[QUOTE=Fluury;53046619]I think as far as weapon balancing and design goes the Direct Hit is by far the best example available in the game.
Viable Side-grade to the Rocket Launcher that not only offers a unique approach on combat but is also not straight out better [I]or[/I] worse than Stock - there is a reason this gem hasnt been touched since it's release - No extreme gimmicks(the airshot thing might be one but its a good gimmick to say the least) - actual downsides to using it, no punishing for other peoples mistakes - if you die to the Direct Hit, it's your and only your fault.
--------------------------------
As far as this entire discussion went I think at the end "storing" weapons seem to be [I]only[/I] accepted if they require the class to go out of their way and do something which they normally don't do (Ubersaw, Eyelander require you to get melee hits/kills which are risky and not the classes main job) or if it comes with a major downside(Banners being useless unless charged).
The only weapons which fall under that set are the Frontier Justice, Diamondback, Bazaar Bargain, Air-Strike, Manmelter, Soda-Popper and Phlog [/QUOTE]
Not sure I entirely understand your argument about these weapons. I think the issues with a lot of these weapons are completely different from one another to be honest and grouping them together doesn't make much sense.
Some storing weapons, like the banners, work pretty much the same as cooldown weapons like jarate, but more extreme. The bonuses of a buff banner are much larger than those of jarate, but it requires you to stay alive for a while near the front lines in order for you to make use of it. Bigger upside, but with a longer cooldown and a higher skill floor. This "banner" category encompasses stuff like the phlog, the frontier justice, ubercharge, all the soldier banners, and the diamondback. Generally speaking I don't think the "you're punishing me for someone else's mistakes" argument holds much water when referring to this category, because the weapon is inherently designed with the assumption that the player is going to periodically get a big bonus at the expense of being weaker for the rest of the time. Unless an engi is trash garbage he's going to get kills with his sentry, just like unless the soldier is trash garbage he's going to be dealing damage. You can focus them down when they don't have the bonus yet, or retreat when they're about to get the bonus. Phlog pyros and FJ engis are going to have a much harder time defending themselves with no airblast and -50% clip size respectively. The general design is perfectly reasonable.
The design problem some of these weapons have doesn't have to do with "punishing you for a teammates' mistake", the design problem comes from a completely unrelated issue of some of these weapons not telegraphing things well enough. FJ crits can be hidden by switching to another weapon, and unlike the banners they don't make a loud noise or require a separate animation to be activated. I gave a suggestion for how to change this a couple pages ago. Diamondback similarly doesn't telegraph things, and comes with the added issue of just being a fucking huge bonus. Being able to two shot everybody at long range is pretty nuts. Phlog is mostly alright imo, it's telegraphed well. The only issue is that the pyro can spam people with flares from the backline and get the crits without ever really taking any risks. That's also a completely different issue from the telegraphing concerns with the diamondback and FJ.
Meanwhile, there's a completely different class of weapons you're lumping in with these banner style weapons. Stuff like the eyelander, air strike, and the Bazaar Bargain that store heads work nothing like the banner weapons. They start out with a hefty downside, such as the bazaar bargain's -50% charge speed, the air strike's lower DPS and AoE or the eyelander's lower health (and implicit need to replace your stickybomb launcher to be effective). Then, the longer you stay alive, the stronger you get, until you gain a big permanent bonus. Now, with the eyelander, you actually still have downsides that make for a semi-reasonable tradeoff even at the strongest level of the weapon. The eyelander requires you to give up the stickybomb launcher to be effective. The others are pretty much just way better versions than stock when at the highest level. The counterplay is that if you kill them before they get to high levels, they end up worse off than if they had stock, but the problem is that once they get to high levels they're much, much harder to kill. Weapons with these design flaws are closer to the "punishing you for a teammates' mistake" issue that people complain about, since they're permanent buffs. You can't just retreat and wait for an Air strike soldier to lose his clip size buff, because the buff isn't going to go away until you kill him. Your teammates can basically remove the one big counterplay against these weapons by feeding the enemy before you have time to take them out. These weapons could probably some redesigns to make their buffs temporary.
tl;dr lumping all these weapons together as having the same problem makes no sense and ignores their actual design issues.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53047254]The eyelander requires you to give up the stickybomb launcher to be effective.[/QUOTE]
err no lol
can easily get 4 heads from bad spies and scouts in any pub
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53047260]err no lol
can easily get 4 heads from bad spies and scouts in any pub[/QUOTE]
You can get med picks with the short circuit in a pub. I still wouldn't call it an [I]effective[/I] strategy.
