[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53055519]Okay. Want to play some Ammomod MGE, wait for the overheal to subside, and see who wins while we each stand still and hug the fence? I can give you a spoiler over who will prevail if you want.[/QUOTE]
stats indicate that unless you throw it heavy would still win that fight
So, what do you guys want to see out of the next update?
I personally would love to see Comp changes
[QUOTE=socks_;53055547]So, what do you guys want to see out of the next update?
I personally would love to see Comp changes[/QUOTE]
balance balance balance
pyro flame fix
and some fuking new arsenal of items for heavy cause everyone is fukin sick of miniguns and sandwiches
[QUOTE=socks_;53055547]So, what do you guys want to see out of the next update?
I personally would love to see Comp changes[/QUOTE]
- Heavy's update
-- Weapons that change up heavy's playstyle to add something fresh to the class ( Primaries that aren't miniguns would be a nice start )
- Bug fixes would be nice ( Flames particles not magically all registering as hits being the biggest one )
- Competitive match making update, which didn't really happen this update
- Competitive Pro version of maps introduced
- Further balance changes to weapons
Stuff like that personally...
[QUOTE=socks_;53055547]So, what do you guys want to see out of the next update?
I personally would love to see Comp changes[/QUOTE]
Heavy weapons and changes.
Pyro flames fix.
Changes to make some of Demo's unlocks (Loose Cannon, Caber, etc) useful beyond gimmicking in a pub.
Comp.
oh yeah woolen finally got to doing the detailed tests in a video that I couldn't be fucked to do
[video=youtube;cR2SaW-TPgs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR2SaW-TPgs[/video]
it's extremely informative and I highly recommend watching it
a few of the conclusions actually wound up surprising me, but Woolen and I still have the same conclusion: that the Revolver is the better option and the Ambassador is a downgrade for serious/competitive play.
[QUOTE=Contra132;53055539]stats indicate that unless you throw it heavy would still win that fight[/QUOTE]
He'd probably be playing DH Soldier in this context
[QUOTE=qubestf2;53055531]Literally said that couple hours ago. Stop talking about MGE, we're talking about normal gameplay situations here.
Maybe Valve should just start balancing tf2 by just testing everything in mge and ammomod, because you know, who cares about the ACTUAL real time gameplay.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, because it's really hard to hit a revved and strafing Heavy moving at 110 HU/s with a 1980 HU/s projectile.
[QUOTE=Contra132;53055539]stats indicate that unless you throw it heavy would still win that fight[/QUOTE]
Granted I haven't tested it since Jungle Inferno, but prior to that update, the DH would win the fight at the edges of the Ammomod map, which I would consider medium range.
[QUOTE=socks_;53055547]So, what do you guys want to see out of the next update?
I personally would love to see Comp changes[/QUOTE]
That flame particles bug should have been immediately hot fixed as the priority issue after the update.
I mean it's not like they wasted a year and half to fix pyro as the big selling point of this update, failed, and then didn't touch the thing during Halloween, smissmass, all the way up till now, right?
We demand answers. What the fuck is taking so long or more important?
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53055583]Granted I haven't tested it since Jungle Inferno, but prior to that update, the DH would win the fight at the edges of the Ammomod map, which I would consider medium range.[/QUOTE]
were any of heavy's bullets being eaten by colliding with the fence? that's the only reason I can think of for something like that to happen.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53055519]Okay. Want to play some Ammomod MGE, wait for the overheal to subside, and see who wins while we each stand still and hug the fence? I can give you a spoiler over who will prevail if you want.[/QUOTE]
AKA "1v1 me noob"
[QUOTE=Contra132;53055604]were any of heavy's bullets being eaten by colliding with the fence? that's the only reason I can think of for something like that to happen.[/QUOTE]
Well, Direct Hit does 140 damage at point-blank. It does 112 base damage. From the range it does exactly 100 damage, I have a feeling Heavy's dps, even with Tomislav, isn't enough to compete.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;53055587]That flame particles bug should have been immediately hot fixed as the priority issue after the update.
I mean it's not like they wasted a year and half to fix pyro as the big selling point of this update, failed, and then didn't touch the thing during Halloween, smissmass, all the way up till now, right?
We demand answers. What the fuck is taking so long or more important?[/QUOTE]
Likely fixing the flame hit detection will take nearly as much effort for the tf team to fix as it took to redo the flames in the first place. And they don't like talking about stuff in development that can change.
