[QUOTE=CyclonatorZ;53071125]Objective-based gameplay is literally the reason I have stuck with TF2 for so long. The very game design encouraging players to work together even in a casual setting is the reason it is one of the best multiplayer FPS's of all time. And to argue that this core element of its design is somehow a bad thing is simply [I]madness.[/I][/QUOTE]
Yeah the well made core gameplay and design + good theme and setting + sense of humor = a good game that has lasted a decade.
I'd say expensive virtual items also contributes to that.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53071245][video=youtube;X1p42KtZOCw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw[/video]
Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
I like this video, but the B.A.S.E. Jumper has since been rebanned in 6s, so I guess either the weapon is at its core flawed, or the change in JI wasn't enough.
I know he says he's not being political, but I don't like how he makes trickle-down economics sound even slightly good :v:
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53071255]I like this video, but the B.A.S.E. Jumper has since been rebanned in 6s, so I guess either the weapon is at its core flawed, or the change in JI wasn't enough.
I know he says he's not being political, but I don't like how he makes trickle-down economics sound even slightly good :v:[/QUOTE]
Dane replies to this comment "the difference is that your trickle-down system works, the real one DOESNT!•" with this "Millennial high-five! eats avocado toast in a cardboard box•" don't know what Dane thinks about it.
Also for the BASE Jumper, what if it locked air control and air movement when deployed, so you can't change direction when using it at all?
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53071266]
Also for the BASE Jumper, what if it locked air control and air movement when deployed, so you can't change direction when using it at all?[/QUOTE]
it would be entirely worthless in that case. i think it should be a passive item that opens automatically as you start falling, and slows your fall just enough that you don't take fall damage. but you can't open or close it at will
For any of you who haven't did offensive classes for your contracts yet, don't pick the phlog contract its a fucking trap.
I can't believe uncle dane is an oppressor of the proletariat
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53071255]I like this video, but the B.A.S.E. Jumper has since been rebanned in 6s, so I guess either the weapon is at its core flawed, or the change in JI wasn't enough.[/QUOTE]
it'll never "work" for comp. airshots are fun and people want to see them happen, be it on either team or for spectators. you don't design an unlock to nullify something that's both very difficult and spectacular in the first place.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53071283]I can't believe uncle dane is an oppressor of the proletariat[/QUOTE]
Uncle Dane the Bourgoise Main
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53071313]it'll never "work" for comp. airshots are fun and people want to see them happen, be it on either team or for spectators. you don't design an unlock to nullify something that's both very difficult and spectacular in the first place.[/QUOTE]
I figure the weapon was made to allow the jumping Soldier to stay above the enemy, though, to increase the efficiency of the bomb (+ it was pretty much designed around Air Strike)
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53071245][video=youtube;X1p42KtZOCw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw[/video]
Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
i thought this was all well agreed upon here. you should always balance around the highest level of skill if you want actual diversity in your game
it was nice to see a video on it, as i know most casual or new players dont quite always understand this
[QUOTE=ShimTaco;53071120][t]https://i.imgur.com/38hRyfO.png[/t]
[t]https://i.imgur.com/ZCiaGZ5.png[/t]
anyone else get this glitch? the unusual appears in my stomach no matter the adjust settings[/QUOTE]
Remove the unusual slider.
Also, many unusuals aren't properly rigged with particle effects, and don't draw correctly because lol valve.
The patriot peak has this problem, as do most of the new all classes and whatnot. New effects too.
Yeah, for some reason adjusting magnetic hat protector on my demoman causes it to just die, even though it still works on all the other classes.
I guess my hat is racist.
[QUOTE]...my criticisms of game modes such as 5CP and the maps that are constructed around linear progression should not be dismissed purely because of what I personally spend my time doing in the game. I genuinely disagree with the concept of maps restricting players and manipulating their movements toward manufactured combat encounters. Instead, I prefer a more organic and open-ended approach to establishing rules and objectives, one that allows for multiple objective points around an area that allows for fluid and relatively unimpaired movement. Control Points as an idea do not need to function on a linear progression system, as games like Battlefield and Battlefront have exemplified. Yes, those games operate on a larger scale, but maps like Standin have adapted this philosophy well enough as a proof of concept.
What you're saying is that you like that the game holds the hands of the players and forces them to play in a particular way--that's a very cynical approach. The game should encourage player cooperation by imbuing within them a desire to work toward its objectives, a desire they develop on their own without the map funneling them into choke points and team fights. When I play on most 5CP maps, I feel like a sheep, with the map as my shepherd.[/QUOTE]
None of this has to do with liking playing DM in TF2. It's a terrible fallacy to commit if you're judging someone's argument on what they play primarily. Yes, I prefer DM.