Though I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a mechanic to make sticky launcher eyelander demos less likely to occur
Speaking of the Eyelander, it's weird how it and the Equalizer were added in the same update, but they have completely different blood textures on them. The Eyelander also looks a bit more realistic I guess.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53047274]Speaking of the Eyelander, it's weird how it and the Equalizer were added in the same update, but they have completely different blood textures on them. The Eyelander also looks a bit more realistic I guess.[/QUOTE]
The equalizer's blood texture was added way later than the weapon was added to the game. The escape plan and equalizer used to be one weapon, until they were split into two years down the line. The escape plan got the old texture and the equalizer got the new one.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53047277]The equalizer's blood texture was added way later than the weapon was added to the game. The escape plan and equalizer used to be one weapon, until they were split into two years down the line. The escape plan got the old texture and the equalizer got the new one.[/QUOTE]
Didn't know that, I thought the Escape Plan got the new texture when the split happened.
I wish they did something different for the equalizer than split it only because now I use neither of them, ever. The Escape Plan is way too risky seeing how it puts a giant skull over your head saying "Hey, shoot me!", and the Equalizer is effectively useless compared to the Market Gardener.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53045932]Give Heavy a reason to use his other weapons
AKA give him a Riot Shield primary replacement[/QUOTE]
i am heavy useless guy
and this
is my dead weight
[QUOTE=ikes;53047309]i am heavy useless guy
and this
is my dead weight[/QUOTE]
- Somebody who has no concept of teamwork or tanks, may they rest in peace, 2017-2017
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53047313]- Somebody who has no concept of teamwork or tanks, may they rest in peace, 2017-2017[/QUOTE]
uber me doctor, my shotgun is fully loaded
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53045871]you dont have to make up a shield idea, [URL="http://media.steampowered.com/apps/tf2/theshowdown/images/comic/2048x1536/007.jpg?v=3"]it's quite clearly coming wheter we like it or not.[/URL]
there's no reason they spent so much emphasis on those images when it served zero purpose.[/QUOTE]
toxx it
[QUOTE=ikes;53047321]uber me doctor, my shotgun is fully loaded[/QUOTE]
Sorry, let me correct myself,
- Somebody who has no concept of teamwork, tanks, or ubering a Demoman, may they rest in peace, 2017-2017
ikes means that a class who doesn't have a primary gun is pretty bad and probably wastes a slot, and that's very true.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53047330]ikes means that a class who doesn't have a primary gun is pretty bad and probably wastes a slot, and that's very true.[/QUOTE]
Demoknight
[QUOTE=Zadrave;53047299]The Escape Plan is way too risky[/QUOTE]
I don't know about that. It's pretty much the only weapon 6s Soldiers use, and they often get out of bad situations just fine with it.
[editline]12th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zadrave;53047335]Demoknight[/QUOTE]
Yes, demoknight wastes a slot
[QUOTE=Zadrave;53047335]Demoknight[/QUOTE]
if youre talking about the GL knight, that's still workable
if youre talking about uhh "full knight" then yes that's terrible
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53047330]ikes means that a class who doesn't have a primary gun is pretty bad and probably wastes a slot, and that's very true.[/QUOTE]
Have literally none of you played a game like Overwatch where tanks without primary weapons very much exist? I expected people to bring up Reinhardt more than to just say "lol ok useless Heavy".
I don't see how a riot shield primary is useful when the two most powerful classes in the game have splash damage and vertical mobility
You just want to make a slower tankier scout?