[QUOTE=Contra132;53055573]oh yeah woolen finally got to doing the detailed tests in a video that I couldn't be fucked to do
[video=youtube;cR2SaW-TPgs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR2SaW-TPgs[/video]
it's extremely informative and I highly recommend watching it
a few of the conclusions actually wound up surprising me, but Woolen and I still have the same conclusion: that the Revolver is the better option and the Ambassador is a downgrade for serious/competitive play.[/QUOTE]
man it's almost like the spy was never supposed to be headshotting people from across the map, almost like we already have a class specifically built for headshotting people across the map or something, really gets the noggin joggin'
while I agree the ambassador isn't exactly balanced with stock right now, it's still better than having spy being a 2nd sniper with the added ability to cloak and backstab, and if anything it's not like the ambassador is completely worthless, if anything I'd say it's just built for close to medium range burst damage instead of raw dps and all it needs is a slight buff by removing it's firing speed penalty at this point
IMO with DH's stats it should do less base damage than stock. Maybe give a bit of that blast radius back so it's useful in 6s. Also, remove the dumb "minicrit on classes launched by explosives" stat. If anything, stock deserves that stat instead since it's much more difficult to get an airshot with stock than DH. (but we shouldn't be buffing Soldier at all at the moment)
[editline]15th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=rolfum;53055622]man it's almost like the spy was never supposed to be headshotting people from across the map, almost like we already have a class specifically built for headshotting people across the map or something, really gets the noggin joggin'
while I agree the ambassador isn't exactly balanced with stock right now, it's still better than having spy being a 2nd sniper with the added ability to cloak and backstab, and if anything it's not like the ambassador is completely worthless, if anything I'd say it's just built for close to medium range burst damage instead of raw dps and all it needs is a slight buff by removing it's firing speed penalty at this point[/QUOTE]
yeah, these videos fail to address the importance of burst damage. just because you can't do a ton of damage over time with the ambassador doesn't mean the ability to do a single, instantaneous shot of ~90-102 is weak.
[QUOTE=rolfum;53055622]man it's almost like the spy was never supposed to be headshotting people from across the map, almost like we already have a class specifically built for headshotting people across the map or something, really gets the noggin joggin'
while I agree the ambassador isn't exactly balanced with stock right now, it's still better than having spy being a 2nd sniper with the added ability to cloak and backstab, and if anything it's not like the ambassador is completely worthless, if anything I'd say it's just built for close to medium range burst damage instead of raw dps and all it needs is a slight buff by removing it's firing speed penalty at this point[/QUOTE]
do you consider any of the ranges tested "across the map" though?
also the aim requirements for the ambassador vs the revolver simply do not stack up, at any range, to justify using it. unless you're literally aimbotting, the ambassador is a downgrade.
I'm ready to admit that unlimited-range 102s were problematic, but calling Spy a "second Sniper" is simply false. 102 burst damage versus anywhere from 150 to 450 does not stack up in the Spy's favor. If Unnerfed Ambassador were actually this powerful, then people would've been running Spy for the extra utility instead of Sniper. This never happened in 6s, and Sniper/Demo dominated Highlander even while Spies had an Unnerfed Ambassador.
I'm not arguing that the Ambassador didn't need nerfing, but a nerf to this extent has killed the weapon. I can't even run it as a for-fun option, because the fun I had with the Ambassador was testing and pushing my aim with it, and I can't do that anymore.
I also don't think that this is "better" than the previous situation, because Spy still wasn't overpowered and anyone dominating a pub with the Ambassador could do better with Scout or Sniper. Now the game's just...worse for Spy mains, 'cause fuck 'em.
Has the death of the Ambassador really improved your TF2 experience by any meaningful margin? I highly doubt it.
[editline]15th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53055627]yeah, these videos fail to address the importance of burst damage. just because you can't do a ton of damage over time with the ambassador doesn't mean the ability to do a single, instantaneous shot of ~90-102 is weak.[/QUOTE]
The range where you're doing that near-100 damage is where the Revolver is still better and easier to use.
Also, Ambassador headshots do 51 minimum damage, not 90.
Amby is much more balanced relative to the revolver than the Loose Cannon is balanced relative to pipes. Might seem like an odd comparison, but really they both are weapons that reward skill with burst damage.
Where the LC doesn't even come close to pipes at any point DoT-wise, Amby actually overtakes the revolver in the most likely scenario (midrange). That's perfectly ok, I'd love for LC to be in that territory. It might be considered viable at that point.