[B]No, I don't want the totality of TF2 and its playerbase to adopt mindless TDM as its primary mode of play. Don't misrepresent and straw man.[/B]
[QUOTE=ShimTaco;53071120][t]https://i.imgur.com/38hRyfO.png[/t]
[t]https://i.imgur.com/ZCiaGZ5.png[/t]
anyone else get this glitch? the unusual appears in my stomach no matter the adjust settings[/QUOTE]
give it 9~ months and the problem will fix itself alongside of you getting a new item
Does the "(Contract Points Contributed To Friends)" thing on the contracker work?
[QUOTE=SirGentlemann;53071278]For any of you who haven't did offensive classes for your contracts yet, don't pick the phlog contract its a fucking trap.[/QUOTE]
Get a friend in your lobby, let him pocket you, queue for dustbowl
You'll get it done by the end of a full defense game
I didn't pick that contract but I was helping my friend to do it, didn't really take long
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53071389]None of this has to do with liking playing DM in TF2. It's a terrible fallacy to commit if you're judging someone's argument on what they play primarily. Yes, I prefer DM. No, I don't want to totality of TF2 and its playerbase to adopt mindless TDM as its primary mode of play. Don't misrepresent and straw man.[/QUOTE]
"The map design you're arguing for all maps to adopt has been shown to result in poor teamplay, making the core gameplay of TF2 worse"
"Why are you just calling me out for liking DM, what's with all the STRAWMAN???"
are you for real
Played Casual (and by extension TF2) for the first time in 4 months, because my fan decided to sporadically start working mildly for about an hour. Played Sunshine and Viaduct. It's really satisfying to get that Uber in last with a few people murdering the enemy team as the rest of the team floods in after realizing they're not getting hit. It's like playing a game of old iron 6s, but with double the players, constant offclassing, and a usual lack of knowledge of when to push and when to back off. With double the randomness and chance that a Spy will backstab you and a Pyro will come through the flank and kill you in an instant.
The Viaduct game was awful though. Nobody came to me for heals, and there was a Pyro/Medic gaybro relationship that got me killed often. Much of this has to do with the fact that Casual players don't know how to play koth (when you're losing, sacrifice yourself with your teammates, get a couple of picks, respawn with your team and push together)
All of this was happening in like 20-40 fps though. My new computer (when the parts get here in about a week and I build it) will run the game at a constant 60 fps. Then I'll finally be able to start having fun, playing actual competitive (UGC probably, if I can find a team), and getting good.
Fun stuff.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53071476]"The map design you're arguing for all maps to adopt has been shown to result in poor teamplay, making the core gameplay of TF2 worse"
"Why are you just calling me out for liking DM, what's with all the STRAWMAN???"
are you for real[/QUOTE]
It would only result in poor team play if the players themselves aren't provided with enough incentive on their own to engage in team play. If team play needs to be thrust upon us through rigid, linear map design in order to get us to engage in it, then there's something wrong with the game on a more fundamental level. What you're arguing is that it's human nature to ignore both objectives and teammates if allowed to do so; if that's true (and I don't think it is), then what does that say about the concept of team oriented, objective-based games overall?
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53071503]It would only result in poor team play if the players themselves aren't provided with enough incentive on their own to engage in team play. If team play needs to be thrust upon us through rigid, linear map design in order to get us to engage in it, then there's something wrong with the game on a more fundamental level. What you're arguing is that it's human nature to ignore both objectives and teammates if allowed to do so; if that's true (and I don't think it is), then what does that say about the concept of team oriented, objective-based games overall?[/QUOTE]
Nonlinear map design usually gives too much power to Snipers. Nonlinear map design also keeps players from playing the objective in *casual* gameplay. Can you give an example of a nonlinear map design that competitive players actually play a lot of at the moment?
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53071491]Played Casual (and by extension TF2) for the first time in 4 months, because my fan decided to sporadically start working mildly for about an hour. Played Sunshine and Viaduct. It's really satisfying to get that Uber in last with a few people murdering the enemy team as the rest of the team floods in after realizing they're not getting hit. It's like playing a game of old iron 6s, but with double the players, constant offclassing, and a usual lack of knowledge of when to push and when to back off. With double the randomness and chance that a Spy will backstab you and a Pyro will come through the flank and kill you in an instant.
The Viaduct game was awful though. Nobody came to me for heals, and there was a Pyro/Medic gaybro relationship that got me killed often. Much of this has to do with the fact that Casual players don't know how to play koth (when you're losing, sacrifice yourself with your teammates, get a couple of picks, respawn with your team and push together)
All of this was happening in like 20-40 fps though. My new computer (when the parts get here in about a week and I build it) will run the game at a constant 60 fps. Then I'll finally be able to start having fun, playing actual competitive (UGC probably, if I can find a team), and getting good.
Fun stuff.[/QUOTE]
I'm so sorry you just built a new computer, RAM and GPU prices are so high right now.