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53047356]Have literally none of you played a game like Overwatch where tanks without primary weapons very much exist? I expected people to bring up Reinhardt more than to just say "lol ok useless Heavy".[/QUOTE]
I haven't. but tf2 isn't a game of tanking, since there's crits and 2 classes dedicated to one-shotting everyone.
bonk and deadringer are better tanks than heavy
[QUOTE=Waffle Lord;53047361]I don't see how a riot shield primary is useful when the two most powerful classes in the game have splash damage and vertical mobility[/QUOTE]
You can look up
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53047369]I haven't. but tf2 isn't a game of tanking, since there's crits and 2 classes dedicated to one-shotting everyone.
bonk and deadringer are better tanks than heavy[/QUOTE]
Well gee, it's almost like the concept for a tank item is to make the class tanky! Weird, and definitely doesn't exist in the game already, like the Targe.
Watch this video and stop saying dumb things please
[video=youtube;U7JPEiwD3S8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7JPEiwD3S8[/video]
the targe doesn't tank either ... lol. it makes the demo able to take one more pipe or 1-2 extra rockets, and doesn't affect bullets. that's nothing.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53047396]the targe doesn't tank either ... lol. it makes the demo able to take one more pipe or 1-2 extra rockets, and doesn't affect bullets.[/QUOTE]
Get this though....lol.... You can increase resistances! You know, like the numbers on item boxes?
Please don't make the next argument "but heavy will be too slow with his shield out" or something like that. It feels like you two are literally just throwing out whatever you can come up with that is contrarian to the idea actually existing without thinking it through. Shield = absorbs AOE splash. absorbs damage. Allows team to push through corridors and tight chokes without relying on ubers. Gives Heavy an alternate playstyle because he can use shotguns with the Shield out and can be an actual tank instead of just a mighty glacier, as tvtropes calls it.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;53047406]Get this though....lol.... You can increase resistances! You know, like the numbers on item boxes?
Please don't make the next argument "but heavy will be too slow with his shield out" or something like that.[/QUOTE]
what exactly do you suggest?
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53047416]what exactly do you suggest?[/QUOTE]
You posted after I edited, so I'll try and sum it up as best as I can to not flood the thread with my dumb ideas:
Replaces Primary
-Equipped through right click when used in loadout
-When equipped, Heavy is slowed (like when revved) but blocks in front of him and in a (somewhat small) area around him
-Can look up and down to shift shield like reinhardt
-Either Absorbs a certain amount of damage before breaking and absorbs basically all damage, or absorbs a certain fair amount of damage but not enough to make Heavy completely impervious (something like 80% bullet resistance, 70% direct explosive resistance, 60% flame resistance and immune to afterburn)
-Head is behind shield so Snipers can only headshot him when his shield isn't equipped, but he can still be backstabbed
-Absorbs AOE splash if a rocket or sticky or pipe hits the shield (up for debate) but doesn't absorb knockback and still gets knocked back, like ubered enemies do
-Can use shotgun or melee when shielded/"revved", giving a use to shotguns (like I said)
-Allows Heavy to be a tank while still dealing some damage (shotguns are fairly powerful), helps solve two big problems: Explosive classes reigning over hitscan classes, and tight corridors being dangerous to navigate because of projectile spam
The idea is to give Heavy an alternate playstyle, to alleviate the grip Demos and Soldiers tend to have in firefights, to soften some of Sniper's tight grip over kill power as a whole, to give Spy and Pyro a bit more strength in teamfights, and to solve the problem of maps like Dustbowl and Goldrush being hell to push through because of their tight corridors.
Shield on heavy just sounds a lot less fun than a proper new gun. I remember somebody suggesting a minigun replacement that's basically a big-ass anti-aircraft gun, that sounds like it could be cool. A mid to long range burst damage weapon. It could be fully automatic like the minigun, so he has to time his aiming to make sure the crosshair is on the enemy specifically when the rounds get launched.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53047432]Shield on heavy just sounds a lot less fun than a proper new gun.[/QUOTE]
Again, tanks do exist and have existed for years in video games. Just because it sounds like less fun to you doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun. Medic isn't fun but people still play him all the same
That being said, I would still be happy to at least get a new, unique Minigun. Heavy still needs variety in terms of weapons, and while a Riot Shield would be great for balance, Tomislav being the only non-garbage non-stock Minigun is a bummer
heavy's minigun is the only thing about him that allows him to viably fortify a position. A large shield, even one the size of a control point would never work because mobility in TF2 is so much faster, and all of the power classes are flank classes who move through the air and ground very quickly. TF2's level design is built around this. so holding up a fucking shield on mid is just a death sentence as the entire enemy team hits you from each side
[QUOTE=ikes;53047455]heavy's minigun is the only thing about him that allows him to viably fortify a position. A large shield, even one the size of a control point would never work because mobility in TF2 is so much faster, and all of the power classes are flank classes who move through the air and ground very quickly. TF2's level design is built around this. so holding up a fucking shield on mid is just a death sentence as the entire enemy team hits you from each side[/QUOTE]
It's almost like you've never heard of or played on A/D maps or the last points of 5CP maps where hard defenses and pushes are common and/or choose to willfully ignore them.