[QUOTE=Contra132;53055643]I'm ready to admit that unlimited-range 102s were problematic, but calling Spy a "second Sniper" is simply false. 102 burst damage versus anywhere from 150 to 450 does not stack up in the Spy's favor.[/QUOTE]
The difference is that there was never any risk for the Spy should he miss those headshots. Just cloak and find a new sightline to strike again from far out of reach, rinse and repeat. Meanwhile the Sniper gets ganged up on by anyone he doesn't kill quick enough.
[QUOTE=Contra132;53055643]Also, Ambassador headshots do 51 minimum damage, not 90. [/QUOTE]
The number 90 was a guess at the damage it would do at a still-favorable range, not the minimum damage.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53055660]The difference is that there was never any risk for the Spy should he miss those headshots. Just cloak and find a new sightline to strike again from far out of reach, rinse and repeat. Meanwhile the Sniper gets ganged up on by anyone he doesn't kill quick enough.[/QUOTE]
Was this happening at a high level of play, or was Sniper still dominating despite the inability to cloak?
For that matter, was Spy using these abilities at a high level to make anywhere close to the level of impact that a Sniper did?
(I'll spoil the answer to both of those questions for you: no, this wasn't happening at a high level of play. And lest I recall, you said yourself that this is what matters most when making balancing decisions.)
[editline]15th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Drury;53055655]Amby is much more balanced relative to the revolver than the Loose Cannon is balanced relative to pipes. Might seem like an odd comparison, but really they both are weapons that reward skill with burst damage.
Where the LC doesn't even come close to pipes at any point DoT-wise, Amby actually overtakes the revolver in the most likely scenario (midrange). That's perfectly ok, I'd love for LC to be in that territory. It might be considered viable at that point.[/QUOTE]
the loose cannon being a downgrade to pipes doesn't make the ambassador being a downgrade to the revolver okay
[QUOTE=Contra132;53055670]the loose cannon being a downgrade to pipes doesn't make the ambassador being a downgrade to the revolver okay[/QUOTE]
Yes, both weapons need massive (entire) reworks. I'm not sure what I'd do with the Loose Cannon, but I'd probably make Ambassador a more burst-damage focused Revolver with slightly less dps (not sure why dps seems to matter the most to you), with some other downside.
some stats pulled out of nowhere:
Ambassador
(+) 35% damage bonus
(-) 40% firing speed penalty
(-) 10% increased cloak and decloak fade time
that's 81 damage that you can instantly put into an enemy, no strings attached, vs the 60 you could do with the stock revolver. that doesn't make it "worse than stock".
and the version I made a while back, calling it the "knife utility" revolver, allowing you to switch from backstab to burst damage in an instant.
(+) This weapon deploys and holsters 50% faster
(+) 25% damage bonus
(-) 50% slower firing speed
(-) 100% increased disguise activation time
[QUOTE=Contra132;53055670]the loose cannon being a downgrade to pipes doesn't make the ambassador being a downgrade to the revolver okay[/QUOTE]
But it's not a downgrade to revolver?
How about just shorted the headshot cooldown on the Ambassador to reward aim?
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53055680]Yes, both weapons need massive (entire) reworks. I'm not sure what I'd do with the Loose Cannon, but I'd probably make Ambassador a more burst-damage focused Revolver with slightly less dps (not sure why dps seems to matter the most to you), with some other downside.
some stats pulled out of nowhere:
Ambassador
(+) 35% damage bonus
(-) 40% firing speed penalty
(-) 10% increased cloak and decloak fade time
that's 81 damage that you can instantly put into an enemy, no strings attached, vs the 60 you could do with the stock revolver. that doesn't make it "worse than stock".[/QUOTE]
I'd probably rather just use stock then...
Ambassador at least rewarded you for skill and upped the skill ceiling over all...
Maybe if I saw it in action....
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53055680]Yes, both weapons need massive (entire) reworks. I'm not sure what I'd do with the Loose Cannon, but I'd probably make Ambassador a more burst-damage focused Revolver with slightly less dps (not sure why dps seems to matter the most to you), with some other downside.[/QUOTE]
It's not a question of pure DPS. There's a ton of things to take into account here, and i'll line it up as best I can for your convenience.
First, bodyshots versus headshots. No human player is going to hit these with the same level of accuracy. The head is a much smaller target at any range, and that raises the likelihood of missing significantly. And, considering that most of what surrounds the head is...well, air, when you miss a headshot you're most likely to miss entirely and do no damage versus some damage.
