.
PS: gane solo.
[QUOTE=Metaru;53046590]Nah. They're pretty tame to be honest. That kind of shit only gets under your skin if you let it.
PS: gane solo.[/QUOTE]
They're fun to duel against though, one or two kills and they're yelling about stuff on chat or claiming you're a 0 skill guy. Bonus point if they bring a pocket and still fail.
PS: isi pisi
I think as far as weapon balancing and design goes the Direct Hit is by far the best example available in the game.
Viable Side-grade to the Rocket Launcher that not only offers a unique approach on combat but is also not straight out better [I]or[/I] worse than Stock - there is a reason this gem hasnt been touched since it's release - No extreme gimmicks(the airshot thing might be one but its a good gimmick to say the least) - actual downsides to using it, no punishing for other peoples mistakes - if you die to the Direct Hit, it's your and only your fault.
--------------------------------
As far as this entire discussion went I think at the end "storing" weapons seem to be [I]only[/I] accepted if they require the class to go out of their way and do something which they normally don't do (Ubersaw, Eyelander require you to get melee hits/kills which are risky and not the classes main job) or if it comes with a major downside(Banners being useless unless charged).
The only weapons which fall under that set are the Frontier Justice, Diamondback, Bazaar Bargain, Air-Strike, Manmelter, Soda-Popper and Phlog - and would you look at that these are really stupid weapons that are often being complained about, except the Manmelter and Bazaar Bargain for some reason. Would like to see those being aimed at for the next balancing patch. And the Ubersaw and the rest of the "Slot-Wonders" (Crossbow/Sandvich etc.) - even though Id rather prefer stock and the rest to be upgraded to their level.
[QUOTE=ASIC;53046517]Someone actually tried the item verification scam with me earlier today.[/QUOTE]
Is that the one were they need someone to verify if an item isn't duped or glitched and call an admin to check it out?
[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;53046664]Is that the one were they need someone to verify if an item isn't duped or glitched and call an admin to check it out?[/QUOTE]
Yeah. That's the one.
[QUOTE=ASIC;53046686]Yeah. That's the one.[/QUOTE]
I got two people asking to call for an admin as of late towards my unusual taunts to check if they're glitched / duped / ect. recently myself. I declined both of those offers immediately too... Never even heard of glitched unusual taunts actually. Not like we couldn't just go on a server and check it out. BP.TF can be used for duped nonsense as well...
the fact that pyro got four weapons and heavy got one in JI makes me think valve already at least had the weapons planned when starting the war, and if heavy won, pyro would've probably gotten the gas passer as a consolation prize in heavy's update, so I'm guessing heavy is at least going to get 3 new weapons when his update finally arrives
[QUOTE=rolfum;53046990]the fact that pyro got four weapons and heavy got one in JI makes me think valve already at least had the weapons planned when starting the war, and if heavy won, pyro would've probably gotten the gas passer as a consolation prize in heavy's update, so I'm guessing heavy is at least going to get 3 new weapons when his update finally arrives[/QUOTE]
But nothing is certain,for all we know the heavy could get balance changes and nothing else.
[QUOTE=Big Snake Bos;53047085]But nothing is certain,for all we know the heavy could get balance changes and nothing else.[/QUOTE]
Valve isn't that stupid. They promised a Heavy update after the Pyro one, it's going to be on the same scale, minus maybe the huge amount of balance changes they did to different class weapons that weren't Pyro.
If there's one thing Valve can be held to, it's keep promises of updates, even if they turn out shitty. it took ~4 years to get every class update, but we got them all. It took a while for End of the Line, and it was probably the shittiest major update in the game's history, but we got it. There's no reason to be so hum-glum and constantly nay say other than to annoy other people. Chances are we're getting a Heavy-themed update. It may take years, and it may just be giving him 4 more taunts than the other classes, but it'll be an update.
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