Also, "fortify a position" already exists with Engineers and their sentries.
Gun that shoots small, fast, high damage projectiles at a slow rate of fire; possibly with a slight arc and small splash radius.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53047254]Not sure I entirely understand your argument about these weapons. I think the issues with a lot of these weapons are completely different from one another to be honest and grouping them together doesn't make much sense.
Some storing weapons, like the banners, work pretty much the same as cooldown weapons like jarate, but more extreme. The bonuses of a buff banner are much larger than those of jarate, but it requires you to stay alive for a while near the front lines in order for you to make use of it. Bigger upside, but with a longer cooldown and a higher skill floor. This "banner" category encompasses stuff like the phlog, the frontier justice, ubercharge, all the soldier banners, and the diamondback. Generally speaking I don't think the "you're punishing me for someone else's mistakes" argument holds much water when referring to this category, because the weapon is inherently designed with the assumption that the player is going to periodically get a big bonus at the expense of being weaker for the rest of the time. Unless an engi is trash garbage he's going to get kills with his sentry, just like unless the soldier is trash garbage he's going to be dealing damage. You can focus them down when they don't have the bonus yet, or retreat when they're about to get the bonus. Phlog pyros and FJ engis are going to have a much harder time defending themselves with no airblast and -50% clip size respectively. The general design is perfectly reasonable.
The design problem some of these weapons have doesn't have to do with "punishing you for a teammates' mistake", the design problem comes from a completely unrelated issue of some of these weapons not telegraphing things well enough. FJ crits can be hidden by switching to another weapon, and unlike the banners they don't make a loud noise or require a separate animation to be activated. I gave a suggestion for how to change this a couple pages ago. Diamondback similarly doesn't telegraph things, and comes with the added issue of just being a fucking huge bonus. Being able to two shot everybody at long range is pretty nuts. Phlog is mostly alright imo, it's telegraphed well. The only issue is that the pyro can spam people with flares from the backline and get the crits without ever really taking any risks. That's also a completely different issue from the telegraphing concerns with the diamondback and FJ.
Meanwhile, there's a completely different class of weapons you're lumping in with these banner style weapons. Stuff like the eyelander, air strike, and the Bazaar Bargain that store heads work nothing like the banner weapons. They start out with a hefty downside, such as the bazaar bargain's -50% charge speed, the air strike's lower DPS and AoE or the eyelander's lower health (and implicit need to replace your stickybomb launcher to be effective). Then, the longer you stay alive, the stronger you get, until you gain a big permanent bonus. Now, with the eyelander, you actually still have downsides that make for a semi-reasonable tradeoff even at the strongest level of the weapon. The eyelander requires you to give up the stickybomb launcher to be effective. The others are pretty much just way better versions than stock when at the highest level. The counterplay is that if you kill them before they get to high levels, they end up worse off than if they had stock, but the problem is that once they get to high levels they're much, much harder to kill. Weapons with these design flaws are closer to the "punishing you for a teammates' mistake" issue that people complain about, since they're permanent buffs. You can't just retreat and wait for an Air strike soldier to lose his clip size buff, because the buff isn't going to go away until you kill him. Your teammates can basically remove the one big counterplay against these weapons by feeding the enemy before you have time to take them out. These weapons could probably some redesigns to make their buffs temporary.
tl;dr lumping all these weapons together as having the same problem makes no sense and ignores their actual design issues.[/QUOTE]
After reading this, yeah you are correct - even though I wouldnt call the phlog fine at all since its really annoying to play against and doesn't require any merit of skill - and while these things dont make it unbalanced, they certainly make the weapon really stupid which imo is enough to demand a change.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