The second is time. Waiting a second between shots means that's a second that the enemy is given to respond to you with their own fire or to dive into cover. It's a full second where you're not doing anything, and that matters in TF2. If Sniper begins an engagement with a headshot, he's killed most of the classes in the game and severely wounded the others. If Spy begins an engagement with a headshot, he hasn't killed anyone but a Kunai/Big Earner Spy, and has only managed to piss off whoever he just shot. The more health they have, the less likely he is to win.
There's no waiting involved with the Revolver. You aim, you hold down M1 at center-of-mass until you've got the kill. It's quick, it does plenty of damage, and it's [I]reliable[/I]. You're unlikely to miss. At midrange, random spread shouldn't cause your bullets to miss either, so you have no reason to wait for any kind of accuracy cooldown.
When the Ambassador did unlimited-range 102s, it made up for its weaknesses through sheer utility. It doesn't have the range advantage it used to over the Revolver anymore, though, so now it doesn't have any advantage at all. That's gotta make sense.
I'll give you two keys if you can find a high-level Spy (Plat/Prem, aka better than me) that still thinks the Ambassador is worth running over the Revolver in a serious environment and is still doing it. I can guarantee that you won't.
[QUOTE=Contra132;53055711]I'll give you two keys if you can find a high-level Spy (Plat/Prem, aka better than me) that still thinks the Ambassador is worth running over the Revolver in a serious environment and is still doing it. I can guarantee that you won't.[/QUOTE]
I don't think Ambassador is still strong. In fact, I've never once, ever, said the weapon was overpowered. We've been over this, what.. 3, 4 times now?
All I want is Ambassador to not headshot, and do something else that would be useful for the Spy.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53055730]I don't think Ambassador is still strong. In fact, I've never once, ever, said the weapon was overpowered. We've been over this, what.. 3, 4 times now?
All I want is Ambassador to not headshot, and do something else that would be useful for the Spy.[/QUOTE]
I'm still wondering why your so against giving the ambassador the ability to headshot. I could see the argument about it tripping over sniper's domain when it allowed you to headshot at range, but having a range cap now removes that issue as the spy can no longer snipe people.
You've brushed off this question several times too...
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53055730]I don't think Ambassador is still strong. In fact, I've never once, ever, said the weapon was overpowered. We've been over this, what.. 3, 4 times now?
All I want is Ambassador to not headshot, and do something else that would be useful for the Spy.[/QUOTE]
If the Ambassador can't headshot, then I have no interest in running it.
What made the weapon fun was pushing the limits of your aim without relying on a scope and being rewarded for it. Hell, I'd still run the Ambassador if I still got some kind of feedback for hitting headshots past its new "that doesn't count" range, but I don't and that range is pathetically small enough for me not to enjoy it anymore.
If I want to bodyshot people with Spy...I use Stock. And if they make the Ambassador a bodyshot gun with higher damage potential than Stock...that'll just be a straight upgrade. That was the Enforcer before its nerfs.
[QUOTE=Contra132;53055738]If the Ambassador can't headshot, then I have no interest in running it.
[/QUOTE]
So there's no utility useful for Spy that would make the thing worth running if it couldn't do headshots?
I've never been that good with the ambassador but it can twoshot light classes (one headshot+one bodyshot) at mid/close range. If you don't rely on your revolver a lot for DPS, being able to pick medics and any other light class that much faster isn't a bad tradeoff. I'm not in touch with the competitive spy meta so maybe Spy relies on revolver for self defense from heavier classes to enough of an extent that there's no reason to equip it in that setting, but there's certainly a playstyle in pubs you could take where the amby would be a better choice than revolver. One of Spy's most important jobs is to pick med, so a weapon that lets him do that about half a second faster can certainly be decisive.
I'm not saying the ambassador is in a good spot design wise right now, but I think it's being overdramatic to call stock a straight upgrade.
While I didn't think the Ambassador needed unlimited range headshots, I do think Valve went way too overboard with nerfing it (and the DR) in Jungle Inferno. Both weapons need to be buffed back up.
Ambassador probably could use something like 1.5 to 2 times the range of the current headshots and maybe do mini-crit headshots outside of that range.
DR needed something like not instantly losing half of the cloak meter on activation and possibly give it as small amount of cloak (maybe 10%) for performing backstabs. I would keep the no metal pickups to restore cloak feature since that could be too easily abused.
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