I'm planning on building a new computer soon but decided to wait a few months to see how the new Ryzen chips perform for their price compared to Intel and hope RAM/GPU prices come down.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53071503]It would only result in poor team play if the players themselves aren't provided with enough incentive on their own to engage in team play. If team play needs to be thrust upon us through rigid, linear map design in order to get us to engage in it, then there's something wrong with the game on a more fundamental level. What you're arguing is that it's human nature to ignore both objectives and teammates if allowed to do so; if that's true (and I don't think it is), then what does that say about the concept of team oriented, objective-based games overall?[/QUOTE]
The map design you're proposing encourages poor team play because in most of the maps you're so fond of, players literally cannot work as a cohesive team. It's part of the design. Even if you play the objective it's designed to discourage teamfights. Standin makes you attack/defend three control points at once. The majority of the team literally cannot work together or they'll lose the other two points. Doomsday makes you defend the australium spawn zone and the tower itself. If you don't have half your team on each one you won't be able to cap. Hightower makes you defend a payload at your spawn while you're pushing another payload at the enemy spawn. Nucleus has a single objective, but still suffers from the structural problem all these other maps have where there's like three spawn exits that all point to three completely different routes that never converge, so teams don't congregate in any particular area. Lack of teamplay is a core part of the design of these maps.
Team play doesn't necessarily mean creating tightly-knit formations like football players. In war, the deployment of different units to advantageous positions during a battle does not break with the concept of cooperation. We've moved past the age of rank and file, sending masses of grouped soldiers to their deaths like two cars in a head-on collision. TF2 also does not have to be like that in order to encourage team-based gameplay; there does not need to be this idea of a "cohesive team" that holds hands the entire time with a Medic in tow providing constant buffs. What do you see in having two gestalts butt heads?
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;53071527]The map design you're proposing encourages poor team play because in most of the maps you're so fond of, players literally cannot work as a cohesive team. It's part of the design. Even if you play the objective it's designed to discourage teamfights. Standin makes you attack/defend three control points at once. The majority of the team literally cannot work together or they'll lose the other two points. Doomsday makes you defend the australium spawn zone and the tower itself. If you don't have half your team on each one you won't be able to cap. Hightower makes you defend a payload at your spawn while you're pushing another payload at the enemy spawn. Nucleus has a single objective, but still suffers from the structural problem all these other maps have where there's like three spawn exits that all point to three completely different routes that never converge, so teams don't congregate in any particular area. Lack of teamplay is a core part of the design of these maps.[/QUOTE]
Those maps might work in 12v12, but in 6v6 you can't just have groups of 2 or 3 defend each section or objective or whatever. It doesn't work.
Not to mention the problems with some of those maps, where playing the objective is directly discouraged by being surrounded by a ton of high ground and open space for enemies to play in (Harvest being a massive offender).
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53071539]Team play doesn't necessarily mean creating tightly-knit formations like football players, the coordination of positioning and strategic map control can also result in teamwork. In war, the deployment of different units to advantageous positions in the middle of a battle does not break with the concept of cooperation.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't address my central point, which is that this map design philosphy results in little to no team fights, which are the core gameplay of tf2.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53071539]Team play doesn't necessarily mean creating tightly-knit formations like football players. In war, the deployment of different units to advantageous positions during a battle does not break with the concept of cooperation. We've moved past the age of rank and file, sending masses of grouped soldiers to their deaths like two cars in a head-on collision. TF2 also does not have to be like that in order to encourage team-based gameplay.[/QUOTE]
When those units are of only 2-3 people, gameplay starts to break down.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;53071503]It would only result in poor team play if the players themselves aren't provided with enough incentive on their own to engage in team play. If team play needs to be thrust upon us through rigid, linear map design in order to get us to engage in it, then there's something wrong with the game on a more fundamental level. What you're arguing is that it's human nature to ignore both objectives and teammates if allowed to do so; if that's true (and I don't think it is), then what does that say about the concept of team oriented, objective-based games overall?[/QUOTE]
people arent "ganging up" on you for liking DM or anything, people are smonking you because you are criticizing a vital part of what makes tf2 tf2 for many as "bad" and also went as far as quite literally called 3 of the most popular gamemodes trash with "bad map design" - insulting map developers aswell
you are free to play the game as you want to and tf2 allows for niches like your liking of "non team play unless people do it ~themselves~" but demanding the entire game to bend around such a nature is very drastic for a lot of people
as far as chokepoints go, people usually see good chokes and bad ones. bad ones are the classic ol' dustbowl "16x16 unit corridor with maybe if you are lucky 5x5 single flank hallway" while good chokes offer large flank routes making them less stupid and playable for more classes and playstyles
lets just say it like this, it isnt a coincidence that people prefer upward and process over doomsday lol
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